Why? You have a Tommygun.
Off-perk an M14.
Try M4's Single-Fire mode.
Red text mine. Sights and sounds, I am pretty neutral on. I like the bigger magazine and faster reload time idea. Not sure about the weight idea.
KF M4 Update
- Thread starter Uzurak
- Start date
Why? You have a Tommygun.
Off-perk an M14.
Try M4's Single-Fire mode.
Red text mine. Sights and sounds, I am pretty neutral on. I like the bigger magazine and faster reload time idea. Not sure about the weight idea.
My 2 cents. It feels like you're trying to dictate your idea to others and shush me, because mine is different. Yet, you guys failed to explain why Commando shouldn't have piercing ammunition, besides your theories where; all piercing ammunition magnetizes toward the Fleshpound's head or rear magically, experienced Commandos who pierce through a Scrake to kill Siren at the behind without positioning properly and lame clueless xbow Sharpshooters who don't know about the latest patches
No I don't, it's a DLC weapon I don't have to like, nor use Tommygun.
For the record, Tommy and M4 has the same theoretical dps but Tommygun has a slightly faster reload (Tommygun 0.03 sec faster at base) and better damage per shot. That's why I wanted penetrating ammunition, not an obvious advantage; you can kill 2 targets with a single headshot or 3/4 of magazine piercing through. If you upgrade the reload speed or give higher damage to it, it'll be on par with AK and bestow upon the Tommygun, although much better with its scope. That calls for a small price increase too also, in my opinion. As for magazine size 40 sounds reasonable as long as it's not the base magazine size.
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Penetration sounds like a bit much, but on such a weak weapon I don't think it's a bad idea. It would really give people a big reason to take the M4 over other assault rifles and make it stand out more than basically being the Bullpup's older brother. I'm kinda leaning towards it would be ill-fitting, but tbh I'd like to try it out for a while and see how it feels. I'm sort of on the fence about it.
I really like the M4, and I always want to use it more, but it just feels outclassed. It's not a bad weapon, I just feel like the others are more effective and more fun to use. That's the biggest reason I'm for the idea of penetration, giving it something that stands out. But at the same time I worry that it would make it too unique/good and it would start to outclass the Tommy Guns, Mkb and AK too much. I'm struggling to really think of how to make it better without making it too out there. I was thinking of the idea of having like 3-5 mags that had penetration rounds, and you held alt-fire to load them. So you get a limited amount of penetration per round. But that seems sort of goofy, and raises the question of why don't all the assault rifles have that function, and this or that assault rifle should have the penetration mags, not the M4.
As for faster reload and larger mag size, I think the mag size is fine, but a faster reload would be nice. I think it would be good to make it one of the faster reloading weapons for Commando. I also think that would be nice for the M4203, so on Demo you could actually reload it fairly quick. Overall, I like what the M4 tries to go for, lots of ammo, but weaker. The problem is that you can really pick any two assault rifles and never run out of ammo, so you might as well pick some of the stronger ones. And if you're going to pick only one assault rifle to be paired with other offperk weapons, it's usually a better idea to take the FAL or SCAR.
As for the M4203, I don't really know how you can save that weapon. With its low grenade count, BB strength bullets, long reloads and hilarious price it's just ridiculous. At the very least, it should get the Commando damage bonus when you're using it as Commando, because then maybe some people would use it.
I really like the M4, and I always want to use it more, but it just feels outclassed. It's not a bad weapon, I just feel like the others are more effective and more fun to use. That's the biggest reason I'm for the idea of penetration, giving it something that stands out. But at the same time I worry that it would make it too unique/good and it would start to outclass the Tommy Guns, Mkb and AK too much. I'm struggling to really think of how to make it better without making it too out there. I was thinking of the idea of having like 3-5 mags that had penetration rounds, and you held alt-fire to load them. So you get a limited amount of penetration per round. But that seems sort of goofy, and raises the question of why don't all the assault rifles have that function, and this or that assault rifle should have the penetration mags, not the M4.
As for faster reload and larger mag size, I think the mag size is fine, but a faster reload would be nice. I think it would be good to make it one of the faster reloading weapons for Commando. I also think that would be nice for the M4203, so on Demo you could actually reload it fairly quick. Overall, I like what the M4 tries to go for, lots of ammo, but weaker. The problem is that you can really pick any two assault rifles and never run out of ammo, so you might as well pick some of the stronger ones. And if you're going to pick only one assault rifle to be paired with other offperk weapons, it's usually a better idea to take the FAL or SCAR.
