Maps maps maps

[Randy Newman]

Your right our server([2.FJg]), has removed some of the stock maps. We took out some of the worst stock maps, that have had a negative effect on our server population. Like the ones, you mentioned.

In a world with limited choice, the leading RO2 server (yours) should atleast host all the default maps. I hate a few default maps too (Apartments) but I still think all the default maps should be there, at the very least.

However, we have been putting on custom maps. Currently, our server is running: Winterwauld, Gumrakstation, Bridges of Druzhina, DieBresche and Butovo.

Kudos to you sir! I am aware of this. I did not mean to call out the 2FGJ server. You guys are one of the few who are using your leading position to promote customs.

You have to understand though, that from a server admin's point of view. We have to take in a number of variables, whilst adding maps. Some don't work(red_assault). Others prove very unpopular(due to things like balance or bugs). Some have been huge downloads; which if put on with other custom maps, can have you playing on an empty server. I.e. the larger the map file, the more it will put people off. Therefore, you have to be very strategic on when and where you put your custom into rotation. Furthermore, things like having customs back to back in rotation is a huge risk. As, If you haven't built your population back up to full levels when the next custom comes up. Then your server population is going to take a double hit. Which you would have to do to run all the custom maps out there.

I am fully aware of these concerns.

Add to these problems, the fact that all these maps are beta. Meaning one or two get updated nearly every single week. Which adds to frustration of players, constantly dling the same map over and over. Whilst most of us on here understand and are happy with dling these maps, as the mappers bring out new and improved version. The majority of people who aren't on here, seem to hate the constant dling, which is a shame.

The whole Beta thing is...a misnomer. Univermag, as it stands it eminently playable. The only thing that's a hindrance is the constant DLing because people do not use workshop.

Even, though we've been running these custom maps for some time. I can still sit on remote desktop, and from time to time, watch the connections to our server drop 30 people instantly, when a custom comes on. Now imagine if you are running a server. Where you're trying to build up a population. Is there any way you'd put on a custom? For those guys, I very much understand.

Absolutely, I understand. The smaller servers who are trying to build populations cannot do customs...or alternatively, they can advertise custom maps, as some do, to attract population. That strategy does not work as people just do not, as you said, like downloading.

For the bigger servers, there really is no excuse. This is where we feel very frustrated. We're trying to get all the new custom maps out there, but we feel we're getting little help. I may be wrong, but with the other top five servers, I don't think I've seen them running a custom map. Which doesn't help one bit. If every server ran a custom map, then people would have little option but to dl them. Instead of disconnecting. Plus if every server ran them, then the time it takes everyone to have all the custom maps dl'd, would reduce dramatically.

Ah the tragedy of the commons. I completely understand the free rider effect and why you guys might resent it. I would too if I thought other servers were freeloading off of me.

Instead of months later seeing, half the server drop to dl the maps. The majority of the population would be insta connecting. For us, it feels like we're putting all the work in, taking the hits to our population. Giving all the people the maps, and then once the majority has those maps. Then the other servers will start putting them into their rotations. This may be wrong and that is not the reason, and if it is then I apologise. However, right now it certainly feels this way.

I understand your predicament. My original post sounded flippant. For that, I too apologise. As I said, the only way to fix this is to get the maps into a general update. The ball is solely in TWI's court and they haven't even been giving us an update regarding where they are with the customs, let alone Rising Storm. They need to be more communicative. Only they can fix this.

I only started this thread to put pressure on them and let them know that the community is clamouring for this. I appreciate your sounding off. We need more server admins to post here to advance this cause.

I fear that amongst the discussions of "realism mode is not realistic" and all that nonsense, this crucial issue is being overlooked.

 

[Cat_in_da_Hat]

I have found the Dynamic Map Rotator to be pretty darn useful in balancing stock and custom maps.

I have it set so when there are between 0 and 25 players on the server, only maps like apartments, barracks, station, grain etc (basically the smaller maps), will load.

