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Machine Gun functionality

Pizzagrenadier

Grizzled Veteran
Feb 9, 2006
68
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So how will the MG's in ROOST work?

Will they be pretty much the same as they are in the mod right now? As in when you deploy you are forced into looking down the sights? That is one thing that bothered me about the mod MG's. You were either undeployed and not ready to shoot, or you were deployed and stuck in an IS view with limited visibility. Too much of the extreme.

Personally, I would prefer if you hit F to deploy as normal, and it put out the bipod but left your head up slightly above the sights, giving you a better view...then you are able to select IS like you do now. This would allow for MG's to shoot with their heads up for some covering fire, and then look down the sights for more accurate shooting. MG's need to be more functional than they are currently in the mod or they will never be the weapons they were on the real WWII battlefield.

As far as accuracy...it always seemed that the MG's in the mod were hideously inaccurate due to the severe shaking of your sight picture (which was way overdone IMHO). Has the accuracy or functionality of MG shooting changed in ROOST?

I hope you retain the ability of the German MG's to assault fire...though I think the MG-42 should be able to be fired like that as well-because it was irl (there is excellent footage out there of it being done, despite the naysayers).

I just wanted to ask about MG's as they are my favorite (and most overlooked) thing in most games.

Now, this will definately cause some eyebrows to raise. but here goes...

This is one of my spiels I give to games when it comes to MG's:

DoD we all know is not a realistic game. Not even remotely. Yet, there are certain elements of the game that play out realistically when it comes to tactics. One is the effect of MG's on the battlefield. In clan play, the most vital part of your strats were your MG's. They were in effect, the true area denial weapons that they were in WWII. A well placed MG, and a skilled MG user could dominate a map until overtaken by a true team effort (or nades lol). Sure, the railgun kars could take them down, but the fact remains that the MG's in that game can be a BIG part of the game and how it plays tactically (even if all realism is absent). DoD always seemed to play tactically realistic and yet be a frag fest. It is like WWII tactics on crack...way too fast and way too hyper...but realistic tactics none the less.

You have to work together and use your MG's as a base of fire. You get your SMGs in close in the assault, with rifles at midrange supporting the MG, or as your "bayonet strength" up close for nade assaults.

Now, I really hate DoD as a game and the community is perhaps one of the WORST out there...but I crave realistic tactical play, and no other game has delivered. RO the mod was always too open ended map wise to ever create battlefield tension through manipulation of pressure points.

In my mind, the way to create a realistic tactical WWII battlefield in FPS form is to have effective MG's and good maps. Maps need at least some sort of pressure point or choke point, or else all you end up with is an empty and isolated battlefield full of small individual fights (which may be fun in some ways for the individuals involved). Not that you have to have the small and tight maps of DoD, but FPS battlefields need at least a little pressure point or they lose cohesion as a battle.

Flame away if you want that I actualy find aspects of DoD well done, but I simply want the ultimate tactical WWII sim, and there are things I would take from a lot of games to create it. So far, ROOST offers me the best chance at my dream game...I just wanted to add my 2 cents about MG's and gameplay.

But alas, at this late a date...might be like pissing in the wind.

Anyway, great work, I love the mod and I love how this game is developing. Can't wait to assault Konigplatz, holy crap does that look amazing!

And I am truly inspired by the fact that you modeled it on a nearly 1:1 scale.

Truly great work!
 
The free-look view while deploy has been suggested before, and there's still some hope that it will be included in the final game.

As for machine gun area denial...at least from my experience in BFE, the mg can be extremely effective in limited enemy movement on even large, wide open maps. On Ponryi an mg set up in the rear can keep the enemy from bypassing the trenches across the open ground, and on maps like RoadtoBerlin and Moscow Highway you can saturate possible enemy hiding places from the edge of view. Creating chokepoints, however, can often lead to nade-spamming problems, like Danzig and Warsaw. I'd say the mgs are already pretty good for suppression, if used effectively.
 
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ok, cool. I hope they add free look for MG's

We will have to agree to disagree on the effect of MG's in RO. I have yet to see a game really be dominated by any MG anywhere that lasted for more than a few minutes. I have yet to see an MG in RO that changed the game tactically for the map. But, meh, maybe that's just my experience.

