MG needs it's presence to be greater

[Luckless]

My personal issues with the MG. (Have been playing dedicated MG all week when I can.)

1. Lack of a Melee attack. If I get caught in the middle of reloading, a rifleman who pops around the corner on me shouldn't simply get a free bayonet kill because it is slow to draw the pistol. I'm holding several kg of hardened steel, and should be able to bash the guy's head in.

2. Being blocked from aiming further. Player models need to be able to get in tighter with walls, and the character should shift the barrel left/right as needed to aim further.

3. The machine gun should be 'deployable' anywhere you can brace a normal weapon. I can accept if there is more shake or something if you're simply supporting the barrel against the corner of a window or post, but we should still be able to accurately sight in.

4. Muzzle jump on/after first shot. It is excessive, annoying, and destroys player's fear of machine guns due to lowered first shot accuracy.

 

[Teufel Hund]

I agree with others, recoil really needs to be less with MG's.

Penetration should be much better as well. Brick walls do not stop rifle caliber bullets. This video demonstrates quite well how little cover buildings actually provide. Keep in mind that these are modern rounds, which in many cases are lighter rounds with less penetration. Pay particular attention the beginning of the second video when they fire the M240.


Concealment does NOT equal Cover, Pt. 1 - YouTube

Concealment does NOT equal Cover Pt 2. - YouTube

 

[beh0lder]

the machine gun should be able to deployed quickly anywhere to keep up with the rest of your team and actually do the job. You should be to deploy or lean the gun on anything to quickly setup and lay down fire. They need to work out the system in some way to give the gunner more freedom while deployed to achieve this.

 

[beh0lder]

m240 making 2 inch entry holes in brick and keeps on going, that the kind of penetration I would like to see in RO2 with an MG, the mg34 is also a higher caliber than the 240 and they have roughly the same muzzle velocity as well. Also Jippofin, in afghanistan targets have been effectively engaged by shoulder fired m240's from up to 1200 meters, so your talk about not being able to shoulder fire a LMG unsupported is a total joke, are you a weapons instructor or a 92 sierra? btw i have videographic proof PM me if you want to see.

 

[hishnik]

You have got to be absolutely kidding me.
43 posts, of which only four have any mention of DP-28, and if anything only one has serious mention about it? Why do people keep *****ing about German weapons, that are as is overpowered? Do you just want to bring in realism? For a change try playing the other side, see how the other shoes feel.

You want to talk about MG presence being great, talk about German snipers using MG to snipe folks 150m+ by performing the single shot fire? Play Fallen fighters, or Commisars house as a Russian, biggest question you'll have is was i killed by a tank AI or was that the human MG sniper?

Or perhaps we should bring up such posts as:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=67752#2
"

Range - Long

The LMG is basically a fully-automatic sniper. Learn to control the recoil and fire in short, controlled bursts. Adjust your sights for maximum effectiveness. You'll do best between 75-150m (at least, that's where most of my kills are).

Bottom line: Before trying to implement some certain changes to one particular weapon, try to use it's counterparts. Otherwise you run into posts like this, and the other one i saw recently talking about how unfair it is to have MKB being ruined by the scope... Oh boo effin hooo, cry me a river.

 

[DAT]

Shoulder fired at targets to 1200 meters? Very difficult to see anything at 1200 meters with a MG. Tracer burnout for NATO 7.62 is around 900m and the ARC to the actual beaten zone is quite high and the sights on the M240 do not compensate that far. you dont shoulder fire a M240, there is a alternate firing position called the assault position per FM 3-22.68 if you want to see what it looks like. Active Army here since 93.

 

[beh0lder]

I have proof if you would like to see, javelin was fired at a road that was constantly called in so i'm positive the distance is 1200meters followed by shoulder fire from the m240 gunner finishing them off from an elevated position on the mountain range at 1200 meters.

