Beta Map Mamayev Kurgan 15th Oct Beta 1

[ViViD]

For information on the battlefield and the help I have recieved putting this together view this thread http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27662


Download File:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qjac29dy1mj

Images:








If you wish to give feedback on any issue or how to improve it, please make sure to add

a) How many players were in the fight
b) The problem or issue
c) How you think you can resolve the issue
d) If any mutators are naturally on that server.

Hope you guys enjoy it, I think this will be quite a fun map with a lot of options for gameplay style.

 

[Trendkill]

I just ran over the map in practice mode, it looks very nice, and here's a some things I think could be added/improved:

The summit looks very bare, maybe a few more shell holes around the place and just a bit more elevation to make it not looks so flat. Also, the fortifications on the summit look a bit too tidy, wooden trenches neatly lined with sandbags and nice square wooden bunkers. It's all a bit of a contrast from the small trenches and such further down the hill which looks much more authentic in my opinion. I think a reconstruction of the fortifications on the summit to look a bit more 'rag-tag' would help the look of the map.

Going further down the map I definitely think it could use more shell holes of big and small varieties all over, some places do look a tad boring, with little cover. I also think more actual trenches could be worth adding, if you look at the picture you used for the overhead map you'll see there's noticeable trenches, albeit quite small ones. Small, simple trenchworks dotted over the entire hill near the objectives I think would help whichever team has control of that area actually defend it. This will also give something for attacking forces to actually aim for and clear out, rather than just sitting around in an open space trying to capture it.
I also remember a map, FestungKurland I think, it had dead bodies lying around that made it look like fighting had already taken place. If you could find out how to do this it would definitely add an extra element to the look and feel of the map.

Down at the Soviet spawn I think everything it pretty okay, as I've said already, dirt trenches and log bunkers dug into the hill would be a nice addition. As well as some scenery to reduce the bareness when you look back at where the city would be. When the Russians spawn in the ravine however, the random artillery seems to have a chance of falling on their heads.

The placing of the objectives are think are pretty good. I think that the summit should be in German hands when the map starts, just as the two objectives nearest the Russian spawn should already belong to the Russians when the map starts, this'll mean less running up or downhill before teams actually start making headway against each other.
I don't know how many reinforcements each side has, and as I said I only had a run around in practice mode, but I fear that for a back and forth map like this 25 minutes may not even be enough to allow one team to capture all objectives. I think the Russians should have a small percentage more reinforcements than the Germans, mainly due to the fact they have to attack uphill, which no doubt will result in more casualties.

One last thing I think you should do is reduce the view distance greatly, this'll mean MGs can't just mow down players from great distances and it will also mean much closer quarters fighting will be required to capture objectives (bayonets anyone? ).

Sorry for the huge post, however I don't think the changes I'm suggesting will be too taxing if, of course, you decide to take them on board.

 

[D3terioNation]

Wow looking forward to playing this!

 

[BartBear]

DL added here:
​

 

[Luther]

My FPS was shocking, from 200 to 165, come on something is wrong there .
In all seriousness any servers got this map up?

 

[batcaveslimer]

Nice critique trendkill

One last thing I think you should do is reduce the view distance greatly, this'll mean MGs can't just mow down players from great distances and it will also mean much closer quarters fighting will be required to capture objectives (bayonets anyone? ).

Not sure if I agree with this. I think MGs should be able to mow down players over distances.

 

[ViViD]

I just ran over the map in practice mode, it looks very nice, and here's a some things I think could be added/improved:

The summit looks very bare, maybe a few more shell holes around the place and just a bit more elevation to make it not looks so flat. Also, the fortifications on the summit look a bit too tidy, wooden trenches neatly lined with sandbags and nice square wooden bunkers. It's all a bit of a contrast from the small trenches and such further down the hill which looks much more authentic in my opinion. I think a reconstruction of the fortifications on the summit to look a bit more 'rag-tag' would help the look of the map.

I will rough up the top area and make it a little more ragtag but the bunkers need to be harderned as this area was a prepared HQ defence, this differs from down the hill as they were not fixed fortifictions.

Going further down the map I definitely think it could use more shell holes of big and small varieties all over, some places do look a tad boring, with little cover. I also think more actual trenches could be worth adding, if you look at the picture you used for the overhead map you'll see there's noticeable trenches, albeit quite small ones. Small, simple trenchworks dotted over the entire hill near the objectives I think would help whichever team has control of that area actually defend it. This will also give something for attacking forces to actually aim for and clear out, rather than just sitting around in an open space trying to capture it.
I also remember a map, FestungKurland I think, it had dead bodies lying around that made it look like fighting had already taken place. If you could find out how to do this it would definitely add an extra element to the look and feel of the map.

Will aim for some more trenches as you suggest, there was no fighting beforehand, so i doubt I will be putting dead bodies around, also with all the activity of other people around the place especially played with 25 a side I doubt a need for dead bodies there will be enough around <smile>

Down at the Soviet spawn I think everything it pretty okay, as I've said already, dirt trenches and log bunkers dug into the hill would be a nice addition. As well as some scenery to reduce the bareness when you look back at where the city would be. When the Russians spawn in the ravine however, the random artillery seems to have a chance of falling on their heads.