MG's last seconds, at most a full minute in RO. The rail gun rifles dominate them even more in RO than kar whores ever have in DoD. I think it is partly due to map design, partly to MG functionality (which is the reason for my post).

As far as nade fests...I see what you mean. I don't want the maps TOO small, just more linear than current. You can do choke points and pressure areas without doing a confined city map too...you just need to be clever in design.
 
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Pizzagrenadier said:
We will have to agree to disagree on the effect of MG's in RO. I have yet to see a game really be dominated by any MG anywhere that lasted for more than a few minutes. I have yet to see an MG in RO that changed the game tactically for the map. But, meh, maybe that's just my experience.

Yeah, it takes some skill and coordination for the mg to really shine. If you can get a few riflemen to support you then you can get some great killzones established. I remember a match on Moscow Highway where a squad of us moved up with the mg into the Farm and managed to catch 2/3rds of the German team trying to flank towards the trenches...the mg mowed them down and completely destroyed their offensive plan, giving us time to really fortify the Farm before their next wave.
 
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Pizzagrenadier said:
Sounds cool, unfortunately, that never seems to happen to me in game lol :p

Still, can't wait for this game, as I'm sure you agree :)

Then you ought to join BFE:)


Yeah, when the MG is in the hands of someone who really knows how and where to deploy it, it can really be a thing of awe.

But I do agree that currently, it's a bit limited, and I've supported the idea of non-IS deployed position. That would actually make the tracers useful.

Also wanted to mention the recoil is suppose to be crazy as these MG's aren't tripod mounted.


Now imagine if RO had MG tripods...
 
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Mormegil said:
Now imagine if RO had MG tripods...

:D

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that HMG's just dont quite fit into ROO's gameplay style. As nice as it would be to have a fully represented battle field, I think you just need more players. (Besides, like Ding has said many times, RL war isnt "fun" from a gameplay POV since defenders had a HUGE advantage which doesnt make for fun gameplay, I would like it, but most probably wouldnt)
 
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Pizza,

Good to see more "realism buff" MG'ers here :) I agree with you except some small points.

Personally, I would prefer if you hit F to deploy as normal, and it put out the bipod but left your head up slightly above the sights, giving you a better view...then you are able to select IS like you do now. This would allow for MG's to shoot with their heads up for some covering fire, and then look down the sights for more accurate shooting. MG's need to be more functional than they are currently in the mod or they will never be the weapons they were on the real WWII battlefield.
I don't like this idea,to get a successfull suspression you need to know where you are shooting.I don't think MG'ers IRL "suspressed" like this way.It would work on really short distances,but we have the hip mode for that.

I'm not saying it's fully unnecessary, I'd always want to see more realism in the game.If it's considered for implementation, accuracy really should be tuned down for to prevent "abuse" and match IRL levels.

I hope you retain the ability of the German MG's to assault fire...though I think the MG-42 should be able to be fired like that as well-because it was irl (there is excellent footage out there of it being done, despite the naysayers).
This has been talked to death,it's possible to hip MG-42.BUT I have those videos, and you should "really" take your time to get into proper hipping position.I'd like to see it in the game too(for realism's sake :) ), but it should only work with room clearing with enemy distances like 5-6 meters.


And about MG's denying access in maps.We DO have that ability in RO.But there are many factors keeping it from it's main power.I can talk pages about it that I'm so full ,but I won't now. :)

The main problem is being the nadespam and for the others,Avron just summed main points :) MG'ers need some attention devs!

Avron said:
The main problems with the MGs are other:
- popping up rifleman
- no penetration
- no suppression effect
 
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Thanks for the responses guys...good to see I'm not alone in wanting MG's to get some loving.

As far as hip shooting the '42...well, I can see your point. I could live without it, but I would like to see it put in in some capacity. Perhaps you must stand still to shoot like that, or move very slowly. It would be only good for room clearing like you said. Still, the option couldn't hurt...err maybe...

