KF M4 Update
- Thread starter Uzurak
- Start date
You are just repeating the arguments you posed earlier in this thread, none of which really argues that the M4 needed penetration in any convincing measure.
Also, experience trumps theory, and I have a lot of experience to back up what I say. When I talked about the recoil and reload, I was talking about the gun off-perk. I could still find a way to make it useful, though not as I would have liked it to be. I understand the reasons why. (Recoil and Reload takes a bit of getting used to.) I later switched the M4 out for the Buzzsaw bow, because perked up, it deals 1000 damage per shot, and penetrates through up to 60 players. If you could get a narrow corridor going, you could double the damage output by bouncing the saw blades between the floor and ceiling for up to 3 hits. Stupidly OP doesn't even begin to describe the Buzzsaw Bow.
Also likewise, any gun would feel like a crap gun in the hands of a low-skilled player.
Anyways, why bother making a video when you could always stalk me online in the servers I play on?
Mrsirr & Spartan1388 : Not to mention that while damage from bullets IRL can have wildly different types of traumas associated with it, quantifying that kind of trauma would be pretty hard to implement properly in an online game. I mean, Tripwire can't even align the head hitboxes properly with the model animation, you really expect them to properly be able to model hitboxes for vital organs and major arteries?
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You are just repeating the arguments you posed earlier in this thread, none of which really argues that the M4 needed penetration in any convincing measure.
Also, experience trumps theory, and I have a lot of experience to back up what I say. When I talked about the recoil and reload, I was talking about the gun off-perk. I could still find a way to make it useful, though not as I would have liked it to be. I understand the reasons why. (Recoil and Reload takes a bit of getting used to.) I later switched the M4 out for the Buzzsaw bow, because perked up, it deals 1000 damage per shot, and penetrates through up to 60 players. If you could get a narrow corridor going, you could double the damage output by bouncing the saw blades between the floor and ceiling for up to 3 hits. Stupidly OP doesn't even begin to describe the Buzzsaw Bow.
Also likewise, any gun would feel like a crap gun in the hands of a low-skilled player.
Anyways, why bother making a video when you could always stalk me online in the servers I play on?
Mrsirr & Spartan1388 : Not to mention that while damage from bullets IRL can have wildly different types of traumas associated with it, quantifying that kind of trauma would be pretty hard to implement properly in an online game. I mean, Tripwire can't even align the head hitboxes properly with the model animation, you really expect them to properly be able to model hitboxes for vital organs and major arteries?
Single Buzzsaw disc won't hit the same target for the second time on the bounce, if that's what you mean. So all classes are OP yet Commando is versatile and balanced? Tough sh*t.
Not like M4 need a recoil reduce anyway, I can agree on reload bonus for the sake of M4/M203 but I don't think it needs the base recoil reduce. Also if you know some people who can headshot with EVERY bullet I guess TWI did a good job somewhere about head hitboxes, don't you think? Just because you can't aim head with offperk M4 it doesn't mean it needs a base recoil reduce either. Don't you think, superman?
M4 needs some allure for both Commando and Demolition. Pierce is not a bad or overpowered idea after all. Instead of flamebaiting with huge red letters or cutting them down, you should seriously consider reading my posts and think about them. At the last level M4 just hits 7 point more damage than AK base damage and it gets beaten by its dps after reload. I just pulled that idea because M4 just hits fine but it needed some potential to get allure.
I would like to see a base faster reload time for both (sake of demolition expert) and damage increase and grenade ammunition bonus based on perk level for M4/M203 with piercing bullets for scoped M4.
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Yeah I just mentioned the organs because usually someone brings up deflated lungs when I talk about how little tissue trauma the 5.56 usually causes. I assume that raw tissue destruction is what the damage is based on since there are no heart-shots or lung-shots or anything like that.Mrsirr & Spartan1388 : Not to mention that while damage from bullets IRL can have wildly different types of traumas associated with it, quantifying that kind of trauma would be pretty hard to implement properly in an online game. I mean, Tripwire can't even align the head hitboxes properly with the model animation, you really expect them to properly be able to model hitboxes for vital organs and major arteries?
