If you go into cover first most of the time you can choose where you want to deploy, depends on the spot, someplaces it will snap you automatically to the center. I aggree with this the maps need a few modification concerning MG's i have a few to mention notably a bug in spartanovna where if you place you're machine gun on the left side of church (being russian) on some sandbags looking towards right flank the gun if you try to slide it to the left will go to the right untill it undeploys you.
MG needs it's presence to be greater
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If you go into cover first most of the time you can choose where you want to deploy, depends on the spot, someplaces it will snap you automatically to the center. I aggree with this the maps need a few modification concerning MG's i have a few to mention notably a bug in spartanovna where if you place you're machine gun on the left side of church (being russian) on some sandbags looking towards right flank the gun if you try to slide it to the left will go to the right untill it undeploys you.
How long have you been using the MG, i use it all the time. I hope you have at least 40 hours of experience with it before telling everyone what should be changed.
I've been playing with it since begining of the beta and the only point that seems to make some sense is you're point 7, but an mg shouldn't be cutting through really thick walls either.
Why not for 8, but a blanket i'm sure won't do much people will learn to find you.
The mg should be a skill to master, trying to create a class which simply has to deploy to be invinsible is ridiculous, it shouldn't be easy for mg'er to fight for you're "historical accuracy", i find if you use it historically accuratly it can be a deadly weapon, thats the real issue which also comes down to teamplay. When i use MG i use mic and tell people where I am and what i'm doing: MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE...
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I find the MG34 a very easy thing to use in very close CQC, spray and pray has been proven to work time after time. With the ever increasing amounts of ammo you garner it becomes even easier.
The hip firing is fine as it, though it's still a tad 'Rambo'y.
Going into ADS would be very difficult to do, the above video (though of an MG3 with a faster rate of fire than the MG34) would still be stupidly difficult, even with the silly RO2 weapon mechanics.
The deployment is more-or-less fine as well bar the annoying point brought up by Josef, it's primarily what the MGs are doing that's the problem. The MGs suppress for the most part, and at the moment supression is useless. The basic sounds and cracks along with the healing and aiming system makes an MG shooting at you the same as a bloke with an MP40 a hundred meters away. Fix that and I think the MG will be MUCH more useful.
Recoil could also be brought down a bit, but you do have to burt fire a tripod MG, tripods don't nail it to the ground. You just rest the thing on it so it will move and recoild quite a bit.
I'd say you're asking quite a lot to be changed with the actual weapon when it's the games principle mechanics that require changing rather than the weapon. MGs pose as much threat as an MP40 which breaks the whole balance with the weapons and destroys the 'realism' of the German tactics. Plus the fact that a riflemen / semi-auto (with there being far too many of the latter) can just shoot you very quickly in the face no matter where you are.
EDIT- they should also kick up a bit more dust and generally sound more menacing, as mentioned before that adds to the whole suppression effect. More sound of the rounds hitting close by and cracks at the fly overhead. You get the idea...
The hip firing is fine as it, though it's still a tad 'Rambo'y.
Going into ADS would be very difficult to do, the above video (though of an MG3 with a faster rate of fire than the MG34) would still be stupidly difficult, even with the silly RO2 weapon mechanics.
The deployment is more-or-less fine as well bar the annoying point brought up by Josef, it's primarily what the MGs are doing that's the problem. The MGs suppress for the most part, and at the moment supression is useless. The basic sounds and cracks along with the healing and aiming system makes an MG shooting at you the same as a bloke with an MP40 a hundred meters away. Fix that and I think the MG will be MUCH more useful.
Recoil could also be brought down a bit, but you do have to burt fire a tripod MG, tripods don't nail it to the ground. You just rest the thing on it so it will move and recoild quite a bit.
I'd say you're asking quite a lot to be changed with the actual weapon when it's the games principle mechanics that require changing rather than the weapon. MGs pose as much threat as an MP40 which breaks the whole balance with the weapons and destroys the 'realism' of the German tactics. Plus the fact that a riflemen / semi-auto (with there being far too many of the latter) can just shoot you very quickly in the face no matter where you are.
EDIT- they should also kick up a bit more dust and generally sound more menacing, as mentioned before that adds to the whole suppression effect. More sound of the rounds hitting close by and cracks at the fly overhead. You get the idea...
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I will just go through you're points, so it dosn't seem like I short circuited the thread.
1. I really don't see how much faster it can be its very fast, if not to fast you want to go from 1,5 seconds to what? 1 millisecond!! Don't forget if you rank up in machine gun class you deploy much faster!!