As far as accuracy, I tend to disagree with the point that accuracy needs to be upped to prevent abuse. Even Bipod LMG's were not as inaccurate as you might think. Of course, a tripod mount is superior, but an LMG gunner set up prone with a bipod is nothing to sneeze at. Part of the reason the recoil should be reduced in ROOST is because while firing prone, the whole body absorbs the recoil. Only if you hold down the trigger for more than a 5 round burst would you really begin to lose your sight picture. I don't like the shaking that the screen does, but would prefer a slight lift or slower movement rather than outright shaking which is unrealistic IMHO. The recoil moves the gun backwards, not up and down like a seizure.

MG recoil is way overdone IMHO, and toning it down would not make LMG's too powerful, but in my mind, it would bring them right up about to where they should be. The real limitations on LMG's was ammo and barrel heat, not recoil as much (though that is a factor, don't get me wrong).

But anyway, thats just my view of how to bring MG's up to par. At this point, the devs are probrably done with them anyway, so perhaps it's moot.
 
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well.. i think the pop-up-shooting is the real killer of MG. There are a few small things, but that's the big thing.

IRL people don't pop up and have their rifle pointing exactly where it wonce was. If they would just make someones view move a little bit in any direction in the process of standing up then there would be no problem at all. It'd be an insanely easy fix.
 
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Maybe having the IS go "down" as you come out of crouch could help remedy this. I mean IRL, if you are looking down your sights as you stand up the inertia of the rifle will "pull" the barrel down, ultimately preventing the rifleman from getting an aimed shot off for about a second. More than enough time for him to be mowed down by and mger.
 
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Innociv said:
well.. i think the pop-up-shooting is the real killer of MG. There are a few small things, but that's the big thing.

IRL people don't pop up and have their rifle pointing exactly where it wonce was. If they would just make someones view move a little bit in any direction in the process of standing up then there would be no problem at all. It'd be an insanely easy fix.

We talked this to death with my teammate maximus :) (He always plays riflemen,and the only person that has no problems of picking me off :) )

The thing is,your aim doesn't go off like you think now.We tested it,and the aim stays exactly where it is when crouching/standing if you know how to handle your gun.

The main problem with so called "pop-up riflemen" is the lack of crouching and standing modelling.You can instantly "pop up" and crouch in no time.IRL you don't have those "instant" pop-ups.
 
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As a passionate MGer, I have to somewhat disagree to the OP: MGs in RO are very effective weapons, and if used properly they are very accurate.

The main ""problem" why you don't have this Area Denial effect out of DoD is not nading or pop-up riflemen, but the fact that most times, the enemies have one or even two ways around you. So not only using the MG takes skill, but also the proper positioning, and the support of your squadmates.
 
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Oh here we go. I was wondering how long it would take for these vets to show up. I knew exactly what they were gonna say.

Bah.

You may be good with an MG. But the fact remains that they just don't have much tactical effect on the game. They are a minor nuisance at times. They simply aren't area denial, no matter how good you are with an MG in game. This isn't a slight against you, just that I think MG's need some loving to make them the weapons system they were on the WWII battlefield. The squad was not cenetered around them for nothing. Rifles in this version dominate the firefight (with some SMG's dominating up close).

The MG's should dominate the firefight at range. The rifles are there to take and hold ground and throw grenades. The SMGs are there to give fire up close in the assault and lead the rifles into position.

I think it is partially pop up riflemen, map design, and the limited visibility and excessive recoil (shaking) of the MG that makes them less than what they should be.

Other than map design, these really are minor issues that can be addressed.

Also, I notice that the disagreements in this argument usually come from the vets. This happens a lot it seems whenever there are suggestions. The older players always say, "Hey, you just need to learn to use them!". Which is natural I think. You took the time to learn the game and have played hard to get the skills. But my goal is improving the game for WWII realism, not protecting a skill or group of players.

There are problems with MG's as they are now. I am not suggesting easy mode. Just small changes to make them more realistic for one, and second, to make them more functional and usable.

It makes me wonder...do you want a new game at all? Why not just play the mod once the new RO comes out? Do you genuinely want impovements, or do you not want to learn a new skill set?

Sorry if this is antagonistic, but this always happens in suggestion forums for almost any change that would force an old player to learn new tricks.

My own goal is a realistic WWII shooter that balacnes the weapons, as it stands, I don't think MG's are up to it. But alas...no big deal.
 
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