As for the M4203, I don't really know how you can save that weapon. With its low grenade count, BB strength bullets, long reloads and hilarious price it's just ridiculous. At the very least, it should get the Commando damage bonus when you're using it as Commando, because then maybe some people would use it.
@Naksiloth : I have spent the last 2 pages explaining why it doesn't work. 20% damage reduction would give the perked M4 a damage total of 93 per bullet, which greatly outclasses the 67 of the AKs and MKb42s, and the 60 of the Tommyguns. There is no reason to give this kind of power to such a cheap rifle, especially when you consider that as far as rifle rounds go, the 5.56 NATO is the bottom of the barrel. To make this work, you'll have to bump the damage of the M4 down to the level of the Bullpup at the very least to compensate.
@ArmoredPuppy : I am playing around with the idea of further narrowing the bullet spread and lowering the recoil of the M4. I think that fast reload, low recoil, accurate fire and a large ammo pool would be more than enough to make up for its low damage. It would be the perfect rifle to introduce newbie Commandos to the perk. The more advanced players, once they learn to handle rifle recoil, will then move on to picking up Tommy Guns, AKs, MKb42s for their low-tier rifle of choice.
@ArmoredPuppy : I am playing around with the idea of further narrowing the bullet spread and lowering the recoil of the M4. I think that fast reload, low recoil, accurate fire and a large ammo pool would be more than enough to make up for its low damage. It would be the perfect rifle to introduce newbie Commandos to the perk. The more advanced players, once they learn to handle rifle recoil, will then move on to picking up Tommy Guns, AKs, MKb42s for their low-tier rifle of choice.
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93 damage per bullet total from the hands of a level 6 commando (which boosts the single bullet damage to 52) ONLY if it pierces a target (second target takes 41 damage) and that will be among 2 targets which means 93/2 = 46.5 average damage PER target.
It won't surpass the 60 damage of Tommygun, neither surpass the 67 of MKb, nor the 65 damage of AK47. Also as a reminder 45 damage is base offperk damage of AK47, so I can go further and say scoped silenced M4 with piercing bullets will be a mere upgrade for AK47. Giving more potential bullet to Commando class won't make it overpowered in any aspect. Although distance between 2 targets comes in the table for piercing targets, if you increase the scoped M4's recoil slightly, give it piercing rounds and reduce the M203 variant recoil by giving it more damage, I think it will be all set.
I was mistaken when I thought you can do the simple math up there, and I was trying to figure out why I have to read such pointless ramblings for 2 pages. You still think it will be overpowered? Do you still think that you can kill 74 specimen with 37 bullets? All have different heights, grouped together, different aggro and movement speed.
If player is bad at shooting he kills the Siren behind a Gorefast with like 17-18 bullets to body, killing both of them; if he's cool he headshots the Gorefast then nails like 8 headshots to Siren with M4 but preferably you use a more powerful weapon while dealing with Siren/Husk like AK, SCAR or FNFAL. If Husk or Siren is behind trash you open fire with M4 soften the Husk and Siren until you run out of magazine then switch to more powerful weapon to compensate for ammunition.
and I offered to increase the price up to 1500
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I dunno I'm thinking definately faster reload.
And penetration maybe???
It seems a bit out of place but it would definately give the M4 something of its own. Plus people are always doing that L2P thing and any big boy commando would be responsible enough to watch what was behind his target. So that is a hardcore maybe.
I'm open to it.
Just feels wierd :/
Like low-sodium V8 juice :I
And penetration maybe???
It seems a bit out of place but it would definately give the M4 something of its own. Plus people are always doing that L2P thing and any big boy commando would be responsible enough to watch what was behind his target. So that is a hardcore maybe.
I'm open to it.
Just feels wierd :/
Like low-sodium V8 juice :I
Penetration might unbalance the game, but increasing the number of ZEDs per wave will counter-balance it, to i see no problem.
More clots will be a nice touch. Imagine a slow moving wave of enemies, moving towards you and getting closer and closer as you reload or when you run out of ammo.
The game is supposed to be Horror anyway, not a grotesque party. And no, enemies hard to kill dot not make the game more horror-like.
As far as balancing, look at STALKER. STALKER was made with realism in mind. Was STALKER a bad game?
I am not suggesting that KF should become a firearms simulator. Think about it like adding a little STALKER to KF, with an amount of actual horror.
I believe that every suggestion about realistic weapon stats and damage will be a nice addition.
I do not how to make a Mutator, so i cannot present any "proof", but i am considering to give it a try. If anyone else wants to help, i will appreciate it.