No log bunkers were placed on the side of the hill historically, so I won't be placing them there, but with the added trenches that you talked about above it may help. Will look at the random artillery and check none are falling to close.

The placing of the objectives are think are pretty good. I think that the summit should be in German hands when the map starts, just as the two objectives nearest the Russian spawn should already belong to the Russians when the map starts, this'll mean less running up or downhill before teams actually start making headway against each other.

I don't know how many reinforcements each side has, and as I said I only had a run around in practice mode, but I fear that for a back and forth map like this 25 minutes may not even be enough to allow one team to capture all objectives. I think the Russians should have a small percentage more reinforcements than the Germans, mainly due to the fact they have to attack uphill, which no doubt will result in more casualties.

Will do as you suggest with the objectives your probably right, it would not necessary for them to cap these and delay the fight a little, was trying to build some suspense before the battle but perhaps not neeeded. On casualties there is 304 each side (this is the size of a battalion of men) will need play testing to know how many men sort I am. Russians have 3 artillery fires where the germans do not this should even the downhill uphill struggle.

One last thing I think you should do is reduce the view distance greatly, this'll mean MGs can't just mow down players from great distances and it will also mean much closer quarters fighting will be required to capture objectives (bayonets anyone? ).

Sorry for the huge post, however I don't think the changes I'm suggesting will be too taxing if, of course, you decide to take them on board.

This one I have to disagree on, if you view the other maps I have created, I am more about achieve realism of combat and the game aspect of many of the other maps in red orchestra create a unrealistic perception on reality. The MG should be a difficult unit to encounter and should be a thorn, most maps they are just a small nuisance, but a well place rifle bolt shot should still be able to take down a mger, also use of smoke from the two commanders will help the tactical move forwards.

Thank you for your thoughtful input its greatly appreciated

 

[Trendkill]

Surely there was fighting before-hand? I was under the impression once the Soviets had managed to regain their lost territory in the middle of the city around the railway station, the Mamayev Kurgan was the scene of a lot of, if not constant fighting throughout the battle of Stalingrad.

I am all for realism, and I'm just going from what I've read about Stalingrad and Soviet fortifications. For instance the bank of the Volga river as well as the the ravines that ran throughout the city were home to many bunkers, headquarters and trenchworks built into the slopes, I wouldn't have thought the Mamayev Kurgan wouldn't have been much different.

Also, while I agree there should be the fortifications around the summit, I at least think they should look a little more rag-tag and less neat, because as I mentioned before, I thought the hill was constantly being fought over. Look at the trenches in Basovka for what, in my opinion, are more authentic looking trenches.

As for the reduced view distance, I understand, maybe thats best left for more urban/industrial Stalingrad maps... I've read a quote about the soldiers fighting inside the factories looking almost 'afro-carribean' due to the smoke, dirt and dust thats stuck to their faces. Maybe I should put this suggestion to Doksta and his new Grain Silo map.

 

[Luther]

After some play testing the map can be won one of two way.

Initially the Germans have the upper hand as once they capture the Ruins they have both the high ground and large arcs of fire, so are able to suppress the assaulting Russians and push them back. The first 10 minutes will be a struggle for the Russians and it will be up to them to capture their first two objectives and create an effective Base of Fire, holding the Germans at bay and reinforcing the caps. Trying to do a blitz as a Russian is highly suicidal initially as 4-5 German machine guns dug in is enough to put a damper on any attack.

What is needed is effective artillery and smoke to slowly allow the Russians to progress, inch by inch which will cost them dearly but it is most rewarding. I can see some teams being demoralized about the amount of deaths they receive but this can happen in any map. Once the Russians have taken the Ruin, the Germans will have a hard time retaking it, so best to focus on a solid defense on the last objective. Now the bunkers in this objective have great Fields of Fire so it is in the best interests of the Germans to reinforce all of these as even forgetting to reinforce one will allow the Russians to move in and flank. This will be a pain in the arse to capture for the Russians but will also be a pain to try and reinforce as a German as they have to run over open ground to get into the objective, easy picking for a Russian mg or a lone rifleman.

Also what I found out is no lone ranger can win this map, or effectively hold an advancing attack. To capture, especially the four large caps requires allot of men and allot of reinforcing.

All in all it is a promising map and wish to see it being played on more servers soon.

 

[ViViD]

Surely there was fighting before-hand? I was under the impression once the Soviets had managed to regain their lost territory in the middle of the city around the railway station, the Mamayev Kurgan was the scene of a lot of, if not constant fighting throughout the battle of Stalingrad.

If you read this post http://www.redorchestragame.com/foru...ad.php?t=27662
, you will gain a lot of history in it here. I even learnt a fairbit Russ is a great source of knowledge.Basicly the hill here was the tidal mark for the german advance on Mamayev Kurgan, they never reached any further then the summit area on this map.

