MG recoil - TW Please read
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It's a direct translation from a Dutch figure of speach. It means pulling thigs out of your @ss
It's a direct translation from a Dutch figure of speach. It means pulling thigs out of your @ss
Busted, I thought they used it too
In that case, you simply didn't read the thread I linked in this thread as an example.
Users Remington & DAT posted interesting info in the thread that should clear few points. Especially on how MG3 performs and how easy it is to get two within top two percent of the soldiers with MG. What comes to me I am as well serving with the reserves and qualified as shooting instructor for the army, and I am also part time firearms instructor on civilian side and a competition shooter on national level.
Users Remington & DAT posted interesting info in the thread that should clear few points. Especially on how MG3 performs and how easy it is to get two within top two percent of the soldiers with MG. What comes to me I am as well serving with the reserves and qualified as shooting instructor for the army, and I am also part time firearms instructor on civilian side and a competition shooter on national level.
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He means you're making it up, which I would tend to agree with since I have fired MGs in real life and I can tell you that the ingame recoil is not realistic; there is too much muzzle climb ingame, in real life there is very little of this.
MG34 - YouTube
MG-34 - YouTube
Girl firing with mg-34 part 2 - YouTube
Fine, go fire the MG then and tell me that you can get better accuracy in real life compared to the game. Do the Spartanovka test I just suggested for reference ingame, then put up with real life comparison at same range. Should be easy enough...
This is not a subjective, but objective issue. There is no need for I feel this or feel that. Only ability to shoot accurately matters, right? Nobody said MG's are uncontrollable, as you seem to imply. We have been comparing real life results to those achievable in game. Why don't you leave the youtube BS and do the same?
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Nice try at diverting from the original subject Jippo.
Nobody was talking about accuracy, we were talking about muzzle climb, and anyone who has experience firing a MG in real life will emmidiately be able to tell that there is too much muzzle climb ingame.
In short: The real life MG's certainly have a good amount of recoil to them, no doubt, but it goes straight back and as such there is very little muzzle climb.
Not sure what else you'd expect either... or do you honestly believe that the front end of the barrel will actually lift itself up along with the bipod ? Or that the buttstock will force its' way downward into the ground somehow? Reason I'm asking is that one of the two has to happen for there to occur any form of muzzle climb when shooting from a prone position.
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Please read all my posts in this thread and the thread I linked to this thread. You are asking me to repeat myself because I have discussed the points you raise. And I do think I have discussed them in very reasonable way that should make sense to you.
Please find the pictures representing DP-28 video that was originally used as "there is no upward component recoil" in real life that was shown to have considerable amount of it. This also explains why the videos you showed as an example of recoil are bad examples that could be easily dismissed.
Read what I wrote about torsion and perception, gaming sight picture vs. real life as to why it looks funny in game.
Read also the comment of a bipod deployment vs. direction of barrel turn in rearward recoil. (Although this applies only to the guns with swivel bipods like the MG34 and I understand DP-28 has a fixed bipod.) You will notice that any amount of "direct" (which it isn't, really as no gun is absolutely symmetric) rearward recoil will develop a torsional component because human body will move in recoil.
This issue is discussed because the game viewpoint is somewhat different to real world and people forget that rearward recoil will tilt the gun to the direction of least opposition. Tilting/turning of the gun is what causes the accuracy detoriarate.
In the end this discussion boils down to practical accuracy. Why? Because that is why people claim there is too much recoil: they can not hit enemy soldiers with MG's the way they think they should. I am here to say that in game gamer accuracy is similar to real life soldier accuracy. Only way to measure accuracy is to test fire the guns in game and compare to real world results.
As I said earlier upward recoil is IMHO a good gaming compromise for the reasons I stated. It only makes controlling the gun easier as it is a know direction unlike in real life. I find controlling the gun more difficult with mouse than my whole body, so I will welcome this "helper". The developers could have introduced just simple scatter to the LMG's on fully automatic to bring realistic accuracy, but now they have guns that have realistic (good) accuracy and challenging controllability (comparable to real world with my skills) with which they achieve realistic results. In real life I need to know how to use my body to get consistant groups at 150m with a MG, in game I need to pull my mouse down slowly to get consistant groups at 150m. Groups are the same size, both methods require skill (be that shooting skills or nerd skills), what is the problem?
Please find the pictures representing DP-28 video that was originally used as "there is no upward component recoil" in real life that was shown to have considerable amount of it. This also explains why the videos you showed as an example of recoil are bad examples that could be easily dismissed.
Read what I wrote about torsion and perception, gaming sight picture vs. real life as to why it looks funny in game.
Read also the comment of a bipod deployment vs. direction of barrel turn in rearward recoil. (Although this applies only to the guns with swivel bipods like the MG34 and I understand DP-28 has a fixed bipod.) You will notice that any amount of "direct" (which it isn't, really as no gun is absolutely symmetric) rearward recoil will develop a torsional component because human body will move in recoil.
This issue is discussed because the game viewpoint is somewhat different to real world and people forget that rearward recoil will tilt the gun to the direction of least opposition. Tilting/turning of the gun is what causes the accuracy detoriarate.