 

[Teufel Hund]

You have got to be absolutely kidding me.
43 posts, of which only four have any mention of DP-28, and if anything only one has serious mention about it? Why do people keep *****ing about German weapons, that are as is overpowered? Do you just want to bring in realism? For a change try playing the other side, see how the other shoes feel.

You want to talk about MG presence being great, talk about German snipers using MG to snipe folks 150m+ by performing the single shot fire? Play Fallen fighters, or Commisars house as a Russian, biggest question you'll have is was i killed by a tank AI or was that the human MG sniper?

This can be done just as easily with the DP-28 firing 2 or 3 shot bursts.

Bottom line: Before trying to implement some certain changes to one particular weapon, try to use it's counterparts. Otherwise you run into posts like this, and the other one i saw recently talking about how unfair it is to have MKB being ruined by the scope... Oh boo effin hooo, cry me a river.

I think a lot of the posts actually apply to both MG's, even if the DP-28 isn't specifically mentioned. They both have too much recoil, and not enough penetration. I feel that just changing those two factors would make MG's something to be feared in RO2.

 

[Josef Nader]

I think a lot of the posts actually apply to both MG's, even if the DP-28 isn't specifically mentioned. They both have too much recoil, and not enough penetration. I feel that just changing those two factors would make MG's something to be feared in RO2.

The DP-28's biggest advantage over the MG34 is it's utter lack of recoil. The thing is so freaking easy to control you have no idea. I actually -greatly- prefer the DP to the MG. The drum may be smaller, and I may not get the big ammo upgrades, but I can put almost every shot on target thanks to the lower RoF.

The MG34 is spitting out 800 rounds per minute. The DP "only" spits out something like 500. It's a lot more manageable.

Practice, practice, practice, guys. The guns are fine. The big problem is the constraints on where we can use them, not the handling.

 

[beh0lder]

check your PM's DAT

 

[DAT]

Yeah nice video, but not conclusive to the effect of the area fire at 1200m. Shooting down slope may help but the shot from there actually looked closer to 600m. Did you get a good return when using the CLU with the Javelin? sometimes you can get a bad return on distance depending on terrain and obscuration. All I know when I used to qualify with M60 and later the M240 on the MG transition range the 1000m targets were very hard to hit and that was using a tripod with T&E.

 

[Holy.Death]

What MG'er needs is some people to back him up - to provide more targets to distract the enemy or kill the enemy, if they can shoot good enough. Some changes into the MG's gameplay would be good (like ability to lay down weapon in more places which Josef Nader mentioned somewhere), but a well used MG is very good already and doesn't need it's presence to be greater.

 

[beh0lder]

What MG'er needs is some people to back him up - to provide more targets to distract the enemy or kill the enemy, if they can shoot good enough. Some changes into the MG's gameplay would be good (like ability to lay down weapon in more places which Josef Nader mentioned somewhere), but a well used MG is very good already and doesn't need it's presence to be greater.

I would love to see the deployment system revamped to something a little more realistic and effective, hope twi takes this into consideration, I spend far too much time trying to find a good spot to setup and when I eventually find a somewhat safe spot the radius is usually not that great which results in me having to fidget around with the deployment on a window sill while people try to pop my melon.

 

[Josef Nader]

Like I said (somewhere, if not here), an MG is scary by himself, but with a few guys backing him up he's an unstoppable monster. It gets -easy- to lock down a huge swath of the map with a few riflemen protecting the MG'er from snipers and watching his back.

 

[Jippofin]

Yeah nice video, but not conclusive to the effect of the area fire at 1200m. Shooting down slope may help but the shot from there actually looked closer to 600m. Did you get a good return when using the CLU with the Javelin? sometimes you can get a bad return on distance depending on terrain and obscuration. All I know when I used to qualify with M60 and later the M240 on the MG transition range the 1000m targets were very hard to hit and that was using a tripod with T&E.

Thanks for the comment DAT.

I do not need to see the video after DAT's comments. 7.62 NATO goes subsonic before 1000m IIRC, M240 would be indirect fire at 1200m.