2. the reload is low true, also don't forget it does get faster with ranking up. I very rarely get shot as a machine gunner while reloading. Its always when moving and while firing. The animation speed seems pretty realistic to me. As you are more experienced i'm sure soldier got faster which is actually represented with the ranking system.
4. I don't know what you mean by this. If red orchestra 2 has something for it, its the only game that this much fluidity when using an LMG in the way it should be used.
5. I don't know i have never ran around with an MG34 in my hand and ammunition i assume it must be pretty heavy. I can only make a judgement compared to other players. Its alright with me maybe to be faster but i think gameplay wise its fast enough. The only way to really look at this is to set a guy up with the equipement he has and make him run.
6. i really don't see the point of this, it can be an interesting idea, but really with all the other issues the game has it should be low on the priority list, i'd rather have new tanks and stuff. But i can say i never really needed this.
I replyed to 7 and 8 in previous post.
Anyway all this is input from someone who plays alot with MG. i don't want to sound obnoxious but i'm also very very good at it.
The big problem with MGs is the heavy recoil that throws the barrel upwards.
This is more evident in MG.34 than DP-28, but present in both.
Just the first bullet goes where it was aimed, others go high. This makes the LMG ineffective beyond 100m, even when firing very short burst. This is unrealistic, the LMG was designed to be effective and accurate at 300m and even more.
Surely there should be some shaking of the aim, but it's unrealistic and ridiculous that after a one second burst the barrel is pointing upwards. LMGs were designed in such a way that the upward portion of recoil (that is so evident in rifles and SMGs) was very small.
Many people are using the MG in semiauto mode, that is not what it was designed for.
Maraz
This is more evident in MG.34 than DP-28, but present in both.
Just the first bullet goes where it was aimed, others go high. This makes the LMG ineffective beyond 100m, even when firing very short burst. This is unrealistic, the LMG was designed to be effective and accurate at 300m and even more.
Surely there should be some shaking of the aim, but it's unrealistic and ridiculous that after a one second burst the barrel is pointing upwards. LMGs were designed in such a way that the upward portion of recoil (that is so evident in rifles and SMGs) was very small.
Many people are using the MG in semiauto mode, that is not what it was designed for.
Maraz
Sorry for the quick reply post (even if I have a much longer post about two up) but I think people should really refer to youtube (as is the custom now) for MG34 videos. Look for ones with the bipod of course.
There's a surprising amount.
Hopefully someone could make a comparison video in-game using the same angle as a good youtube video and see how each gun reacts.
This youtube video seems like a good candidate... MG34 - YouTube
There's a surprising amount.
Hopefully someone could make a comparison video in-game using the same angle as a good youtube video and see how each gun reacts.
This youtube video seems like a good candidate... MG34 - YouTube
Maraz, you are just writing how you think things should be, not universal facts. For instance if a MG34 has a semiautomatic firing mechanism, I am sure that was the way it was designed to be.
Accuracy is again subjective, I've managed to hit a head of an enemy from 170m. How accurate are you with an real MG? I know I aren't any better than that in RL for sure.
PS. If youtube is to be used as a reference you might want to see about realistic spread on a MG3:
1200 rounds per minute!! MG-3 ShuetzenSchnur-Silver - YouTube
Rounds hitting mostly 15cm circle at 25m (judging from video) would mean 60cm spread at 100m, and 120cm spread at 200m distance. I find this quite normal.
Another video showing a spread with Finnish LMG:
Finnish machine gun kvkk - YouTube
The targets are a bit wider than a average soldier and they are at 150m distance.
Both are very similar results as we can see in the game.
Accuracy is again subjective, I've managed to hit a head of an enemy from 170m. How accurate are you with an real MG? I know I aren't any better than that in RL for sure.
PS. If youtube is to be used as a reference you might want to see about realistic spread on a MG3:
1200 rounds per minute!! MG-3 ShuetzenSchnur-Silver - YouTube
Rounds hitting mostly 15cm circle at 25m (judging from video) would mean 60cm spread at 100m, and 120cm spread at 200m distance. I find this quite normal.
Another video showing a spread with Finnish LMG:
Finnish machine gun kvkk - YouTube
The targets are a bit wider than a average soldier and they are at 150m distance.
Both are very similar results as we can see in the game.