In the end this discussion boils down to practical accuracy. Why? Because that is why people claim there is too much recoil: they can not hit enemy soldiers with MG's the way they think they should. I am here to say that in game gamer accuracy is similar to real life soldier accuracy. Only way to measure accuracy is to test fire the guns in game and compare to real world results.
As I said earlier upward recoil is IMHO a good gaming compromise for the reasons I stated. It only makes controlling the gun easier as it is a know direction unlike in real life. I find controlling the gun more difficult with mouse than my whole body, so I will welcome this "helper". The developers could have introduced just simple scatter to the LMG's on fully automatic to bring realistic accuracy, but now they have guns that have realistic (good) accuracy and challenging controllability (comparable to real world with my skills) with which they achieve realistic results. In real life I need to know how to use my body to get consistant groups at 150m with a MG, in game I need to pull my mouse down slowly to get consistant groups at 150m. Groups are the same size, both methods require skill (be that shooting skills or nerd skills), what is the problem?
I know what you are trying to say.....
I am not against recoil as stated numerous times, that s fine.
I am stating that a jumping recoil like the MG34 has, is making shooting uncontrolable and takes away a skill to master from the players and instead puts it into the hand of a roleplaying like experience where it magically gets reduced/disapears when leveling up.
Your argument that it needs to be in as a gameplay mechanism is only right to a certain extend as when you level up it get s reduced drastically and still MG's are far from overpowered.On the DP-28 the side spread get s reduced artifically through leveling, there isn't something to learn or master aswell.
This jumping recoil is just completely wrong and gay in my opinion because it,
1.) takes away the skill factor one has to master because the jumping recoil just isn t controlable,there isn't something to master.
2.) Is putting this skill factor into a leveling system that is changing weapon handling artifically through the leveling system.
I want the challenge to control a recoil.Heck, i love it! Problem is the jumping recoil is like a artifical bullet spread that forces you to shoot a certain way depending on your level because you simply cant hold down the trigger before the jumping recoil kicks in.It s not controlable, there is no skill to master.There is nothing to learn, it s just a dumbed down roleplaying like mechanism.
I am not against recoil as stated numerous times, that s fine.
I am stating that a jumping recoil like the MG34 has, is making shooting uncontrolable and takes away a skill to master from the players and instead puts it into the hand of a roleplaying like experience where it magically gets reduced/disapears when leveling up.
Your argument that it needs to be in as a gameplay mechanism is only right to a certain extend as when you level up it get s reduced drastically and still MG's are far from overpowered.On the DP-28 the side spread get s reduced artifically through leveling, there isn't something to learn or master aswell.
This jumping recoil is just completely wrong and gay in my opinion because it,
1.) takes away the skill factor one has to master because the jumping recoil just isn t controlable,there isn't something to master.
2.) Is putting this skill factor into a leveling system that is changing weapon handling artifically through the leveling system.
I want the challenge to control a recoil.Heck, i love it! Problem is the jumping recoil is like a artifical bullet spread that forces you to shoot a certain way depending on your level because you simply cant hold down the trigger before the jumping recoil kicks in.It s not controlable, there is no skill to master.There is nothing to learn, it s just a dumbed down roleplaying like mechanism.
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Thank you for that! I was already doubting my ability to write coherent and understandable english.
Re. your point on the jumping recoil: I have not quite yet understood what the leveling system really does with the MG class. I was a hero before reset, but on the other hand I had much less experience with RO2 so it is a hard comparison. I myself don't mind the vibration bit as that seems to be just random movement around the aim point (which will return to the centre when trigger is released) adding a bit of horisontal spread. The controllable part of the recoil is really only the upward component that can be countered simply by moving the mouse slightly back. Does leveling up affect both or just the other?
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Problem is that the "torsion" (torque) effect you're talking about has an absolute minimal effect whilst firing a MG from the prone position. Why? Because the recoil has no moment arm to act upon in order to make you tilt backwards like when shooting from a standing or crouching position, which is what causes muzzle climb.
Interestingly they got this almost completely right in RO1, where when firing the MG42 for example you'd see the recoil kick the gun back into your shoulder and the sight picture vibrate abit, however there would be very little if any muzzle climb.
Anyway regarding real life accuracy vs ingame accuracy, I can guarantee you that in reality you'll be able to maintain a much lower vertical spread of your bullets than ingame where the barrel heads skywards.
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This is a two way issue, please refer below:
1. There is a moment arm, the bipod. On guns that have solid like DP28 (as in opposite to swivel mounted) bipods it is straightforward. If the bottom is fixed solidly to the ground and top to the gun the gun will tilt up when the gun moves straight to the rear in recoil. On swivel bipods one has to be very conscious as how to place the bipod legs, as that will directly affect the direction the barrel will turn in rearward recoil. Legs forward and the barrel turns downwards, legs rearwards and the barrel turns up. This brings us to the next point.