I also have included the capture the flag maps but they will only load when there are between 10 and 25 players on the server.

The Dynamic Map Rotator ini file controls these min and max player settings and you can change them around to see what works best for your group of players.

Most of the custom maps tend to play better with larger numbers so I have them only able to run when there are 25 or 30 players or more.

I then stagger the custom maps throughout the map cycle. So it would be large stock, custom, large stock, custom. That way if a player was to walk in to game with a fresh RO2 install they would not have to download a new map every map change.

I am not using map vote.

In Australia our internet speed is terribly slow and people tend to miss half a map if they need to download a map.

This strategy was working really well up until the last patch when mappers had to re-cook their maps twice in a matter of a few weeks.

It seemed to be the straw that broke the camels back as having to download every custom map again twice just killed off the player base in Australia.

I have had to remove all custom maps from the server and slowly reintroduce them one at a time to get the numbers back.

Still a long way to go to get back to a filled 64 player server in Australia.

 

[TrOOper]

Heh, I'm tempted to switch when a boring stock map comes on.....

Give me a custom map only server and I'll happily DL'd each round, make it a Classic server and I'll never leave.

you should try the RGN custom map server...Only custom maps and they run realism with classic weapon handling......

 

[Piscator]

40-1 Classic server has lots of custom maps and mostly filled up with 64 players. Since this is the only server I play on I have no complaints about the lack of custom maps.

Kaukasus was on yesterday at least for me for the first time. Nice remake but needs some work and just like Stalingrad Kessel it was never intended for 64 players but for 32 so that I wish that those remakes would open the maps a bit more to adjust to the higher player count. Then again we could play it on a 32 player server and I don't want to complain about any new map as I am happy to play all of them to see which one turns out to be good.

 

[LordKhaine]

40-1 Classic server has lots of custom maps and mostly filled up with 64 players.

I suspect people playing classic are more inclined to wait the download out. If you want to play classic, there is usually only one full server to pick so you have to download the map if you wish to play. On the other hand in realism you'll have a choice of multiple servers, so many will pick the server running the map they already have so they can jump straight into the action. Bit of a shame really. But I suppose as long as the 40-1 server keeps running custom maps I'll be happy

I've always thought that regarding maps, the more the merrier. Throw in everything that is fun and at least has some semblance of balance. Sheer variety of maps adds greatly to re-playability.

 

[Sulman]

Kaukasus was on yesterday at least for me for the first time. Nice remake but needs some work and just like Stalingrad Kessel it was never intended for 64 players but for 32 so that I wish that those remakes would open the maps a bit more to adjust to the higher player count. Then again we could play it on a 32 player server and I don't want to complain about any new map as I am happy to play all of them to see which one turns out to be good.

I'm curious what RO2's far higher hit probability did to that. Did it make it a lot more ranged? StalingradKessel is absolute murder for the Allies in RO2. A tough assault in RO1 turns into barely being able to get out of the warehouse in HOS.

 

[LugNut]

you should try the RGN custom map server...Only custom maps and they run realism with classic weapon handling......

Thanks, I have, it's a nice server. Unfortunately, it's not usually populated when I play and let's just say that I don't always enjoy the atmosphere there.

Unless I can't get a slot, I'm on the [40-1], it's Classic you see.... IMO the stock maps play better in Classic anyway, so I can put up with them there.

So much affects how a map plays; mode choice, player count, skill and leadership levels, it's a tough job to design a map that works across all variables. I applaud those who take it on.

Keep em coming.

