Maybe a more positive view.
- Thread starter {Core}Steven
- Start date
Stats, when maxed do work
. My avatar runs faster at HD/Hero and I get more ammo and I feel like there are less hits I need to do when not fully charging my melee. Weapon control and reload makes a maxed out Rifleman into a beast. Fire and manualy bolt a lvl 1 Rifle and a lvl 50 rifle 5 times and you will notice the difference. I promise.
. My avatar runs faster at HD/Hero and I get more ammo and I feel like there are less hits I need to do when not fully charging my melee. Weapon control and reload makes a maxed out Rifleman into a beast. Fire and manualy bolt a lvl 1 Rifle and a lvl 50 rifle 5 times and you will notice the difference. I promise.
If you played RO1 for a while, you would never die without knowing or seeing your opponent and usually you could get at least a shot or 2 off against him. This while it isn't realistic made the outdoor gameplay more vivid.
Next to this in Roost you always saw everything at the same size, in HOS you have a zoom button. This means that unless zoomed in you cannot see long range or hidden enemies. Making people more prone to play really defensive at long range and just take pot shots rather than try and advance. While it is actually realistic behaviour it is bad for game play, on fallen heroes more than half the team stays in the sniper buildings taking pot shots. I like battles where people move more and try to cap objectives.
A lot of people got very good at making themselves hard to hit as well, which brought real firefights to the table. In hos everybody just dies on the first hit.
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You've played this game, right? I challenge you to come up with any typical scenario in the game where any of those stats change the outcome. The guy you ambushed as he came around the corner isn't going to survive because he has a fraction of a second faster sighting speed. The one you stabbed in the back isn't helped by his improved melee damage. The guy you threw a grenade at isn't going to escape because he could run 2.2 meters away instead of just 2.0 meters. The guy you caught reloading is defenseless for only 3.1 seconds instead of 3.5. The person who didn't even see your 150 meter shot coming will, perhaps, be comforted by being less suppressed by the bullet that went through his head.
These aren't the kind of stat boosts that lend themselves to facerolling domination of helpless cannon fodder. A 30% boost to a stat that has maybe 1% relevance is utterly insignificant.
(also, weapon focus is how long breath holding lasts, not the strength of the zoom)
Here is what I said last page re. this very issue.
Say you're at 300m, trying to get a shot off on some uber levelled guy. Both of you have bolt-actions, and both of you are prone. He's got less sway, he's got faster reload, and he's basically immune to suppression. That means that while your aim is jumping around from bullets coming close to you, his aim is perfectly fine. This single stat (suppression) which was not important before at shorter ranges is now vitally important.
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Well, yeah, there was the way you could fire out the very top of your helmet if the terrain was conveniently placed for it. It meant people missed you a lot, but I'm not sure I'd consider that a -good- thing
Well, yeah, there was the way you could fire out the very top of your helmet if the terrain was conveniently placed for it. It meant people missed you a lot, but I'm not sure I'd consider that a -good- thing
You have no idea what you're talking about.
In RO, i rarely get killed without seeing a muzzle flash.
It is in RO2 that you get killed by helmets sticking out. Either that, muzzle flashes are very lacking.
Well, if they're prone, the sway is zero for both of them. So, if Tripwire adds sway while weapons are braced, and if they increase that 30% suppression resistance to 100%, and if both players spot, fire and miss each other at the exact same time, and keep missing until their sixth shot, then it will be game-breaking? You don't think this is maybe a bit of a stretch?
You don't think you're stretching a bit yourself? I didn't mention sway in the above example because, duh, they're prone. I mentioned suppression as it exists right now. (Why would they remove suppression altogether, as you suggest?)
I don't really want to belabor this point because it's quite obvious, but here's how the firefight happens:
- Both soldiers go prone.
- They each fire one shot that comes close but misses. The lower-ranked player's aim jumps around, because that is what happens when you get suppressed.
- For every shot that comes close to the lower-ranked player, his ability to aim deteriorates more and more. Not only does this make it harder for him to hit his enemy, but it also makes it harder to suppress his enemy with close shots.
- The higher-ranked player not only has the benefit of more rounds downrange (thanks to faster reload rate), but the advantage of a steady aim from suppression resistance, compared to his hapless opponent.
