Melee weapon differentiations

[Aze]

The melee weapons: Knife, Machete, Fire Axe, Katana and Chainsaw. These weapons need to become more different and have different uses. It gets a tad boring to see only the Katana as the most useful of them all. They need some more differences, hence this thread for discussion and suggestions to make them more different!

So, here are my ideas:

Knife - No need to change it. In beta it will be weak as crap anyway (due to the backstab bug fix). It should be the last resort weapon, so keep it weak as it is.

Machete - Well i have 2 suggestions for this weapon.
1 - Make it dualwieldable + throwable (Yomommassis has made some animations for this and it looks superawesome! Link here http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=46393http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=46393) However, while this is a truly awesome suggestion, it makes the Machete too... similar to Fire Axe and Katana.
2 - Add some form of shield, which is only wieldable together with the Machete (or Knife). This would make the Machete a defensive weapon (with the Shield ofc). The shield needs to be blocked with manually (ironsight button) and while you are blocking with the shield and "aiming" towards a screaming siren, you are "line of sighting" (in this case, line of hearing ) her scream, so she can't hurt you like this, or it could at least heavily mitigate the damage. Also, a blocked Husk bolt should not ignite you, further adding usability. And yes, the Shield should have durability, so it needs to be used wisely.

Fire Axe - I have 2 things to suggest for it:
1 - While the throwable Machete would be cool and all, it would be better to add that to the Fire Axe (also animated in the link!) That would make the Fire Axe the slow melee weapon, but with the longest range hehe ^^ The Machete is less "needed" to be throwable, and doesn't need it at all if the shield would be the preferred addition to improve the Machete, but for the Fire Axe throwability would make a tremendous addition to spice the Axe up in usability
2 - The primary swing could cleave/sweep or whatever you wanna call it, meaning it could hit multiple specimen (can't see more than 3 targets be hit by it anyway, so i don't see it as a massively powerful bonus), which would help to counter it's very slow attack speed and still very useful weapon in general. This could be a Berserker only thing though, if necessary. The reason why i also think this would be logical and "easy" to implement, is because the primary swings always go in a horizontal axis, meaning it always does some form of swipe attack. This would make the 2 attacks different in use too:
* Primary - Quicker hit / Attacking multiple enemies closeby
* Secondary - Stronger hit-n-run smash / DPSing heavy targets
(* Throw - Long range power attack for safer Siren, Husk or Patty (lol) assaults)

Note - If you have throwable Machetes and Fire Axes (and that's maybe all you are equipped with) and you throw them away and can't regrab them at the moment, it would make the Knife more useful for the Berserker actually.

Katana - Just like on the Fire Axe, add a sweeping/cleaving multihit mechanic on the weapon, but only on the Secondary attack. That would make the 2 attacks be used like this:
* Primary - Quicker hit / DPSing heavy targets
* Secondary - Stronger hit-n-run smash / Attacking multiple enemies closeby
As you can see, the Katana and Fire Axe behave a bit differently like this!

Chainsaw - This weapon needs some love for sure. First of all, the headshot multiplier... according to one of the devs it can't be 1.0 headshot damage because that will instakill Fleshies and stuff like that... Was it an exaggeration (cuz it surely will not) or was it a bug? If it's a bug, well then fix the bug and let it have it's correct hs damage, be it 1.0 or higher. Anyway, this weapon's PRIMARY attack damage is actually sorta weak. Imo, it should be powerful enough to keep leaping Crawlers (on all difficulties, even on 6-man suicidal) away by instantly killing them if they jump in the spinning blade. Then the Chainsaw would be a TREMENDOUSLY useful weapon. Right now, a Crawler can still jump in and hurt you even if you are grinding it's face/body. The Chainsaw could also get a limited use (fuel), but also get boosted way higher in damage, to make it a real tier 3 weapon for the Berserker. Alhought that is not in any way necessary at the moment.


So in summary:
*Knife - No change
*Machete - Add a shield (only wieldable with Machete/Knife), to make Machete+Shield a defensive choice, very good choice against Sirens and Husks.
*Fire Axe - Add a swipe on primary attack for better crowdclearing, and a throw attack (ironsight button) to make it the slowest, but also the melee weapon with the longest range.
*Katana - Add a swipe on secondary to make the secondary attack have a bit more useability (and to not make the Axe a better choice than the Katana)
*Chainsaw - Make the primary attack strong enough to keep a single leaping Crawler from the front unable to damage you when it leaps into the blade, thus basicly making the Chainsaw the best anti-Crawler weapon.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Any hate against this?

 

[Dead :(]

I agree, the berserker class needs something to make all those different weapons unique, rather than making most of them just a weak version of the katana.