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LMG needs to be more realistic:
- way less recoil when deployed
- much more difficult to use in "rambo" mode
I play LMGs a lot and only 50% of time I need to deploy it because MGs are more effective in close range than SMGs - that is simply wrong. With class and weapon progression LMG are becoming my fav medium range weapon as well and I'm still talking about hip shooting only.
- way less recoil when deployed
- much more difficult to use in "rambo" mode
I play LMGs a lot and only 50% of time I need to deploy it because MGs are more effective in close range than SMGs - that is simply wrong. With class and weapon progression LMG are becoming my fav medium range weapon as well and I'm still talking about hip shooting only.
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Hello Jippofin,
surely I don't have an MG.34 in my backyard, but I am not completely naive either.
Put aside today's videos (we don't know how the rounds were charged, these might have been "soft" charges) here is at 0:26 a burst of maybe 10-15 bullets:
Sabaton - Stalingrad + Lyrics - YouTube
Is the barrel thrown upwards and the bipod jumping upwards? No, it is not...
A 120 cm spread at 200m would be fine, but I am not talking about spread, I am talking of a systematic error, bullets going high as much as they . I estimate that in Ro2 2nd -3d bullets are already going 2-3m high of the target at 200m, this gets always worse. Try a 2 sec burts, it gets ridiculous... the gun is completely lifted upwards, the bipod does not reat anymore on the surface.
The problem is that for MGs, TWI has used the same recoil model of rifles. But MGs were designed a different way than rifles: they were designed so that the barrel of the gun is aligned to the butt. This gives almost no upwards component of recoil.
Here are some pictures, where I have shown with a red line the alignment between barrel and butt. For MGs barrel and butt are very well aligned (much more for MG-34 than DP-28), for rifles and SMGs they are not aligned (hence the upward recoil for rifles and SMGs). I cannot make it any simpler than that.
LMG:
SMG:
LMG:
Rifle:
BTW, how many historical videos of MG34 being fired single-shot are there, and how many beng fired in burts?
Maraz
- Lol, there hardly is any recoil: the cannon moves up about 2cm(hardly an inch) up in the air and pulls back every shot. It only get complicated at about 150m, that inch definitivly make the difference, but a three well placed round burst is easy enough for an experienced guy on mg. Anyway the point is 1 inche or maybe 1,5 inches seems to me to be at least close to something realistic. the youtube video's posted dont show what you see when firing the gun thus the're pretty useless for any kind argument.
- I don't know about this really i've seen many times in documentarys, room clearing with the mg 34, it was used very often "rambo" style in close quarters. the method was actually taught in boot camp. And if it was completly unaffective i'd be surprized they would teach it and that it would be used so extensivly.
I don't think youtube is in any way very good to determine things, people use it to try and determine what sound a gun has for example, but in every video the sound is somewhat different depending on the position of the microphone. The microphone in itself does not pick everything up even very expensive ones. In this case also really, determining accuracy with youtube video's just wont work, you don't know what the firing skill of the person is and you don't always not what exacly the person is trying to achieve in the video. Travelling bullets and firarms is a very complicated science.
Now, from a strictly gameplay perspective, I'd like the MG34 to keep it's recoil.
Right now, the DP-28 has much more manageable recoil than the MG34, but the MG34 has (gets) a MUCH larger ammo capacity than the DP. So, it's a tradeoff between accuracy and ammo capacity.
Plus, the 34 has manageable recoil as long as you fire in short bursts (like you're supposed to). If you want to spray hundreds of rounds at your target, use one of the stationary MGs. They have 0 recoil and almost never have to reload. Provided you don't get sniped (which -does- happen), you can suppress a dozen folks at once with ease.
Right now, the DP-28 has much more manageable recoil than the MG34, but the MG34 has (gets) a MUCH larger ammo capacity than the DP. So, it's a tradeoff between accuracy and ammo capacity.
Plus, the 34 has manageable recoil as long as you fire in short bursts (like you're supposed to). If you want to spray hundreds of rounds at your target, use one of the stationary MGs. They have 0 recoil and almost never have to reload. Provided you don't get sniped (which -does- happen), you can suppress a dozen folks at once with ease.
Hello Jippofin,
surely I don't have an MG.34 in my backyard, but I am not completely naive either.
Put aside today's videos (we don't know how the rounds were charged, these might have been "soft" charges) here is at 0:26 a burst of maybe 10-15 bullets:
Sabaton - Stalingrad + Lyrics - YouTube
Is the barrel thrown upwards and the bipod jumping upwards? No, it is not...