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If you're like me and you just automatically turn the Bloom setting off in every game that ever has one, then yeah, they are. It was an unpleasant discovery to find out that a huge part of RO2's muzzle flashes are based on having bloom enabled. At least I can see people firing, now. I still miss the old "laser" MG tracers though. Sure, they were a bit overdone, but still, they were impressive, fountaining off a building facade.
Well I learned something new today. I never turn the bloom setting on.
I actually find it easier to spot an enemy in RO1 than RO2.
Not only that, it's easier for me to distinguish enemy from friendly in RO1 as well.
RO2 has weird shading that shifts color spectrum. It may be my videocard but I've killed friendlies because of that before.
I wasn't a fan of MG tracers but to me that was a minor thing.
Well, yeah, there was the way you could fire out the very top of your helmet if the terrain was conveniently placed for it. It meant people missed you a lot, but I'm not sure I'd consider that a -good- thing
That's not what he is talking about. You prone, you lose, that simple. What zets means is popping up, in other words massive use of the crouch button so you only pop up for a split second to make your shot. Against good players you wont hit that easily without super reactions or a good and lucky prediction shot to the spot, the guy might just pop up the next time.
That still happens in hos though, but isn't so effective, due to the 1st and 3rd person animations not being in sync (again).
Also the leveling can make a huge difference! I died quite often because the other guy could enter ironsights quicker than I could. Someone can make it somewhere faster due to running speed, HUUUGE difference. That's experience from clanwars. Stuff like that matters less on public servers.
Zet, I think you're exaggerating just a bit there..... allow me to explain:
The same could be said about RO2.
If..... If you played RO2 for a while, you would never die without knowing or seeing your opponent and indeed, you could usually get a couple of shots off at them before dying.
When I ever played any of the RO's.... mod, Ost, Heroes..... right from the start of learning each game, I ended up getting killed from people I never saw and once I got used to the mechanics and the maps, I started to know which direction I was typically getting shot from.
In RO2, it's much the same, and since I have been getting more familiar with each map, I'm usually seeing where the enemy is. Sometimes I hit them.... other times they shoot at me and make my aiming jerk, which causes me to miss, but also jerks their aim due to supression from the bullet that just missed their head..... I've had a few extended firefights because of this and long rang shots, to me at least, are more dynamic and more interesting than what was in RO1.
But overall, I still experience moments in all the RO's where I'm hit by someone I never saw.... it happens.
Now this doesn't make any sense. In RO1, you didn't have a focus/zoom feature. In RO2, if you are not in focus/zoom, then the screen and the scaling of everything on your screen is exactly the same as what existed in RO1. RO2 just gets rid of the disability of scaled down images on your screen and brings things close to a 1:1 scale.
If you couldn't see anything at long range or hidden enemies outside of zooming in in RO2, then by that logic you wouldn't see anything at long range or hidden enemies in RO1..... yet you could in RO1, so this just doesn't make any sense to me.
Again I am confused on this claim, as I'm always advancing and so is the majority of my team.... otherwise objectives wouldn't be captured and rounds would be won based on lockdown or a team running out of reinforcements. That does happen from time to time, but not as often as a team winning by holding or taking objectives.
I found that in RO1, due to the SMG's and such having really poor accuracy at range, there were many riflemen who would be prone to play really defensive at long range and take pot shots, rather than try and advance, because they had the better accuracy at range. In most maps I played in RO1, riflemen ended up being more of a support class while SMG's and Semi-Autos did the primary attacking.
*shrugs* Different experiences I suppose
I did find that in the beta and early days of RO2's release, the above was true, and most stayed inside the buildings where it was more safe, however in the last few weeks, I have noticed that the only people I see hiding in the buildings are Marksman, MG's, Commander and Anti-Tank classes.... at best, 5 players from your team, while the rest are out capping objectives and often, the Commander and at least one MG is out in the thick of it trying to cap objectives.
The gameplay has been improving since the early days of RO2.
Again, I'm surprised by these statements from you. Everybody died more often from the first hit in RO1 than they do in RO2.
I've been hit four times before I died (with a bandage resupply)..... unless it's a chest or head shot, I'm usually good to keep going after some bandaging.