Frankly I'm not sure what we're even talking about any more.
Spartan and I have derailed several threads with our huge realism conversations at this point
Eh, you and Spartan's realism convo is a lot more interesting than ol' M4 Troll's masturbation here. It's pretty sad that he doesn't even realize that the reason people can headshot with every bullet is because they dug into the guts of the game and analyzed where the Zed hitboxes lie in every frame of animation. Did you know that the Siren's head hitbox veers to her left when she's getting ready to scream?
I just reset my perks to level 0 today, and I found some interesting things as a commando. The Steampunk Tommy Gun actually kicks a lot less than the M4. I was able to keep my shots mostly level much easier than I could for the M4. The M4's recoil is a lot sharper, but it's manageable if you know how much fight to apply to the recoil.
This is interesting since, Tommyguns are known to kick like a mule IRL and a lot of people complained about the recoil, and yet it's the other way around in this game. Also, the SP Tommygun is 5% cheaper than the M4. It's almost as if Tripwire somehow messed up, and swapped the recoil data between the M4 and the SP Tommygun.
So yeah, my opinion stands, M4 does need a buff, but damage and penetration is not where to go. It's just the reload and recoil that could be improved.
I just reset my perks to level 0 today, and I found some interesting things as a commando. The Steampunk Tommy Gun actually kicks a lot less than the M4. I was able to keep my shots mostly level much easier than I could for the M4. The M4's recoil is a lot sharper, but it's manageable if you know how much fight to apply to the recoil.
This is interesting since, Tommyguns are known to kick like a mule IRL and a lot of people complained about the recoil, and yet it's the other way around in this game. Also, the SP Tommygun is 5% cheaper than the M4. It's almost as if Tripwire somehow messed up, and swapped the recoil data between the M4 and the SP Tommygun.
So yeah, my opinion stands, M4 does need a buff, but damage and penetration is not where to go. It's just the reload and recoil that could be improved.
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And I did dug game mechanics, as well... Siren? Oh I feel enlightened, why thank you! Go read about the game mechanics. You don't know anything about recoil cutting or buzzsaw bow, bro.
Also Siren's head hitbox is wonky, her headhitbox is actually infront of face; it needs to be timed precisely since it nods down before screaming. And no, it doesn't veer to left but to the side she currently strafes to. You have to put her head movement and her strafe to the account to score a precise headshot.
Way to go.
You always been saying increasing damage for demo, and giving pierce to commando are overpowered. Yet, I think I managed to prove they're not.
Demolition M4 needs some damage because weapon's price doesn't redeem its small magazine size, long reload and weak damage. Since magazine size, recoil and reload speed is special to commando I offered increasing its damage. You thought increasing the damage of a weapon, that kicks like a mule, and have 30 bullets per magazine which also cost around 1050-3500
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The siren thing explains alot.
On another note, while I'm probably not getting the whole picture since I don't play as commando, today I checked out the M4 and I didn't notice any unbearable recoil and I could usually keep on target if I just jerked the mouse down upon firing. The double shot thing should be fixed though. And I think the reload should be a little bit faster.
On another note, while I'm probably not getting the whole picture since I don't play as commando, today I checked out the M4 and I didn't notice any unbearable recoil and I could usually keep on target if I just jerked the mouse down upon firing. The double shot thing should be fixed though. And I think the reload should be a little bit faster.
Naksiloth : You want the Commando to be more useful? Increase their range of truesight and health bars. That way they can touch cloaked threats like the Patriarch from a longer distance.
You forget the one thing that gives the M4 an edge over the AK, and that is the ammo pool. The M4 starts with 400 bullets, the AK starts with 300. Also, 5.56 Cartridges don't have as much of a kickback as the .45 ACP. This kickback is particularly the reason why the Kriss Vector design was made. If you've ever fired a Thompson on full-auto, you'd realize that it is very very difficult to keep the weapon on target. Yet, a gun nut can fairly easily keep the M16 on its target on full auto fire.