 

[G_Sajer]

I've ranted about this elsewhere in this forum, but I still feel the issue cannot be overstated. Many, MANY players, even enthusiastic ones are not currently equipped with adequate on-line gaming broadband. I think a lot of the reluctance we see in utilizing custom maps is tied up in that. I suppose it's sort of a slow evolution, and one that will not be addressed by individual users until they wake up one day and admit that they cannot run on current servers or purchase new games and run them with any degree of reliability.
And it will happen. People can sit still and be content that they can manage ok on most servers --for now. But it takes them 57 minutes to inhale a 200MB custom map, while many of us can do it in 2 minutes flat. What's the difference? Oh, in most cases, about $20.00 a month. Sure, in some cases it's an economic issue and I sympthize with that. But in a lot of cases it's either lack of understanding, lack of commitment, or just being cheap. I continue to be stunned at folks who can see the sense in pouring hundreds and even thousands into a gaming quality rig, but continue to strangle themselves with 1.544MB/s broadband. Sometimes referred to as a T1 pipe. That's NOT broadband anymore; it's a telegraph key. In my estimation, it was barely broadband in 2006. Speeds of 10MB/s + are more affordable all the time, but folks still don't equate latency with bandwidth. It's that darned 64 slot server, right? That's the problem. If you think 64 slot servers are a chore, what're folks gonna do when their favorite game in on a 512 slot server? 1024 slots? Not possibe? Oh, yes it is. Right around the corner. Technology moves; with you or without you.

 

[Spetz]

I support the idea of more official maps. Hopefully, the mapping contest should yield a few new official maps.

I'm still scratching my head over people's reluctance to involve themselves in custom maps. We've got two servers devoted to them. But the stock server is the leader. It is the most baffling thing I have to deal with. Some folks say they are burnt out with stock maps. Ok. Yet we have 24 maps on the combined servers, and I still see folks jammed in Apts. Some of the custom maps are nothing short of brilliant, yet I see folks avoid them. It has never made a shred of sense to me. The customs are just as accessible on our servers as the stock maps, and just as fun. It's like the kid from the Swedish family who, instead of whitefish and boiled potatos, is offered a plate of Tex-Mex with picante sauce. "Ooooh Nooo, I couldn't possibly eat that." Pizza? "Oooh Nooo, I couldn't possibly eat that." It's a pathology, and needs to be studied in Universities.

My explanation for this phenomenon is a very simple paradox: noone plays custom maps, because noone plays custom maps.

In every game that I have ever played the reasoning is the same. People don't play custom maps because they think "what's the incentive to learn a custom map, when chances are I'm hardly ever going to play it again and not every server hosts it? This makes it a waste of my time to learn if I want to be better at the game." Since most people want to be better at a game, there is little point in them learning a map that is "never" played. Whether this is perceived or actually the case doesn't matter to the player.

There are two ways to make a custom map accepted into the game: 1) have it adopted as an official map, making it a default map; or 2) have it played by a "critical mass" of people. Option 2) is achieved by either a large league for competitve play adopting a custom map, making all competitive players have to play it and therefore public players by extension. An example of this case is the CPL/ESL maps in CS 1.6, mill, fire, strike The other alterivate to 2) which is theoretical and I've not actually seen work, is for ALL (or a large proportion) of the servers to run the SAME custom maps in rotation that the server admins agree are good. This option might work for RO2 if all server admins could cooperate.

These two solutions work because they solve the "noone plays custom maps, because noone plays custom maps" paradox.

However, adding more official maps is the best solution. So, for the mapping contest I suggest that we push for at least 3 of the best maps (play tested for balance I hope, not just visual) to be implemented as official maps. To be honest though, it would be hard to create a more unbalanced map than ROF!

 

[Gut_You_Up]

I only want to play custom maps because I want to learn new maps. Old maps are old maps, boring...give me maps to have fun in different ways. It's just boring to play the same maps over and over.

:IS2:

 

[G_Sajer]

My explanation for this phenomenon is a very simple paradox: noone plays custom maps, because noone plays custom maps.
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Ok, this is worth dicussing. I agree with your assertion about the paradox.
No question, but I believe there is more. One has to ask the question, why is this in the first place? In a phrase, "instant gratification." Why invest 10, 20, 30 minutes in a download when you can grab what's on the shelf? Nine times out of ten folks will indulge "right now," rather than invest time. And what's frustrating is that, once downloaded, the map is instantly available indefinitely. Further, I'd assert that the whole reason STEAM invested money and time to create WORKSHOP was primarily intended as a measure to diminish this behavior to the benefit of their game developer clients.