Pistols take more than one hit to kill someone, I usually end up having to hit my target 2-3 times with the MKB42 before they drop. Even with the MG34 or DP28, I sometimes need to hit my target 2-3 times before they drop (sometimes, but not often)...... with the rifles, yes, usually one hit will take someone down.... but that's no different than what existed in RO1 or the Mod.
You sure you're playing the same game?
Again that's false. I can see Russians on Fallen Fighters from the German buildings shooting in their buildings and can target/hit them by tracking their muzzle flashes in the windows..... they're far more noticeable in RO2 than in RO1 and if you can't see muzzle flashes from that distance I described above on FallenFighters, you might want to get your eyes checked
The same could be said about RO2.
If..... If you played RO2 for a while, you would never die without knowing or seeing your opponent and indeed, you could usually get a couple of shots off at them before dying.
When I ever played any of the RO's.... mod, Ost, Heroes..... right from the start of learning each game, I ended up getting killed from people I never saw and once I got used to the mechanics and the maps, I started to know which direction I was typically getting shot from.
In RO2, it's much the same, and since I have been getting more familiar with each map, I'm usually seeing where the enemy is. Sometimes I hit them.... other times they shoot at me and make my aiming jerk, which causes me to miss, but also jerks their aim due to supression from the bullet that just missed their head..... I've had a few extended firefights because of this and long rang shots, to me at least, are more dynamic and more interesting than what was in RO1.
But overall, I still experience moments in all the RO's where I'm hit by someone I never saw.... it happens.
Now this doesn't make any sense. In RO1, you didn't have a focus/zoom feature. In RO2, if you are not in focus/zoom, then the screen and the scaling of everything on your screen is exactly the same as what existed in RO1. RO2 just gets rid of the disability of scaled down images on your screen and brings things close to a 1:1 scale.
If you couldn't see anything at long range or hidden enemies outside of zooming in in RO2, then by that logic you wouldn't see anything at long range or hidden enemies in RO1..... yet you could in RO1, so this just doesn't make any sense to me.
Again I am confused on this claim, as I'm always advancing and so is the majority of my team.... otherwise objectives wouldn't be captured and rounds would be won based on lockdown or a team running out of reinforcements. That does happen from time to time, but not as often as a team winning by holding or taking objectives.
I found that in RO1, due to the SMG's and such having really poor accuracy at range, there were many riflemen who would be prone to play really defensive at long range and take pot shots, rather than try and advance, because they had the better accuracy at range. In most maps I played in RO1, riflemen ended up being more of a support class while SMG's and Semi-Autos did the primary attacking.
*shrugs* Different experiences I suppose
I did find that in the beta and early days of RO2's release, the above was true, and most stayed inside the buildings where it was more safe, however in the last few weeks, I have noticed that the only people I see hiding in the buildings are Marksman, MG's, Commander and Anti-Tank classes.... at best, 5 players from your team, while the rest are out capping objectives and often, the Commander and at least one MG is out in the thick of it trying to cap objectives.
The gameplay has been improving since the early days of RO2.
Again, I'm surprised by these statements from you. Everybody died more often from the first hit in RO1 than they do in RO2.I've been hit four times before I died (with a bandage resupply)..... unless it's a chest or head shot, I'm usually good to keep going after some bandaging.
Pistols take more than one hit to kill someone, I usually end up having to hit my target 2-3 times with the MKB42 before they drop. Even with the MG34 or DP28, I sometimes need to hit my target 2-3 times before they drop (sometimes, but not often)...... with the rifles, yes, usually one hit will take someone down.... but that's no different than what existed in RO1 or the Mod.
You sure you're playing the same game?
Again that's false. I can see Russians on Fallen Fighters from the German buildings shooting in their buildings and can target/hit them by tracking their muzzle flashes in the windows..... they're far more noticeable in RO2 than in RO1 and if you can't see muzzle flashes from that distance I described above on FallenFighters, you might want to get your eyes checked
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Again that's false. I can see Russians on Fallen Fighters from the German buildings shooting in their buildings and can target/hit them by tracking their muzzle flashes in the windows..... they're far more noticeable in RO2 than in RO1 and if you can't see muzzle flashes from that distance I described above on FallenFighters, you might want to get your eyes checked
A screenshot would be more helpful instead of just letters and assiness.