The multiple hit thing I think should be a berserker only trait, kinda like how support only gets better penetration with shotguns. My only concern is that adding this mechanic might make the class a bit too easy to play, and that the berserker could become like a wall that nothing can get by. It would probably have to hit targets in a limited range and/or have to come at the price of some kind of nerf.

Edit: To prevent the multiple hit thing from becoming over-powered, maybe some sort of fatigue could be added so that you would loose your ability to hit multiple enemies after a few hits. Or make your attacks only hit multiple targets if you hold down the fire button and "charge" your attack first.

 

[FloorKilling]

I agree, the berserker class needs something to make all those different weapons unique, rather than making most of them just a weak version of the katana.

The multiple hit thing I think should be a berserker only trait, kinda like how support only gets better penetration with shotguns. My only concern is that adding this mechanic might make the class a bit too easy to play, and that the berserker could become like a wall that nothing can get by. It would probably have to hit targets in a limited range and/or have to come at the price of some kind of nerf.

Edit: To prevent the multiple hit thing from becoming over-powered, maybe some sort of fatigue could be added so that you would loose your ability to hit multiple enemies after a few hits. Or make your attacks only hit multiple targets if you hold down the fire button and "charge" your attack first.

Yeah like i said on the "Zerker is OverPowered" its a pretty boring class
all weaopns do the same thing and look allmost the same when u attack
atleast thats how i feel

 

[Benjamin]

all weaopns do the same thing and look allmost the same when u attack

It's the same deal with the guns though, most of them are pretty much the same apart from some being semi-automatic, having different damage, etc. I too would like to see weapons like a spear that can penetrate multiple enemies with a 'lunge' attack, a harpoon gun that can tether a fleshpound, and so on, but it's a lot of work.

 

[FloorKilling]

It's the same deal with the guns though, most of them are pretty much the same apart from some being semi-automatic, having different damage, etc. I too would like to see weapons like a spear that can penetrate multiple enemies with a 'lunge' attack, a harpoon gun that can tether a fleshpound, and so on, but it's a lot of work.

Wow spear gun thats thinking outside of the box!!! I like it!!! I guess when you play with well suppliyed army guys you for get about those kinds of weapons. Yeah the game does need to have more of a survival feel with the types of weapons

 

[Dead :(]

I think the easiest way to fix this would be to do something like this:

Change the katana so that it attacks quickly, allows quick movement speed, but deals less dps than the fire axe. It will be great at killing smaller specimens, but it will be lacking a bit against the bigger guys.

The Fire Axe should deal better dps than the katana, but it will still be much slower than the katana, so it isn't as good at taking out the smaller guys.

The chainsaw should deal dps similar to the fire axe with its secondary fire and be able to take down the little guys similar to the katana with the primary fire, but your movement speed is reduced.

As for the machete
maybe damage and attack speed similar to the katana, but its slower alt fire does higher dps than the quicker primary, sort of the opposite of the katana. Or maybe give it a different headshot multiplier? idk

 

[Evilsod]

*sigh*

Suggesting new weapons that won't get added is 1 thing, but suggesting rather outlandish changes to the existing melee weapons that simply will never be considered because of the amount of coding required is even more pointless.

Firstly, throwing melee weapons will NEVER exist in this game, even without going into any depth about how useless it would be in practice and how nobody would ever waste a weapon by throwing it at the enemy or it would become overpowered.

Secondly, shields will NEVER exist in this game because they could simply not be balanced. They would either suck or they would be overpowered, a middle ground just wouldn't be possible.

Thirdly, multiple hitting melee weapons has been suggested many times and chances are its not a simple coding job and would more than likely overpowered something anyway. Would be maybe interesting... but probably too strong.

Lastly, melee weapons are already being subjected to a major overhaul now the backstab bug was fixed. Knife is now a pitifully weak melee weapon. Machete is now the Knifes replacement and weighs 1 so it could be considered. Axe is better for big game with its higher single hit letting it 1 hit Husks and Sirens. Katana is speedier for the lower tier specimens. Chainsaw is for doorways more than anything.

 

[Aze]

*sigh*

Suggesting new weapons that won't get added is 1 thing, but suggesting rather outlandish changes to the existing melee weapons that simply will never be considered because of the amount of coding required is even more pointless.

Word of advice: Be a little bit more positive dude You call the changes outlandish, but what do you think is so outlandish about these suggestions? While i don't think my suggestions will be added (at the very least not until a year or so haha ) i'm just suggesting it to add some (even) more fun to the game and to make the melee weapons differ more. Even with the beta changes, they will still all be kinda similar (Like the Commando weapons ). Better ofc, but still...

Firstly, throwing melee weapons will NEVER exist in this game, even without going into any depth about how useless it would be in practice and how nobody would ever waste a weapon by throwing it at the enemy or it would become overpowered.

