If both fixes are ever going to happen I will start nerding KF non-stop again.....
KF M4 Update
- Thread starter Uzurak
- Start date
If both fixes are ever going to happen I will start nerding KF non-stop again.....
Wtf? Grab a MK23 or Handcannon and open fire rapidly on 2 lined targets with 50 meters between'em. Tell me how many bullets you landed on the second target's body, by going nuts. Do you know the dictionary word meaning of pierce or not? I kinda started to doubt it. I didn't boost its damage directly but indirectly, yet you call it overpowered for no reason. If you come here and say, you can land all 12 bullets on the second targets body I call bull****. Even with 75% recoil reduction from Sharp bonus you can't do that while rapidfiring, with Commando's 40% it's impossible. If you crouch and go full auto most of the bullets will go upwards and miss the second target anyway.
Also I'd like to hear how do you calculate an almost infinitely piercing AA12's dps regarding your formula.
I didn't increase the M4's dps but "potential" dps, even if M4 pierces one target you wouldn't use that overpriced crap over FNFAL in game against a Scrake. What do you really think of? Call me when you can kill a Scrake with piercing M4 single handedly then we'll talk about its overpowered state.
I. call. bullsh*t.
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That's why you *don't* fire wildly, especially as a Sharpshooter. I frequently get > 8 Headshots per HC Mag, and it's not that hard, just take the time to aim instead of firing wildly like a bloody gumby and you'll be fine.
And I have finished off Scrakes plenty of times with my M4 in its current state. Just because you're not of a perk that gives massive bonus HS damage, doesn't mean that you shouldn't already be aiming for the head at all times.
PS : I don't think that you'll get any disagreements here of the notion that Support Specialists are overpowered. I don't know why you keep mentioning it in a thread about Commandos and M4s.
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In the hands of a good player, everything is OP.
In the hands of an average player, nothing is OP.
It is like CS, when you have 5 newbies and one pro. The Pro can headshot all five of them with an M4, in seconds, from the other corner of the map, while constantly moving, and shoot them through a wall.
After that, the newbies will go to the forums and complain about how OP the M4 is in CS...
In the hands of an average player, nothing is OP.
It is like CS, when you have 5 newbies and one pro. The Pro can headshot all five of them with an M4, in seconds, from the other corner of the map, while constantly moving, and shoot them through a wall.
After that, the newbies will go to the forums and complain about how OP the M4 is in CS...
Because you calculate a potential damage with 100% effectiveness on the paper like a bloody gumby you are.
Damage is calculated with 100% efficiency and effectiveness. This is the theoretical damage.
Obviously, only a few people can have 1 headshot out of every shot.
If the average player does headshots once every five shots, then we can subtract 80%, and if the average player does a headshot twice every five shots, we will subtract 60%, etc.
Of course, this must be tested in-game by testers.
Now, if you think that everyone is "superman" because you are "superman", this is just silly.
I believe that the vast majority of games are just average persons and even lower than average.
This is why games have different difficulties. Yes, some games are "easy" and the maximum difficulty for some people, and harder difficulties should be added. I agree to that.
Obviously, only a few people can have 1 headshot out of every shot.
If the average player does headshots once every five shots, then we can subtract 80%, and if the average player does a headshot twice every five shots, we will subtract 60%, etc.
Of course, this must be tested in-game by testers.
Now, if you think that everyone is "superman" because you are "superman", this is just silly.
I believe that the vast majority of games are just average persons and even lower than average.
This is why games have different difficulties. Yes, some games are "easy" and the maximum difficulty for some people, and harder difficulties should be added. I agree to that.
Can we just agree that it needs a buff and forget the details? I mean, not much point arguing forever over these differences of opinion if we can't test anything. 'Till someone makes a mutator or something...
Yes. Although this is a forum so I guess if we all just said "Ah yes I agree good sir" Then it would kinda go cold :/
I don't like argueing though.
I just think the reload thing was a good idea. It should be better but it's still a lower end weapon. It doesn't need a tier promotion or anything.
Also what the fufff does that tank mean????
The way i see it, there are two kinds of Commando Weapons.