2. Gunners shoulder will move. It will move towards rear mostly, but it will also move up, down and/or sideways depending on shooters body dimensions and stance. This is unavoidable, but skill dependant meaning that a good gunner will have less movement. There is also the point that the gunner can adjust the placement of the swivel bipod based on previous experience in such way that the buttstock and the tip of the barrel will move synchronous in vertical axis keeping the gun level whilst firing greatly increasing ability to control recoil (and thus accuracy). Stupid sentence, but it means that the buttstock will move just as much as the barrel.
Again, movement isn't a problem when the gun's orientation does not change and the gun stays pointing exactly in the original direction. Even if the gun magically jumps up 10cm whilst remaining in the right direction one will miss the bullseye only by 10cm. But if rear sight will move 1cm in relation of the frontsight that stays solidly still the shot will miss by 100cm at 100m distance (provided 1m sight distance). Given that the normal LMG sight distance is somewhat shorter than that, there is also a lot more movement in most of the youtube vids posted here. That simply means these guys weren't getting that good results with their recoil management (and accuracy).
Fully automatic weapons are really fun to shoot, but there is a lot one has to do to keep them in the bullseye.
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We must have been watching different videos you and I, cause I certainly don't see the rear sight "move 1cm in relation of the frontsight that stays solidly still". I see the whole gun move, the recoil kicking directly back into the guys shoulder, where his reaction to the recoil will determine wether the point of aim will rise or fall. It's not like ingame where the muzzle just start climbing right away, as if the buttstock was somehow being pressed downwards.
Anyway, we keep talking past the point here, which is that real life MGs don't have the same high vertical spread that the ingame MGs do. The machine gun play was a lot more realistic in RO1.
Red Orchestra Ost Front 41-45: Gameplay - YouTube
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At least on the second video they guys elbow rises up some 5 to 10cms compared to the shooting table...
But that is not the point really. I just simply have stated that these youtube videos don't proof anything, because a movement size of a single pixel can through of aim a great deal. And I have better things to do than point out those pixels to people. Impressions given by a video showing the shooter are misleading and hard to judge as we have seen.
If you want to prove something, please find a target people have shot. Or at least a video that shows a target being shot from a know distance. Find a group a shooter can do with an mg. Only that shows what they are capable of. Even videos that have the same perspective as the game are not good because they can not be reliably quantified for accuracy. Films like these just show the guy is firing all over the place (and filmed from the side people would use them as examples of no recoil):
Shooting the Russian PKM Machine Gun - YouTube
Shooting the Type 98 Machine gun - YouTube
I did a quick google but I didn't find anything worthwhile, maybe you have better luck. But my experience is that 1x1 meter target is often too small for PKM gunners at 150, range conditions. Remington's experience was that it is extremely difficult to get second bullet from MG3 within 30cm at 150m in range conditions.
Really? You got a link?
In my experience the first two rounds out of the MG42 (basically same as MG3) are very tightly grouped thanks to the high RoF, whilst the next few shots disperse the furthest thanks to the initial recoil then being felt. After that you get back on target again and keeping the rest of the rounds within a 50x50 cm circle at 150 m is possible.
It could be that Remington fired the MG3 with a heavy bolt ofcourse.
i'll just add my two pennies worth.
i am a member of a ww2 red army living history group, i have over the last few years fired all the red army weapons in this game for real, and some of the german ones too. my findings from live firing...
ppsh41, surprisingly accurate, even at longer ranges. very little recoil, no upward lift at all.
dp28, when firing from the hip - very easy to control! when lying down (not kneeling like the guy in the video earlier!) fair bit of recoil, no upward lift, very accurate.
maxim hmg, no upward lift - it only moves when you make it move! carriage keeps it steady and absorbs all recoil and very accurate.
mp40, very little recoil, no upward lift unless firing from the hip.
mg34, similar performance to the dp28
i found the performance of the weapons in this game to be very unrealistic. is there a way of controlling this in the game? a button i have to press? this unrealistic recoil is making the game very difficult for me!
i am a member of a ww2 red army living history group, i have over the last few years fired all the red army weapons in this game for real, and some of the german ones too. my findings from live firing...
ppsh41, surprisingly accurate, even at longer ranges. very little recoil, no upward lift at all.
dp28, when firing from the hip - very easy to control! when lying down (not kneeling like the guy in the video earlier!) fair bit of recoil, no upward lift, very accurate.
maxim hmg, no upward lift - it only moves when you make it move! carriage keeps it steady and absorbs all recoil and very accurate.
mp40, very little recoil, no upward lift unless firing from the hip.
mg34, similar performance to the dp28
i found the performance of the weapons in this game to be very unrealistic. is there a way of controlling this in the game? a button i have to press? this unrealistic recoil is making the game very difficult for me!
That guy shoots with one hand and the buttstock not pressed against his shoulder. Not a good way to show proper recoil...
I would suggest to rather look at the impacts, because as said, the way the gun moves can be deceiving.
Here is a video of the Bren and Bar at 90 meters, look at that tight groupings...
Pratical Accuray of Bren Gun and Browning Automatic Rifle BAR - YouTube
But yeah, this is youtube warfare at its finest. Just wanted to throw that in. As I cannot play the game properly right now, I can
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