Useless in practive? Well, it could be highly practical to kill a Siren or Husk from medium range before they can get an attack in on you, which maybe is even able to kill you. Or even possibly kill a Crawler, where it is either about killing it or you will DIE! Meh. I can think of many situations where throwing your axe would be of great assistance to either yourself or a teammate. But the risk of it possibly being overpowered is a concern though, I'll give you that.

Secondly, shields will NEVER exist in this game because they could simply not be balanced. They would either suck or they would be overpowered, a middle ground just wouldn't be possible.

Lol, what a negative stance on that dude You don't give TWI enough credit of being great designers and listening to useful player feedback! WIth both those things in mind, why do you think a shield being on a balanced level seem impossible?

Thirdly, multiple hitting melee weapons has been suggested many times and chances are its not a simple coding job and would more than likely overpowered something anyway. Would be maybe interesting... but probably too strong.

Think of it in practicallity: It would MAX hit 2 or 3 specimen, and it could be balanced by making each further hit being reduced by whatever % (like each further hit deals 25% less damage) so it doesn't outright kill too many specimen at once. But imo, dissing the idea outright seems a bit silly I mean, you even say yourself that it seems interesting!

Lastly, melee weapons are already being subjected to a major overhaul now the backstab bug was fixed. Knife is now a pitifully weak melee weapon. Machete is now the Knifes replacement and weighs 1 so it could be considered. Axe is better for big game with its higher single hit letting it 1 hit Husks and Sirens. Katana is speedier for the lower tier specimens. Chainsaw is for doorways more than anything.

While the Beta balancing is a great step in the right direction doesn't mean that you can't FURTHER improve the weapons, no?

 

[Evilsod]

Word of advice: Be a little bit more positive dude You call the changes outlandish, but what do you think is so outlandish about these suggestions? While i don't think my suggestions will be added (at the very least not until a year or so haha ) i'm just suggesting it to add some (even) more fun to the game and to make the melee weapons differ more. Even with the beta changes, they will still all be kinda similar (Like the Commando weapons ). Better ofc, but still...

Useless in practive? Well, it could be highly practical to kill a Siren or Husk from medium range before they can get an attack in on you, which maybe is even able to kill you. Or even possibly kill a Crawler, where it is either about killing it or you will DIE! Meh. I can think of many situations where throwing your axe would be of great assistance to either yourself or a teammate. But the risk of it possibly being overpowered is a concern though, I'll give you that.

Lol, what a negative stance on that dude You don't give TWI enough credit of being great designers and listening to useful player feedback! WIth both those things in mind, why do you think a shield being on a balanced level seem impossible?

Think of it in practicallity: It would MAX hit 2 or 3 specimen, and it could be balanced by making each further hit being reduced by whatever % (like each further hit deals 25% less damage) so it doesn't outright kill too many specimen at once. But imo, dissing the idea outright seems a bit silly I mean, you even say yourself that it seems interesting!

While the Beta balancing is a great step in the right direction doesn't mean that you can't FURTHER improve the weapons, no?

Perhaps, but they've been suggested many times and they just aren't gonna happen at this stage. And if they do then its something they've had planned for a while anyway but haven't had time to spare.

Why in gods name would a Zerker throw his weapon away? Unless they actually introduced a throwing dagger that had x number of throws and they could be retrieved from dead specs no zerker would ever throw his weapon at an enemy, and in the event they did add the above its not really a Zerkers speciality. There is plenty of space for a LAR, Xbow, Handcannon/Dual, M79, hell practically all the weapons the game has to offer, if you want a ranged weapon.

How exactly would a shield work? Pure damage absorption? Blocking specimens? Chances are something would get overpowered, broken or abused or the shield would just be useless.

Interesting yes, it would've been a nice change to the Chainsaw if it was turned into a true tier 3 melee weapon. But for general use? Even if you diminish the damage a secondary katana swing could decap 3 of anything and the hit 'ray' would just make Zerkers skill ceiling plummit. You'd barely need to aim to hit everything.

The beta is all about changes numbers, nothing more. Currently the melee weapons all have a pretty good focus which might change before the final release, it may not, but i can't see them considering another direction this close to the final patch.

 

[Aze]

Just a quick note Evilsod (hurrying at work ) : You speak as if i want these things NOW. I don't. I just think it's a neat idea to think about and maybe, just MAYBE be added in the distant future... Is it really that bad?

Ah nice, got some more time at work so i will try and quickly answer you:

Regarding throwing your weapon, it is situational and/or for sh1t n giggles
A situation for example, you need to kill a Siren quickly in front of you to run away from a large horde behind you. You have low health, so running up and slashing her is very risky, maybe even deadly. So what do you do? Well, since you might die anyway, why not throw that awesome axe in her chest or face? It requires aiming and thus skill. And you should be able to pick it up again, just like a crossbow bolt. I think some cooldown on throwing the axe might be needed though so you don't throw, run n pick it up, throw etc. (Regarding throwing knives, that is an ok idea too i think. Wasn't there a mutator where the Zerker has throwing knives instead of grenades?)