PS : The M4-203 would have been more useful as a Medic or Firebug weapon. Most Demo players pretend that the M4 203 doesn't exist, and only takes it out for a spin if they feel like dicking around and playing terribly.
Oh yeah and ...
Killing Floor Siren head hitbox - YouTube
mrsirr : It's probably because the recoil transient of the M4 is a lot smoother than the more sharper recoil of the bigger Commando weapons like the AK and SCAR.
You forget the one thing that gives the M4 an edge over the AK, and that is the ammo pool. The M4 starts with 400 bullets, the AK starts with 300. Also, 5.56 Cartridges don't have as much of a kickback as the .45 ACP. This kickback is particularly the reason why the Kriss Vector design was made. If you've ever fired a Thompson on full-auto, you'd realize that it is very very difficult to keep the weapon on target. Yet, a gun nut can fairly easily keep the M16 on its target on full auto fire.
PS : The M4-203 would have been more useful as a Medic or Firebug weapon. Most Demo players pretend that the M4 203 doesn't exist, and only takes it out for a spin if they feel like dicking around and playing terribly.
Oh yeah and ...
Killing Floor Siren head hitbox - YouTube
mrsirr : It's probably because the recoil transient of the M4 is a lot smoother than the more sharper recoil of the bigger Commando weapons like the AK and SCAR.
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Wut?
To contribute to the conversation, the M4 has a large ammo pool. That's already an advantage over most of the Commando weapons. If the Commando can aim, then he/she will get headshots most (if not all) of the time, and if they had enough room, they could wait for the zeds to "bleed out". This alone increases their trash killing ability immensely. Keep the M4 for trash, and get a second, bigger gun for Husks, Sirens, and helping with/soloing Scrakes. A reload buff could be helpful, but I think giving it a slightly higher headshot bonus would be the way to go. Spammandos will still spam, while Commandos will get a slight benefit when aiming with this weapon. It still wouldn't make me use it though. AK-47 all the way
That video was taken before TWI fixes the Scrake head hitbox's wonky state with the latest patches. You can check the same user's videos and see the wonky head hitbox Scrake around them. You should open a testmap because I'm not really sure if Siren head hitbox placement is true at this current state. As I remember they hardly veer to sides when they're not nodding.
As for M4/M203 I tried to redeem both weapons. That's why I thought about adding silencer to scoped M4 to explain its weak damage (may be its sharp recoil as well) yet increasing the non-silenced M4/M203's damage. Although ammo pool is nothing as long as you can aim.
edit: just tried it on a testmap, Siren headhitbox dynamically follows the head nod animation. you can drop that outdated information from your head as well... If you're complaining about can not shoot straight, yet also complain about other players abusing it, there's something seriously wrong.
@|WC|Capt.525:
When you cut the phrase up there it sure looks mistaken; AA12 doesn't have reduced recoil too. I was mentioning M14 and Crossbow's reduced recoil and AA12 and Crossbow's pierce ability. What are you trying to achieve?
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Wait I don't know why I havn't said this yet but everybody chiiiiiill.
I would say this is just a game but it's not even that. It's a website containing a forum about a game. Nothing is at stake here; why are people getting mad? In a game at least you can lose. On the forum the worst that can happen is being flamed, and flaming back doesn't improve the experience at all.
I would say this is just a game but it's not even that. It's a website containing a forum about a game. Nothing is at stake here; why are people getting mad? In a game at least you can lose. On the forum the worst that can happen is being flamed, and flaming back doesn't improve the experience at all.
@ | mrsirr It is about a game, on the internet. Everyone flames if the discussion is long enough.
Well yeah but I'd like to try my best to deny my natural instincts and hope that we can be civil.
That actually never happened, I am still shooting Scrakes in the tits to finish them off with a headshot.
Check the rest of the video, it shows the Siren's head hitbox resetting to the center with a successful Siren cancel, and when shot at when nodding. This goes in line with my experience when shooting to the space around her left shoulder. Sometimes it does a headshot, and sometimes it doesn't.