With regard to server operators cooperating with map rotation collaberation? Could happen, but not likely. Too convoluted, and after what I've observed over some 8 months on my own servers, ridged map rotation is the fastest trip to an empty server available. I've tried it with quality line-ups. Total failure. The only great success I ever had was running "Bridges" 24/7. But that too, wears out. My best overall success with customs has been combining a broad map rotation with voting. It's impossible to please everyone, but if you reward players with maximum control over their environment, most will be content. You will develop a clientele.

The thing that continues to vex me is the knowledge that properly equipped players can access custom maps almost as fast as stock ones. But only folks that are truely dedicated to on-line gaming are for the moment making the investment.

 

[kathmandu]

My explanation for this phenomenon is a very simple paradox: noone plays custom maps, because noone plays custom maps.
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Ok, this is worth dicussing. I agree with your assertion about the paradox.
No question, but I believe there is more. One has to ask the question, why is this in the first place? In a phrase, "instant gratification." Why invest 10, 20, 30 minutes in a download when you can grab what's on the shelf? Nine times out of ten folks will indulge "right now," rather than invest time. And what's frustrating is that, once downloaded, the map is instantly available indefinitely. Further, I'd assert that the whole reason STEAM invested money and time to create WORKSHOP was primarily intended as a measure to diminish this behavior to the benefit of their game developer clients.

With regard to server operators cooperating with map rotation collaberation? Could happen, but not likely. Too convoluted, and after what I've observed over some 8 months on my own servers, ridged map rotation is the fastest trip to an empty server available. I've tried it with quality line-ups. Total failure. The only great success I ever had was running "Bridges" 24/7. But that too, wears out. My best overall success with customs has been combining a broad map rotation with voting. It's impossible to please everyone, but if you reward players with maximum control over their environment, most will be content. You will develop a clientele.

The thing that continues to vex me is the knowledge that properly equipped players can access custom maps almost as fast as stock ones. But only folks that are truely dedicated to on-line gaming are for the moment making the investment.

the voice of the wisdom has speaked again

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Well, unfortunately for now, the Workshop does not work properly with all of the maps. About a third of them still will not download for me, so I use the links the mappers post for manual downloads. To some players, even those that want to play the custom maps, that has to be a deterrent. The larger size map downloads compared to ROOST doesn't help much either for some.

I certainly wish I saw more servers running custom maps, but you also have to sympathize with the server owners. Its probably a delicate balance to get and keep a player audience.

Now I'm sure when the latest mapping contest is judged and all, TWI will incorporate most if not all the maps in a new update as they did with other contests with ROOST, and I think KF.

 

[G_Sajer]

This is quite true. WORKSHOP is a work in progress. We all know there are flaws. But it is a start, and it may eventually supplant the need for re-directs. But for right now, we will maintain a re-direct that will work in tandem with WORKSHOP. That way, we should have our bases covered. But honestly, if one has decent broadband, even the re-direct speed is very crisp.

 

[7-CLOWN-7]

Well the CLOWNS HEROES SERVER always has the latest custom maps and usually updated to the minute or at worse case within the same day of release.

It's a Classic Server in the US (East Coast). No rotation. Map Voting, Quick Redirect.

And as many of the server admins here we all take pride in what we can do to get folks into the servers. Our server sits empty most hours, days, weeks.

No need to worry about Workshop - Stay in same servers all the time and make a community out of that server, this way you will only get issues when maps have been updated on that particular server. Once everyone makes a particular server their home then those few Custom Map servers will always be full and you will have no need to go elsewhere.

You could even read these forums for when updates have gone out or released, then delete the particular map file from Cache folder and delete listing within the Cache.ini for that particular map.

I have no issues because I only play on one server. I don't use Workshop and I follow my above routine upon every new map release.