And no, I won't check my eyes just to play RO2. I can see the muzzle flashes in RO1 just fine with my poor eyesight and poor RO1 graphics.
Please read my posts carefully, just making a long reply avoiding the points I actually said is a bit of a waste of time .
The zoom in RO2 is about 2.15x this makes it possible to fire at enemies 2.15x as far as in RO2. Which means the possible dangers from enemies is in an area 4.6 times as large as RO1. This means that to spot an enemy you have to scout an area 4.6 times as large, and in 100%*3.6/4.6 of the possible area you cannot see him without zooming in. Above this enemies are harder to see because they no longer emit light like they did in Roost. So overall enemies are harder to see than in Roost as well.
While realistic this means to kill and spot someone you need to zoom in, and because the area is so big the chance is big either of the the two finds the other first without the other noting it. If anyone is somewhat able with a rifle he will simply kill with the first shot without the other noting the other.
Although normally in real life you can see things at the same size all of the time and together with that at a wide fov of 180 degrees. Now you can only see enemies when you're using your narrow 40 degree ironsight breathing mode.
If you look at the attackers, they need both to move towards the cap, what this means is that you need to move, which gives you disadvantages as due to the speedtunnel effect and headbob it makes it harder to focus.
Above that in HOS it means that you cannot zoom in and see things at a 1:1 size any more and actually zoom out. This makes it near impossible to account for any incoming danger.
The attackers that have a disadvantage by default, due to being usually less consealed bigger (moving) targets that above that have speedtunneling and headbob making it harder to focus. Have now gotten another disadvantage that they see things about 6 times smaller as the defenders.
In a game where you do not have some sort of commander forcing you to attack, why should you when it doesn't bring you any advantage. Perhaps you attack every time, some people do, but walk around in fallen heroes and notice that 2/3rd of your team (i actually counted) is often found in the sniper buildings.
And yes people died quicker in RO1 when hit, but the thing about fire fights is not about exchancing hits, its about exchanging shots. 2 groups trying to hit each other but not necessarily succeeding. 2 players cannot really exchange shots unless they know of each others existence. Of all my longer range kills in HOS I think at max 5% had seen the bullet coming. And whether this is realistic or not, its not fun for me if there is no human interaction in the fighting.
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If there would be some more sway in guns people would miss more which would make it easier for someone to quickly duck away in cover, and later look for the assailant. It would make people move a bit closer as well to ensure hitting, making combat automatically a bit more active.
And if people could zoom while running then at least people get a vague idea of the surrounding and look for muzzle flashes for instance. Which would make attacking slightly less suicidal, encouraging more people to do so.
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Similarly in cqc, if there in general would be a bigger delay to go to ironsights (especially coming from a sprint) and together with a bigger delay in being able to fire from a sprint.
Then people sprinting in a room wouldn't be able to simply down people with easy, they would need to be more careful and stop sprinting before entering if they would want to hip, and go to ironsight before entering (and cutting the pie) if they would like the possibly shoot someone from the sights.
Overall the ironsight speed at lvl 0 is pretty fast but quite ok, but after leveling up and obtaining a 20% IS speed it becomes super fast. And to the point that a player that has been playing this game longer obtains perhaps a 100ms or bigger advantage in raising the sights that is a pretty huge advantage.
. The zoom in RO2 is about 2.15x this makes it possible to fire at enemies 2.15x as far as in RO2. Which means the possible dangers from enemies is in an area 4.6 times as large as RO1. This means that to spot an enemy you have to scout an area 4.6 times as large, and in 100%*3.6/4.6 of the possible area you cannot see him without zooming in. Above this enemies are harder to see because they no longer emit light like they did in Roost. So overall enemies are harder to see than in Roost as well.
While realistic this means to kill and spot someone you need to zoom in, and because the area is so big the chance is big either of the the two finds the other first without the other noting it. If anyone is somewhat able with a rifle he will simply kill with the first shot without the other noting the other.
Although normally in real life you can see things at the same size all of the time and together with that at a wide fov of 180 degrees. Now you can only see enemies when you're using your narrow 40 degree ironsight breathing mode.