 

[Jippofin]

Penetration should be much better as well. Brick walls do not stop rifle caliber bullets.

Brick walls do stop bullets. It is worthwhile to remember that brick wall can be anythin from 100mm to 900mm thick, and a brick building of the period more often had quite thick walls which could stop bullets.

But as we remember, brick walls in game are penetrable by MG34. Tested that on the map barracks. I would be more concernd by the railings (stairs and in the walking bridge at the station) that are impenetrable.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

The DP-28's biggest advantage over the MG34 is it's utter lack of recoil. The thing is so freaking easy to control you have no idea. I actually -greatly- prefer the DP to the MG. The drum may be smaller, and I may not get the big ammo upgrades, but I can put almost every shot on target thanks to the lower RoF.

The MG34 is spitting out 800 rounds per minute. The DP "only" spits out something like 500. It's a lot more manageable.

Practice, practice, practice, guys. The guns are fine. The big problem is the constraints on where we can use them, not the handling.

You know I share lot of your views on the MGs so that I'm not here to troll you or anything, but I have to say DP-28 has much higher recoil than MG34 in automatic fire, which makes anything less than 1 shot burst pretty useless at 100m+.

At closer to medium range it functions ok, but at 100m+ current MGs (including MG34) function like glorified semi auto since anything more than 1 or 2 shot burst spreads more than a human height diameter area.

I think you will agree with me that being limited to 1 or 2 shot burst at 100m range for a MG that is deployed on bipads is very restrictive of its true potential.

 

[Josef Nader]

@Gaizokubanou

I don't know about restrictive, but that's kind of what I mean by managing recoil. The DP's lower RoF lets me only shoot two or three shots at a time and keep them relatively on-target, whereas the MG34 bounces all over the place and takes a second or two to reacquire the target at long range. Managed right, the DP is basically a big semi-auto with a huge magazine that fires 3-4 shots every time you squeeze the trigger to maximize lethality.

Plus, you're -supposed- to use LMGs like glorified semi-autos, especially at long range. Again, you're just as accurate as a rifleman, but you can get 3-4 shots off in a tight spread maximizing your chances of hitting. Sustained fire over long distances is done from a mount (like a tripod) that mitigates a lot of the recoil.

Double plus, the trick to MGs is learning how to walk the recoil onto the target. Start low, fire a 3 shot burst. The first shot hits the ground, second shot hits the lower torso/legs, third shot hits the chest/head. You're more effective than a rifleman because you fire more bullets per trigger squeeze (with reasonable accuracy), you reload less, and you have a more stable firing platform (integrated bipod + weight of the gun).

And the MG34 is a different beast entirely. The reason the MG34 has the barrel change and the 250 round belt is because it's a general purpose machine gun. It -can- be an LMG, or it -can- be an MMG. The key difference is the belt and the tripod. To see an MG34 at it's full potential, simply jump on one of the mounted guns on the Axis side. -That's- the sustained fire, long range beast that everyone wants the MG34 to be.

 

[Teufel Hund]

And the MG34 is a different beast entirely. The reason the MG34 has the barrel change and the 250 round belt is because it's a general purpose machine gun. It -can- be an LMG, or it -can- be an MMG. The key difference is the belt and the tripod. To see an MG34 at it's full potential, simply jump on one of the mounted guns on the Axis side. -That's- the sustained fire, long range beast that everyone wants the MG34 to be.

Too bad they didn't include the sight with the tripod mount.

 

[Josef Nader]

Too bad they didn't include the sight with the tripod mount.

Or a periscope.

The MMG's could be made a -lot- scarier if the gunner could stay behind cover and use optics to sight his targets. Sure, he'd have no peripheral, but you also can't head-shot him as soon as he takes the gun.

It'd really make MMG's something utterly terrifying, and it might make them more viable than they are now.

I mean, I don't think anyone would mind MMG's being unstoppable, horrifying murder machines. They're stationary, random in the maps, and usually pretty flankable, so it wouldn't be -that- overpowered...