5.56 weapons and SMGs,
and 7.62x51 "heavy" Weapons.
M4 should be the most efficient of category 1. That does not means stronger.
FAL should be the better of category 2, and there is actually space for more weapons to be added in category 2.
Now arguing, is exchanging opinions. It is better if this is done at a friendly tone with honor and respect, so we can make something good out of the argument.
5.56 weapons and SMGs,
and 7.62x51 "heavy" Weapons.
M4 should be the most efficient of category 1. That does not means stronger.
FAL should be the better of category 2, and there is actually space for more weapons to be added in category 2.
Now arguing, is exchanging opinions. It is better if this is done at a friendly tone with honor and respect, so we can make something good out of the argument.
I tried a loadout which is totally crazy, but sort of works in a way. Claymore Sword with an offperk M4 as a Zerker. I normally would try the Dr T's LDS, but here's the thing, ammo is a big issue. Offperk, the M4 has 400 bullets, which is enough if you focus the M4 on taking out crawlers, sirens, or husks if you have a good clear shot of their heads.
The M4 is actually pretty powerful off-perk if you know how to use it, and ever since this argument in this thread started, I have been taking my M4 out on a ride as a Commando, and have been constantly proving Naksiloth wrong. I still feel that the reload time is a bummer and that recoil could be toned down, but the DPS of the M4 is already arguably higher than the AK, it does not need a buff to damage, be it through penetration or plain damage increase.
Naksiloth : Just because you don't see yourself being able to make 100% use of the penetration, doesn't mean that other more skilled players, such as those who constantly play on HoE and Suicidal won't be able to. I have known players with an uncanny ability to line up shots after shots that would do double decaps at the very least.
The M4 is actually pretty powerful off-perk if you know how to use it, and ever since this argument in this thread started, I have been taking my M4 out on a ride as a Commando, and have been constantly proving Naksiloth wrong. I still feel that the reload time is a bummer and that recoil could be toned down, but the DPS of the M4 is already arguably higher than the AK, it does not need a buff to damage, be it through penetration or plain damage increase.
Naksiloth : Just because you don't see yourself being able to make 100% use of the penetration, doesn't mean that other more skilled players, such as those who constantly play on HoE and Suicidal won't be able to. I have known players with an uncanny ability to line up shots after shots that would do double decaps at the very least.
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'Oh **** he's gonna talk about realism'
Over the past few days I have been doing research.
Sooooo much research. Some of it opened my eyes to some things and some of it confused me greatly.
While I find that I had partially over-estimated 5.45 and partially under-estimated 5.56, I am satisfied with this game.
While my research led me to believe that 5.56 definately does more damage than a 9x19 round, I think of it this way:
The base damage of any weapon is the meta-effectiveness of an amatuer using that weapon. So in the hands of a sharpshooter, the M4 isn't much of anything special. But in the hands of a commando, a person trained in its use, it can be considerably more effective. So for you realism peeps out there, don't think of the commando as getting a damage bonus. Think of that lowly 35 damage as the output of someone who is unfamiliar with the firearm and may even be using it wrong.
Realism rant over :O
Over the past few days I have been doing research.
Sooooo much research. Some of it opened my eyes to some things and some of it confused me greatly.
While I find that I had partially over-estimated 5.45 and partially under-estimated 5.56, I am satisfied with this game.
While my research led me to believe that 5.56 definately does more damage than a 9x19 round, I think of it this way:
The base damage of any weapon is the meta-effectiveness of an amatuer using that weapon. So in the hands of a sharpshooter, the M4 isn't much of anything special. But in the hands of a commando, a person trained in its use, it can be considerably more effective. So for you realism peeps out there, don't think of the commando as getting a damage bonus. Think of that lowly 35 damage as the output of someone who is unfamiliar with the firearm and may even be using it wrong.
Realism rant over :O
It is like saying that you should not worry in real-life about about a common street thug packing a M16 Rifle, because this thug has no education, no military experience and/or no time at the shooting range...
Truth is, that a weapon will perform the same no matter who uses it.