A 120 cm spread at 200m would be fine, but I am not talking about spread, I am talking of a systematic error, bullets going high as much as they . I estimate that in Ro2 2nd -3d bullets are already going 2-3m high of the target at 200m, this gets always worse. Try a 2 sec burts, it gets ridiculous... the gun is completely lifted upwards, the bipod does not reat anymore on the surface.
The problem is that for MGs, TWI has used the same recoil model of rifles. But MGs were designed a different way than rifles: they were designed so that the barrel of the gun is aligned to the butt. This gives almost no upwards component of recoil.
Here are some pictures, where I have shown with a red line the alignment between barrel and butt. For MGs barrel and butt are very well aligned (much more for MG-34 than DP-28), for rifles and SMGs they are not aligned (hence the upward recoil for rifles and SMGs). I cannot make it any simpler than that.
LMG:
SMG:
LMG:
Rifle:
BTW, how many historical videos of MG34 being fired single-shot are there, and how many beng fired in burts?
Maraz
Yea this is already a more convincing post... But really video's shouldn't be used to proove anythingyou don't know how many frames the video at 26 seconds is catching, it might actually be missing the jumping...
I can keep all my shots within a single window from 200m short or long burst... You should be able to do that too.
3 meters is equivalent of a whole single storey. Are you seriously claiming that you hit the second floor window when aiming at the bottom window?
And Maraz, you cannot see where the rounds are hitting from a youtube video unless it shows that. Closeup of the gun firing will tell NOTHING. 1cm movement of the gun will through the aim off 1 meter(!) at hundred meters. Go back to your nice red lines, and draw the line so that the front of the line is 1cm higher than the rear of the line. Maybe then you will understand what I mean with it. This is a question of <angular error>, not MG34 jumping up and down but turning. This may look like it is moving up and down in the game, but that is not the issue in RL. (Or as it seems in the game.)
Having fired several types of machineguns, this game replicates my real life performance quite closely.
3 meters is equivalent of a whole single storey. Are you seriously claiming that you hit the second floor window when aiming at the bottom window?
And Maraz, you cannot see where the rounds are hitting from a youtube video unless it shows that. Closeup of the gun firing will tell NOTHING. 1cm movement of the gun will through the aim off 1 meter(!) at hundred meters. Go back to your nice red lines, and draw the line so that the front of the line is 1cm higher than the rear of the line. Maybe then you will understand what I mean with it. This is a question of <angular error>, not MG34 jumping up and down but turning. This may look like it is moving up and down in the game, but that is not the issue in RL. (Or as it seems in the game.)
Having fired several types of machineguns, this game replicates my real life performance quite closely.
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my 2 cents from another post:
I tried to make a summary of the disadvantage one has to face when playing MG.Some, like bad mobility is something that does not have to be changed when other things get enhanced but it just adds to the overall package atm.
Disadvantage of MG'S:
-Slower sprint speed
-Faster exhausted
-Easy to spot/tracer rounds
-Barrel overheating/no clear view
-Often buggy deployment/can not deploy here=Huge problem
-Strong recoil/uncontroable jumping recoil=no accurate sustained fire even on medium distances.It makes no sense realism wise+gameplay wise
-less mobile
-very vulnerable when changing positions/not deployed
-can't use the support mechanism that is in the game
-ADS can t be used without beeing deployed
-Will always loose a fight when beeing in cover and have to snap/crawl out e.g. because gun get s centered y-axis wise in windows/on cover
-deployed positons are often buggy e.g. can t get the right angles
-No advantage in cover penetration
-Weak supression effect
Almost every weakness could get changed into a strength e.g. steady/evenly recoil so MG's can lay down sustained fire more effectivly.Use of the support mechanism in the game.ADS when not beeing deployed etc.
The list is long and that s why MG's aren t shining like they could.
I tried to make a summary of the disadvantage one has to face when playing MG.Some, like bad mobility is something that does not have to be changed when other things get enhanced but it just adds to the overall package atm.
Disadvantage of MG'S:
-Slower sprint speed
-Faster exhausted
-Easy to spot/tracer rounds
-Barrel overheating/no clear view
-Often buggy deployment/can not deploy here=Huge problem
-Strong recoil/uncontroable jumping recoil=no accurate sustained fire even on medium distances.It makes no sense realism wise+gameplay wise
-less mobile
-very vulnerable when changing positions/not deployed
-can't use the support mechanism that is in the game
-ADS can t be used without beeing deployed
-Will always loose a fight when beeing in cover and have to snap/crawl out e.g. because gun get s centered y-axis wise in windows/on cover
-deployed positons are often buggy e.g. can t get the right angles
-No advantage in cover penetration
-Weak supression effect
Almost every weakness could get changed into a strength e.g. steady/evenly recoil so MG's can lay down sustained fire more effectivly.Use of the support mechanism in the game.ADS when not beeing deployed etc.