I'm out here hourly if not daily looking for the latest releases and within minutes to hours of their release they are up and running on our server.

We as admins put these RO2 servers up for the community, some for their clans, and some to build new communities. Doesn't cost you folks anything - get out there fill them up and make them your own...

 

[Spetz]

My explanation for this phenomenon is a very simple paradox: noone plays custom maps, because noone plays custom maps.
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Ok, this is worth discussing. I agree with your assertion about the paradox.
No question, but I believe there is more. One has to ask the question, why is this in the first place? In a phrase, "instant gratification." Why invest 10, 20, 30 minutes in a download when you can grab what's on the shelf? Nine times out of ten folks will indulge "right now," rather than invest time. And what's frustrating is that, once downloaded, the map is instantly available indefinitely. Further, I'd assert that the whole reason STEAM invested money and time to create WORKSHOP was primarily intended as a measure to diminish this behavior to the benefit of their game developer clients

Thank you for support of my paradox.

Yes, I think it is partly instant gratification. What I think when a custom map comes up to download is: "what is the point in spending 5 minutes downloading this map when there is a chance that I may never play it again or everyone else on the server has quit?" Back to my paradox again: if you are faced with a custom map downloading screen, how do you know that once you have spent the time downloading it, that there will be anyone else left on the server to play against? Everyone just quits when this happens because they think everyone else will also quit!

The steam workshop point is quite interesting. However, there is a problem with steam workshop which is that you have no idea which maps are likely to be played and so which maps to download. How do I know that time spent downloading a given map will be wasted or not?

Therefore, a solution for this is some sort of widely appreciated "recommended map list" (which is exactly what official maps do). Steam workshop is probably not going to implement an idea I'm going to propose for "probability use" rankings for custom content, i.e. the relative usage probability a custom map has on all servers running the game. This would help me solve the problem of knowing which custom maps to download.

With regard to server operators cooperating with map rotation collaberation? Could happen, but not likely. Too convoluted, and after what I've observed over some 8 months on my own servers, ridged map rotation is the fastest trip to an empty server available. I've tried it with quality line-ups. Total failure.

I agree with you that server operators collaborating is perhaps too convoluted because it is far too complicated to come to an agreement with critical mass over a recommended custom map list because everyone will have their own opinion of which custom maps are best. I don't see it happening another way, however.

My best overall success with customs has been combining a broad map rotation with voting. It's impossible to please everyone, but if you reward players with maximum control over their environment, most will be content. You will develop a clientele.

I think only allowing custom maps to be voted on is a sensible solution because then it is guaranteed that most of the server population will remain until the map loads. A new player who doesn't have the map will think: "people have voted this so it must be good and people will be playing it when I load, therefore, it is worth me spending the time downloading it."

The thing that continues to vex me is the knowledge that properly equipped players can access custom maps almost as fast as stock ones. But only folks that are truly dedicated to on-line gaming are for the moment making the investment.

Yes, unfortunately, this is the way it will be. The issue is how to get all the casual players on to the same custom maps.

The only way this is achieved is with a critical mass forcing a set of maps. This can be done either with the official map route (my earlier option 1); or a league adopting a set of maps (not possible in RO2?); or all servers running the same set of custom maps so that players accept these are widely played. If all the main servers ran the same custom maps, you can quite well be assured that they will be implemented into the game in an official capacity at some point!

It's a paradox. Hopefully, the map contest will yield 3 or more new maps.

Indeed, the server admins could just adopt a map pack of the top 5 maps of the contest because these are very unlikely to be bad even though only one can win officially. Bundle these into an RO2 map pack and the critical mass problem will be almost solved. I think this is the most realistic solution.