I am all for realism, and I'm just going from what I've read about Stalingrad and Soviet fortifications. For instance the bank of the Volga river as well as the the ravines that ran throughout the city were home to many bunkers, headquarters and trenchworks built into the slopes, I wouldn't have thought the Mamayev Kurgan wouldn't have been much different.

There is a great image from the forum post above, you can view the trenches and so forth, no fixed fortifications on the slopes. But I will put more trenches to make it more substancial to defend down the bottom of the slope.

Also, while I agree there should be the fortifications around the summit, I at least think they should look a little more rag-tag and less neat, because as I mentioned before, I thought the hill was constantly being fought over. Look at the trenches in Basovka for what, in my opinion, are more authentic looking trenches.

I agreed with you here I thought about going down the basovka path of trenches but I really dislike that problem trenches must be sloped for the terrain and no areas to rest your rifle. But I will mess up the area somewhat so its not so clean.

As for the reduced view distance, I understand, maybe thats best left for more urban/industrial Stalingrad maps... I've read a quote about the soldiers fighting inside the factories looking almost 'afro-carribean' due to the smoke, dirt and dust thats stuck to their faces. Maybe I should put this suggestion to Doksta and his new Grain Silo map.

This is a slipper slope, on view distances, in reality most view distance even in combat are 400-600mon a bad day. Red Orchestra does not do distance well.
If you view many of the youtube newsreels you can see that even in the heaviest of fighting smoke and that are issues but are normally temporary or localised not something that covers everywhere like a haze. I believe the way doc has done his map with the blowing smoke is enough to put your aim off but not a heap to make long distance weapons like bolts and snipers useless. Again this just my opinion, although some more of that blowing smoke may be needed.

 

[ViViD]

After some play testing the map can be won one of two way.

Initially the Germans have the upper hand as once they capture the Ruins they have both the high ground and large arcs of fire, so are able to suppress the assaulting Russians and push them back. The first 10 minutes will be a struggle for the Russians and it will be up to them to capture their first two objectives and create an effective Base of Fire, holding the Germans at bay and reinforcing the caps. Trying to do a blitz as a Russian is highly suicidal initially as 4-5 German machine guns dug in is enough to put a damper on any attack.

What is needed is effective artillery and smoke to slowly allow the Russians to progress, inch by inch which will cost them dearly but it is most rewarding. I can see some teams being demoralized about the amount of deaths they receive but this can happen in any map. Once the Russians have taken the Ruin, the Germans will have a hard time retaking it, so best to focus on a solid defense on the last objective. Now the bunkers in this objective have great Fields of Fire so it is in the best interests of the Germans to reinforce all of these as even forgetting to reinforce one will allow the Russians to move in and flank. This will be a pain in the arse to capture for the Russians but will also be a pain to try and reinforce as a German as they have to run over open ground to get into the objective, easy picking for a Russian mg or a lone rifleman.

Also what I found out is no lone ranger can win this map, or effectively hold an advancing attack. To capture, especially the four large caps requires allot of men and allot of reinforcing.

All in all it is a promising map and wish to see it being played on more servers soon.

Thanks for the feedback here, do you feel more artillery is needed for the russian. As usual with my maps seems teamwork is the key, I make the maps I make to give a realistic dipiction of ww2 eastern combat.

 

[ViViD]

Finally played this with a full server, somethings I will be changing and correct me if I am wrong here

1. 25 minutes way too long. I am thinking about 16 minutes

2. more craters, rough up the south flank like the north flank

3. ammo crates at every objective, perhaps a little in an exposed position so not to have mgers sit in one spot and get resupply without risk

4. some extra spawn points for all objectives so that even a move of 20 metres forward this will get more people in the battle sooner.

5. Summit and two lower areas are already capped for each side.

 

[Trendkill]

Finally played this with a full server, somethings I will be changing and correct me if I am wrong here

Damn, wish I'd caught that game. What server was it on?

I believe the way doc has done his map with the blowing smoke is enough to put your aim off but not a heap to make long distance weapons like bolts and snipers useless. Again this just my opinion, although some more of that blowing smoke may be needed.

I haven't managed to play on his Grain Silo map, the map doesn't seem to show up in the list in-game.... but blowing smoke sounds a good substitute, of course reducing the view distance effects the entire map, not just a selected indoor area.

 

[ViViD]

Gamespace 44 players Australian server - has this on it map list. To play this map you need to probably check it out night time sydney time. Unless you put pressure on your admins to upload it.

To me this is far from the standard RO map game play, it more of a simulation of true ww2 combat.

It will normally take 2-3 shots at a person from a good bolter to pull a target down at ranges the combat is. It has the ability where crawling over open land to the next objective is more advicable then running.

Where MGers are behind the attack supressing areas, not in the frontline get shot quickly.

 

[7-CLOWN-7]

We have this up and running on our server as well for the US folks to try. 40 player server with 100+ customs, AB, EHMG, and CC. Come join us.

2Mannys ROOST