The list is long and that s why MG's aren t shining like they could.
MGs are great. I do think a few things would make them more close to their real life counterparts.
1. Suppression effects should be greater and cause players to sway and disable their ability to "shift-zoom".
2. MGers should fire with there heads slightly lower. This is even more vital for the heavy MGs.
3. Heavy MGs should be reloaded from a safer position.
1. Suppression effects should be greater and cause players to sway and disable their ability to "shift-zoom".
2. MGers should fire with there heads slightly lower. This is even more vital for the heavy MGs.
3. Heavy MGs should be reloaded from a safer position.
MG-34 Deployment
MG-34 Deployment
For gunners the big issue is the ability to easily and quickly deploy. For those of us who have fired a LIVE MG-34 we know we can move from cover to cover, deploy the gun and begin to lay down suppressive fire. In both RO1 and RO2 we do not have the ability to fire as we do in real life - YES it's just a game in which we have simple limitations and such actions are not so easily created or designed. BUT if it were so possible the LMGs should be easier to deploy and one should be able to fire it from anywhere/any position as you can in reality. The MG-42 is different and should not be compared as it is heavier than the 34. This would be like comparing the Bren or Type 99 (96 or 97) or BAR to the heavier Lewis Gun which is a beast of an LMG type weapon. The 34 should be simple to put out a window, doorway, over a wall, where-ever the gunner so shall deem or want to fire from. If this is something Tripwire can do then they should to make this one weapon (Russian DP included to be fair) more realistic. Of all the LMG issues DEPLOYMENT is the real issue and difficulty ingame.
***The DP and it's large drum is not as easy to move n' fire with. If you've ever fired or carried one you'll see the huge difference from it to the MG-34 w/ assault drum. The 34 w/ drum is easier to carry, deploy and fire hands-down but to be fair you cannot do one and not the other - well, you could and the Soviet red vermin dogs could just suffer and that would be ok, but in Mr. Roger's world of be nice I suppose we'd have to be fair and enable both LMGs to be quickly deployed, recovered, carried and then redeployed...
Tripwire please consider making the LMGs easier to deploy w/ the ability to fire from anywhere as one can do in reality. Thank you.
MG-34 Deployment
For gunners the big issue is the ability to easily and quickly deploy. For those of us who have fired a LIVE MG-34 we know we can move from cover to cover, deploy the gun and begin to lay down suppressive fire. In both RO1 and RO2 we do not have the ability to fire as we do in real life - YES it's just a game in which we have simple limitations and such actions are not so easily created or designed. BUT if it were so possible the LMGs should be easier to deploy and one should be able to fire it from anywhere/any position as you can in reality. The MG-42 is different and should not be compared as it is heavier than the 34. This would be like comparing the Bren or Type 99 (96 or 97) or BAR to the heavier Lewis Gun which is a beast of an LMG type weapon. The 34 should be simple to put out a window, doorway, over a wall, where-ever the gunner so shall deem or want to fire from. If this is something Tripwire can do then they should to make this one weapon (Russian DP included to be fair) more realistic. Of all the LMG issues DEPLOYMENT is the real issue and difficulty ingame.
***The DP and it's large drum is not as easy to move n' fire with. If you've ever fired or carried one you'll see the huge difference from it to the MG-34 w/ assault drum. The 34 w/ drum is easier to carry, deploy and fire hands-down but to be fair you cannot do one and not the other - well, you could and the Soviet red vermin dogs could just suffer and that would be ok, but in Mr. Roger's world of be nice I suppose we'd have to be fair and enable both LMGs to be quickly deployed, recovered, carried and then redeployed...
Tripwire please consider making the LMGs easier to deploy w/ the ability to fire from anywhere as one can do in reality. Thank you.
I think the key to the MG is the user needs to understand it is a support role not a individual role. Too many times the MG user utilizes it as a single point weapon when in reality it should be used to control, interdict, or disrupt enemy avenues of approach. keep in mind also riflemen should always try to work in unison with the MG and there should always be a AG as protection for the MG. Kinda hard to do in public servers but when you get an organized team or clan working around the MG, they will dominate in defense or offense.