People trained to use a weapon will obviously be able to utilize it better and be more efficient with it, but the weapon is the same, with the same weight, magazine capacity, recoil, accuracy, muzzle velocity and muzzle energy and everything else.
For the U.S people, just go to the shooting range and ask the instructor.
What realistically makes sense, is this:
I) Higher Perks get special ammo.
II) Higher perks modify their ammo as soldier did in WWI.
III) Higher perks get extended capacity magazines or modify them themselves.
IV) Higher perks are issued better gear, weapons, and accessories or modify them themselves.
The only perk i would agree about this idea, is the Berserker.
Truth is, that a weapon will perform the same no matter who uses it.
People trained to use a weapon will obviously be able to utilize it better and be more efficient with it, but the weapon is the same, with the same weight, magazine capacity, recoil, accuracy, muzzle velocity and muzzle energy and everything else.
For the U.S people, just go to the shooting range and ask the instructor.
What realistically makes sense, is this:
I) Higher Perks get special ammo.
II) Higher perks modify their ammo as soldier did in WWI.
III) Higher perks get extended capacity magazines or modify them themselves.
IV) Higher perks are issued better gear, weapons, and accessories or modify them themselves.
The only perk i would agree about this idea, is the Berserker.
Well no because I'm not a horde of mutants. An M92 will put me in the ground and so will an M16.
And weapons that fire the 5.56 round don't perform the same no matter who uses them because the 5.56 round behaves drasticly different depending on the range, the weapon they are fired from, and the area they impact. Plus someone familiar with the system would be able to better withstand recoil because they would have experience with it and know what to expect. I do agree about the mag capacity though. That's what I always figured.
And off-perk doesn't really mean "you should not worry in real-life" because an offperk M4 will kill any Zed as will a rl M4 used by any person kill any other person. But it really is drastically better when used by someone trained with it.
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You are proving me wrong(?), yet you still complain about M4's recoil, also you are telling me that you know great players (which are a handful of people) who's capable of nailing double headshots with EVERY bullet. If you are talking about double headshots, and piercing hits, probably you are talking about elite players who are mastered at Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter have 75% recoil cut when it hits level 3+ when he's standing still, Commandos have 40% recoil cut at max level. Most of the time Commandos are bound to crouch in a corner switching to single shots to drop down recoil to a mere 78-80%. When a flock of Gorefasts run over you from a corner you have nothing to do but switch to full auto since you cannot drop them (I mean gorefasts and bloats) fast enough with precise decapping headshots thanks to M4's weak decapping bonus.
Some facts for you:
*Commando and Sharpshooter are not the same class. They bear different weapons and have different recoil reduce bonuses. Sharpshooter can strafe away and line the shots while commando should crouch and get down to a turtle's pace for getting the same recoil cut bonus. M4 acts like you're double tapping when try to control it, ofcourse you'll waste some ammo here and there while trying to shoot ranged threats at the mid range, trying to drop a decapped zed pillowing the horde at the behind or in zed time trigger. If you try to move and shoot single fire you probably will miss or forced to use full auto which will at least overkill a target hitting the wall behind it.
*To nail headshots much more rapidly and in great succession you need to crouch down, which will greatly reduce your chance to get a double headshot unless you're shooting from upclose their nose.
*With your newly calculated(!) M4 "potential", it's impossible to NOT overkill anything unless you are piercing 2 scrakes at close quarters. Which will end up their enrage and mowing you down. Even with it's theoretical dps it's not more powerful than FNFAL or SCAR, due to its slow reload.
*Not all specimens line up for you unless you lure them to a narrow hallway. When you are trying to shoot them down in a narrow hallway; you probably will get a backspawn or crawlers will be all over your arse. When you try to line'em by strafing you could actually allow them to close the gap between. At Hell on Earth or Suicidial where specimen gain extra movement speed every second is vital and cannot be wasted by strafing away for a good shot wasting your chance while a Husk focuses on you.