 

[Sensemann]

I've ranted about this elsewhere in this forum, but I still feel the issue cannot be overstated. Many, MANY players, even enthusiastic ones are not currently equipped with adequate on-line gaming broadband. I think a lot of the reluctance we see in utilizing custom maps is tied up in that. I suppose it's sort of a slow evolution, and one that will not be addressed by individual users until they wake up one day and admit that they cannot run on current servers or purchase new games and run them with any degree of reliability.
And it will happen. People can sit still and be content that they can manage ok on most servers --for now. But it takes them 57 minutes to inhale a 200MB custom map, while many of us can do it in 2 minutes flat. What's the difference? Oh, in most cases, about $20.00 a month. Sure, in some cases it's an economic issue and I sympthize with that. But in a lot of cases it's either lack of understanding, lack of commitment, or just being cheap. I continue to be stunned at folks who can see the sense in pouring hundreds and even thousands into a gaming quality rig, but continue to strangle themselves with 1.544MB/s broadband. Sometimes referred to as a T1 pipe. That's NOT broadband anymore; it's a telegraph key. In my estimation, it was barely broadband in 2006. Speeds of 10MB/s + are more affordable all the time, but folks still don't equate latency with bandwidth. It's that darned 64 slot server, right? That's the problem. If you think 64 slot servers are a chore, what're folks gonna do when their favorite game in on a 512 slot server? 1024 slots? Not possibe? Oh, yes it is. Right around the corner. Technology moves; with you or without you.

Sir, it's not a freaking money issue. AT ALL. It's impatience and the attitude that you find by so many in today's world: I want/demand everything NOW, because I am ENTITLED.

Give me one, I repeat, ONE, feasible excuse that justifies a complaint about having to download custom maps? Be that re-direct, workshop or elsewhere.
I am sorry, I fail to understand.

I am in China. You know what that means? Downloading from e.g. your server or 2.Fjg? It means that downloading via re-direct, a map like Winterwald can take me up to 15 minutes and just last weekend, the map was over due to lockdown, once at 96% , once at 91% ....
Who is to blame? ME. Not because I couldn't afford a faster internt (there is simply no faster internet available where I am), but for me not downloading the maps prior to joining the server. Bad example actually, as Winterwald was just getting updated and I was ingame.

However, people complaining about "oh, I have to download a map all the time, I WANT IT NOW" are the typical example of our sick entitlement societies.
I mean, is it really that hard to simply start your computer, start RO 2, minimize the game, drink a coffee, read the forums or even better, world news, then maximize the game and start playing custom maps? Because guess what: they downloaded while you did sth else.

PS: G_Sajer, you hopefully understood that I was not addressing you. Just the freaking whiners that can't be arsed but complain.

 

[Randy Newman]

The only way to resolve the paradox Sensemann and others have alluded to is as follows:

TWI needs to incorporate a few new maps as soon as possible.

That's it. The ball is solely in their court on this.

People are too lazy and impatient.

In a sense, I am no better. I too want new maps being adopted en masse NOW!

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

The only way to resolve the paradox Sensemann and others have alluded to is as follows:

TWI needs to incorporate a few new maps as soon as possible.

That's it. The ball is solely in their court on this.

People are too lazy and impatient.

In a sense, I am no better. I too want new maps being adopted en masse NOW!

That is one solution, but before they incorporate the maps, they will need to make sure they are polished up to 'stock' standards, or close to them. AND the maps need to be done. Once TWI incorporates the maps into the game, they are the final versions.

But honestly, you can't blame TWI for the mentality of a lot of players. (Not saying you are). It is what it is.

 

[rikmarques]

My explanation for this phenomenon is a very simple paradox: noone plays custom maps, because noone plays custom maps.
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Ok, this is worth dicussing. I agree with your assertion about the paradox.
No question, but I believe there is more. One has to ask the question, why is this in the first place? In a phrase, "instant gratification." Why invest 10, 20, 30 minutes in a download when you can grab what's on the shelf? Nine times out of ten folks will indulge "right now," rather than invest time.

To be honest, I don't care about who don't want to download a custom map now and then. I even think that's a distorted way to filter players that don't bring much to the game. Someone that doesn't have the patience to wait for a freaking simple download, probably will not have the right attitude towards the game or the community. I'd like to see those far and leaving.