The real problem isn't damage as you described, but the painfully small ammo pool. If you increase the base ammo pool for the grenades to 24 and bullets to 400, then it might be worth picking up. But then again, off-perking an Mk23 with an M79 is more price-efficient. At most, you'd be spending 1750 for both weapon platforms while with the M4-203, you'd be spending almost double.
The thing is I don't, first bolt to the face stuns, second bolt to their neck decaps now; disregarding whatever the animation they're playing when stunned. Only situation where you should aim for chest is, when they're climbing stairs to lead and time the shot. Just tried it on a new testmap with toggled headzones several times.
Siren's head now dynamically follows the animation. I can swear on it. If you're shooting to their left shoulder and score headshot, that's because they're sidestepping to "your" right. If you can't score a headshot, try to watch their step and try the other shoulder.
Most Demolition Experts prefer Mk23 and M79 combo over M4/M203 trash because; MK23 has better damage per shot (82 compared to 35), pierces one target with less ammo pool (144 compared to 300 bullets, it's the half amount), also M79 offers more grenade shots (24 compared to 12 grenade projectiles, doubles grenade count). Although weighting the same 6 blocks, it will cost less compared to M4/M203 even when MK23 bought as offperk (500+375
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Well not natural instincts really. Just what I've come to expect from people.
You do. It is just that i prefer if things are said absolutely clear without any room for interpretations. It is something i developed by living in the country i live.
I said that thing about the AK-47 for everyone to read and then search for themselves. AK-47 type weapons are great, just not the best in the world, but many people are so obsessed with the AK-47 Hype...
A semi-automatic AK-12 12 gauge shotgun sounds cool, but there is the Saiga 12, and the Vepr 12 Molot. Both guns are AK-Type shotguns available in 12 gauge and in other calibers. You guys in America should check these out.
(I wouldn't mind one of them in KF...)
Now, there is the "problem" that ZEDs have a head health, and a body health, so shooting them anywhere in the body is one and the same thing.
But, what about a separate hit-box at the chest? Not the whole chest, just the vital area of heart, lungs and everything in this proximity.
Obviously, damage to lower abdomen or extremities (limbs) should not be as effective as hitting the torso.
Yeah I think people just love to talk about the AK because it makes them feel like they know about guns (even though that's the gun literally everyone knows about.) I would go for an AKS-74M but under the right conditions 5.56 is more potent than 5.45. An AK-101 would be cool.
And yeah, when I read about the AK-12 the Saiga12k was the first thing I thought of.
The chest hitbox would be cool but knowing TWI we'd have gorefasts with chest hitboxes in their feet and crazy weak fleshpounds with the head hitbox and the chest hitbox in the same place so we'd be shooting them in the chest and in the head at the same time
And yeah, when I read about the AK-12 the Saiga12k was the first thing I thought of.
The chest hitbox would be cool but knowing TWI we'd have gorefasts with chest hitboxes in their feet and crazy weak fleshpounds with the head hitbox and the chest hitbox in the same place so we'd be shooting them in the chest and in the head at the same time
True.
Also some (actually lots of) people are obsessed with USSR-Era guns and memorabilia, specially people from NATO Countries.
AK-101 seems good, but some further evaluation would be nice. And i do not mean people who enlisted and this is the only firearm they actually used in their life, as it happens in my country, or in Cyprus, where soldiers are issued AK-74Ms and they get totally biased.
Until then, i would go with an M4 which is a Battle proven weapon.
If i had to choose a "civilian" semi-only gun, i would go with a 7.62 weapon like an M14 or a G3.
(G3 is actually a mule that can take great amounts of abuse and punishment)
Also some (actually lots of) people are obsessed with USSR-Era guns and memorabilia, specially people from NATO Countries.
AK-101 seems good, but some further evaluation would be nice. And i do not mean people who enlisted and this is the only firearm they actually used in their life, as it happens in my country, or in Cyprus, where soldiers are issued AK-74Ms and they get totally biased.
Until then, i would go with an M4 which is a Battle proven weapon.
If i had to choose a "civilian" semi-only gun, i would go with a 7.62 weapon like an M14 or a G3.
(G3 is actually a mule that can take great amounts of abuse and punishment)