If you look at the attackers, they need both to move towards the cap, what this means is that you need to move, which gives you disadvantages as due to the speedtunnel effect and headbob it makes it harder to focus.
Above that in HOS it means that you cannot zoom in and see things at a 1:1 size any more and actually zoom out. This makes it near impossible to account for any incoming danger.
The attackers that have a disadvantage by default, due to being usually less consealed bigger (moving) targets that above that have speedtunneling and headbob making it harder to focus. Have now gotten another disadvantage that they see things about 6 times smaller as the defenders.
In a game where you do not have some sort of commander forcing you to attack, why should you when it doesn't bring you any advantage. Perhaps you attack every time, some people do, but walk around in fallen heroes and notice that 2/3rd of your team (i actually counted) is often found in the sniper buildings.
And yes people died quicker in RO1 when hit, but the thing about fire fights is not about exchancing hits, its about exchanging shots. 2 groups trying to hit each other but not necessarily succeeding. 2 players cannot really exchange shots unless they know of each others existence. Of all my longer range kills in HOS I think at max 5% had seen the bullet coming. And whether this is realistic or not, its not fun for me if there is no human interaction in the fighting.
-----
If there would be some more sway in guns people would miss more which would make it easier for someone to quickly duck away in cover, and later look for the assailant. It would make people move a bit closer as well to ensure hitting, making combat automatically a bit more active.
And if people could zoom while running then at least people get a vague idea of the surrounding and look for muzzle flashes for instance. Which would make attacking slightly less suicidal, encouraging more people to do so.
-----
Similarly in cqc, if there in general would be a bigger delay to go to ironsights (especially coming from a sprint) and together with a bigger delay in being able to fire from a sprint.
Then people sprinting in a room wouldn't be able to simply down people with easy, they would need to be more careful and stop sprinting before entering if they would want to hip, and go to ironsight before entering (and cutting the pie) if they would like the possibly shoot someone from the sights.
Overall the ironsight speed at lvl 0 is pretty fast but quite ok, but after leveling up and obtaining a 20% IS speed it becomes super fast. And to the point that a player that has been playing this game longer obtains perhaps a 100ms or bigger advantage in raising the sights that is a pretty huge advantage.
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Yes, cuz trying to get a screenshot at the right moment of a muzzle flash is somehow easier than you sitting on your lazy butt, going into the game, loading up the map and using your own damn eyes.
Assiness is given where assiness is due.
Then you should have no issues with loading up RO2, jumping onto FallenFighters, push the foward key to a window and looking towards the russian buildings to see muzzle flashes.
Heck if it's too hard for your eyes, use your focus/zoom key.
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The advantages that perma-stat boosts provide are demonstrably significant, and they become even more significant the better the player you are to begin with. Play to 50+ Honour with a couple of weapons up to 'Select Grade', then reset yourself back to 0, and then realise how wrong you are.
The progression system was never tested robustly; TWI just hoped it would work. The stats bug in the full retail release revealed beautifully why one should never skimp on testing (not in the least part because of the existence of the bug itself, but as it also highlighted just how significant the stat boosts are).
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Mekhazzio,
You're friggin' blind right? Have you ever tried to pick up different weapons you have no levels in or play a class that has zero levels and zero weapon levels? It's a massive difference compared to something that is level 3/weapon 50.
Praxius,
I am pretty sure you've figured this out by now but Nazarov has only one view point and will not compromise on it.
Nazarov,
You're blind, you do need your eyes checked or your game system checked because muzzle flashes are everywhere. If the enemy is bad at hitting you, usually by the second or third shot, you can figure out where they are assuming you positioned yourself in a decent manner. You barely play the damn game so you wouldn't know to begin with that's all you're proving.
You're friggin' blind right? Have you ever tried to pick up different weapons you have no levels in or play a class that has zero levels and zero weapon levels? It's a massive difference compared to something that is level 3/weapon 50.
Praxius,
I am pretty sure you've figured this out by now but Nazarov has only one view point and will not compromise on it.
Nazarov,
You're blind, you do need your eyes checked or your game system checked because muzzle flashes are everywhere. If the enemy is bad at hitting you, usually by the second or third shot, you can figure out where they are assuming you positioned yourself in a decent manner. You barely play the damn game so you wouldn't know to begin with that's all you're proving.