*In that case 9mm pistol is pretty powerful if you know how to use it as well. As it shares the same base damage as M4 bullet damage. You simply wasted your money by using it offperk, a lever-action rifle works way better and much more reliable than an off-perk assault rifle trash. Are you really willing to nail a Siren's head with 12 bullets instead of 2 while horde is closing down on you? Are you sure that you tried using an offperk M4 in Hell on Earth difficulty? I would love to see it. Also you're a zerker, which means you can withstand damage and cannot be held down by clots, at the other hand a Demo would really need some help while he's trying to use overpriced M4/M203 trash.
*Not all specimen have the same height. A meatshielded Siren or Husk is the worst thing that can happen to Commando. While for Firebug, Sharpshooter and Support it's nothing but trash.
*Specimens strafe away from your path most of the time, they have a dynamic ability to move away and avoid your shots in the very least. When you try to line them up by strafing it's only a waste of time when they're moving onto your face.
*In the hands of a skilled player everything is overpowered.
*Support Specialist is balanced and versatile while Commando doomed staying at the background with zero mobility. That's not unbalanced but underpowered. You never try to calculate a potential damage of a weapon because it doesn't make the weapon any stronger than any other counterpart. You never see a calculation of potential damage of AA12 or crossbow around since it's called "potential" damage and it's theoretical.
*Every DLC weapon is becoming much more powerful than the current. How did you get the idea of FNFAL being the top score of firepower for Commando, and should stay that way?
M4 greatly suffers from reloading time that's why it cannot surpass the AK's "dps after reload". It's nothing but an upgraded dual 9mm with a higher recoil. I offered adding a pierce ability because it has a high recoil which will greatly reduce the pierce's effectiveness on long range targets, only would allow you to do precise hits from a distance, yet it will be a nice sidegrade.
Shut your theorycrafting throw here a video of yours nailing headshots or double headshots with every bullet, or at least "try" to counter-argument the above. Go ask for a medal to TWI guys for proving me wrong after that.
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I agree about the recoil and accuracy.
But a weapon will perform as it will perform. If we clamp it on a bench and fire it, it will perform better than in the hands of most people. 'This is how factories test and zero their weapons, because human factors are eliminated.
A shot to the chest is a shot to the chest, no matter who fired the bullet.
You cannot make a weapon perform better, neither the weapon makes you perform better.
Just look at untrained rebels and guerrillas from 3rd World countries . Usually they cannot use the weapons effectively, but if a bullet hits the target, it will make as much damage it will do based on its type, distance, etc.
Now in real life, ZEDs like Clots will die from 2-3 rounds on the chest, we have establish that, and an M4 can do that on Normal.
Problem is that i sounds weak, fires two rounds instead of one and has big recoil even when you fire short bursts.
The M4 is the most popular Commando weapon in the 1st World. It does not do as much damage as the AK47-type weapons, it is not as durable and robust as the AK47-type weapons, it is tricky to filed-strip and the process takes more time than the AK47-type weapons, but it has better range and better accuracy.
Also note that the AK-47 is greatly overrated. The Russians have replaced it with the AK-74 and they are now replacing the AK-74s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12
(For my fellow TWI-Forum members from the U.S.A, i should inform you that the Russians have a 5.56 NATO version. Now, where do i sent my immigration request?
)
But that's what I'm saying. It really doesn't apply to all firearms but a shot from an M4 will behave wildy differently depending on where it hits and at what range. A shot to the chest is a shot to the chest, but a long range shot to the chest from an M4 is not the same thing as a short range shot to the chest or a shot to the lower abdomen (of course I'm guessing that whole 'vital organs' thing doesn't apply in KF as many bullets as these critters take. I'm just referring to sheer tissue damage.)
I am sooo ready for rednecks to stop talking about how great the AK-47 is.
EDIT I hadn't heard of the AK-12 but that whole AK-100 series seems really nice.
I KNOW HUH?!?!?Also note that the AK-47 is greatly overrated. The Russians have replaced it with the AK-74 and they are now replacing the AK-74s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12
(For my fellow TWI-Forum members from the U.S.A, i should inform you that the Russians have a 5.56 NATO version. Now, where do i sent my immigration request?
I am sooo ready for rednecks to stop talking about how great the AK-47 is.
EDIT I hadn't heard of the AK-12 but that whole AK-100 series seems really nice.
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