How i see the shield work, is that when you bring out your Machete (or Knife if you don't have a Machete) you also bring out the shield automatically. However, the shield needs to be used manually to do anything. That would be done with the Ironsight button. You can thus only block attacks from the front. It soaks up all damage, and has a certain durability, so it will break ofc. I think something like the worth of a body armor more or less, is how much it would be able to absorb. It wouldn't "bodyblock" a specimen or anything. It acts as any other weapon in that regard. The only neat function i suggested was that it could "line of sight" her scream without the shield taking damage ofc, so the Zerker can actually help against sirens too Also blocking husk bolts would be a nice added :IS2:-feature for the Zerker to help to protect the people behind you.

Hmmm the secondary Katana swing decapping three specs in a row, even with diminishes? Need some calculation on that The hit 'ray' being a skill dropper... ok i give you that, that's a bit of a problem. Although, it still requires you to aim in a VERTICAL direction, which is the most important part regarding head"shots" anyway. And tbh sometimes when fighting (especially Gorefasts grrr! ) some specs you do a quick attack and turn 180 real quickly just to suddenly get hit by the spec either way, cuz you didn't aim properly horizontal wise, despite the animation clearly going right through the body -.- So, i actually think it would help to make SENSE of the animations a little. But that's just a minor, minor, MIIINOR issue though.

Regarding your last part, yes i certainly know the beta is just about numbers Like i said initially in this post, i think you are misunderstanding my intention of the idea. I don't in any way think it should be implemented NOW, or maybe not at all if it shows to be bad/overpowered/unprogrammable etc, but i'm just throwing the idea out there with a bit more flesh on it, as i think it would be a really nice boost to the melee fun ^^

 

[Aze]

I agree, the berserker class needs something to make all those different weapons unique, rather than making most of them just a weak version of the katana.

Exactly

The multiple hit thing I think should be a berserker only trait, kinda like how support only gets better penetration with shotguns. My only concern is that adding this mechanic might make the class a bit too easy to play, and that the berserker could become like a wall that nothing can get by. It would probably have to hit targets in a limited range and/or have to come at the price of some kind of nerf.

Making it a Berserker only bonus (multihit i mean) sounds great!
And the swipe shouldn't be TOO big, it should absolute max hit 3 targets.

Edit: To prevent the multiple hit thing from becoming over-powered, maybe some sort of fatigue could be added so that you would loose your ability to hit multiple enemies after a few hits. Or make your attacks only hit multiple targets if you hold down the fire button and "charge" your attack first.

Fatigue, might work, but Zerker then needs to have better Fatigue regen at higher levels. (Who knows, Fatigue might introduce something new to the game as well if imagination is used wisely )
Hold down and charge sounds like a GREAT idea... buuuut sadly it interferes with autofire (and i'd rather keep autofire).

I would rather balance it with a fatigue meter and/or with less damage dealt for every additional target hit with a swipe (the next enemy hit by within a swipe is only dealt 50% of the damage or so, meaning (just hypothetical numbers) first is dealt 100 damage, next 50, next 25 etc).

 

[YoYoBatty]

Been suggested before, move along people.

 

[Dead :(]

Exactly

Making it a Berserker only bonus (multihit i mean) sounds great!
And the swipe shouldn't be TOO big, it should absolute max hit 3 targets.

Fatigue, might work, but Zerker then needs to have better Fatigue regen at higher levels. (Who knows, Fatigue might introduce something new to the game as well if imagination is used wisely )
Hold down and charge sounds like a GREAT idea... buuuut sadly it interferes with autofire (and i'd rather keep autofire).

I would rather balance it with a fatigue meter and/or with less damage dealt for every additional target hit with a swipe (the next enemy hit by within a swipe is only dealt 50% of the damage or so, meaning (just hypothetical numbers) first is dealt 100 damage, next 50, next 25 etc).

Disrupting the auto-attack would be annoying in some cases I guess. The damage reduction with each enemy hit could work. It would be kinda tough to balance out, but it could work.

The throwing weapon idea is fun but impractical. Maybe if they provided a stun when thrown they could be valuable but not too overpowered.

I have another idea how to differentiate melee weapons- how about taking away some or all of the berserker's perk's speed and damage mitigation bonuses and instead make them weapon and perk specific? The katana could give you the maximum speed bonus without any armor bonus, and the chainsaw could give you the maximum damage mitigation bonus and no speed bonus. Perhaps the axe could get a little of both or something. (I posted an idea like this in the berserker thread too). The MAC-10 gives you incendiary rounds when perked firebug, I think Tripwire could implement something like this for melee weapons and berserkers too.