As for the M4 sounds, they sound weak either in Semi or Fully automatic.
It should be like "Boom, Boom, Boom", not "Pew, Pew, Pew".
More clots will be a nice touch. Imagine a slow moving wave of enemies, moving towards you and getting closer and closer as you reload or when you run out of ammo.
The game is supposed to be Horror anyway, not a grotesque party. And no, enemies hard to kill dot not make the game more horror-like.
As far as balancing, look at STALKER. STALKER was made with realism in mind. Was STALKER a bad game?
I am not suggesting that KF should become a firearms simulator. Think about it like adding a little STALKER to KF, with an amount of actual horror.
I believe that every suggestion about realistic weapon stats and damage will be a nice addition.
I do not how to make a Mutator, so i cannot present any "proof", but i am considering to give it a try. If anyone else wants to help, i will appreciate it.
As for the M4 sounds, they sound weak either in Semi or Fully automatic.
It should be like "Boom, Boom, Boom", not "Pew, Pew, Pew".
You're still talking about being able to hit 74 times per magazine, twice per bullet, and dealing more damage than the FAL and SCAR per magazine. Yeah, we're not doing that.
There are better ways of making the M4 more powerful without having to **** around with its perfectly-set damage value. Lower the recoil, making it easier to use effectively, make it more accurate, same story. Make the reload faster, so it would be a lot more fluid to use. Do these, and you will have a rifle that beginner commandos could sink their teeth into.
We? You and who, may I ask? Secretly contacted TWI guys?
M4 with piercing bullets won't deal as much damage as FNFAL and SCAR per magazine either, as I've been typing countless lines before that. Why are you thinking like it deals all the dps to the single target? Which one would you pick against a Scrake then? Piercing bullet M4 or more reliable and powerful FNFAL? Now tell me again; which one deal more damage to a Scrake? FNFAL or piercing M4? As you've been telling it deals 93 damage per bullet right? Not! It deals 93 damage total among "2 targets".
To deal damage more or close to FNFAL per magazine, you have to line up 2 targets and both of them should be close to each other. When you go full auto on a target, behind target will get less damage because of pierce and recoil won't allow you to be accurate either. When you go for single fire headshots it's up to you to find a large group of same specimen with same height and line the shot.
You bicker because you can deal more damage to trash zeds when they're lined, and closed up together? Because you can kill 2 gorefasts that close to each other with a single bullet headshot? Apparently when they're distant from each other that requires much more precise aiming. A Sharpshooter does that everyday with Handcannon or MK23. You call that overpowered as well? You never answered this one.
You can only deal more damage per mag than a FNFAL only if you go full auto on a large group and take down merely 2-3 of them with half of your magazine. Because of M4's weak damage and weak decapitation damage, you'll have a headless zombie meat shielding each other most of the time. If you want to take down a group quickly you have to rely on weak body shots to take off a large group. It is only effective when they're close to each other because of goddarn recoil of M4. Which makes less of a fuss because M4 have plenty of bullets and it can only hit 2 targets at once; and not even with 100% effectiveness because of recoil. You call killing trash zeds faster way overpowered? What about Firebug or Support then? Whoop dee doo back to square one. I'm seriously tired of this, take your imaginative inane theories elsewhere. I'm off.
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93 x 37 = 651 + 2700 = 3351
97 x 25 = 485 + 1800 = 2285
The first equation deals with M4 total damage per mag if piercing were implemented. The second equation deals with the SCAR and FAL damage per magazine.
You have to remember that on HoE, the Bullpup deals just shy of enough damage to decap most trash Zeds. 80% of 35 damage is still 2 base damage points per bullet higher than the Bullpup which is enough for it to go above the threshold. (28 * 1.5 = 42, then add 10% for HS bonus and the total damage to head is 46, which is 2 points higher than the head health of the Clot on HoE.) In essence, the M4 would become the gun of choice to deal double decaps, and when you can potentially do 37 of those on one magazine. You do the math.
PS : The Handcannon has 96 bullets, 8 to reload, and most of the damage is wasted since every headshot is overkill to trash Zeds. Your argument is invalid.
97 x 25 = 485 + 1800 = 2285
The first equation deals with M4 total damage per mag if piercing were implemented. The second equation deals with the SCAR and FAL damage per magazine.
You have to remember that on HoE, the Bullpup deals just shy of enough damage to decap most trash Zeds. 80% of 35 damage is still 2 base damage points per bullet higher than the Bullpup which is enough for it to go above the threshold. (28 * 1.5 = 42, then add 10% for HS bonus and the total damage to head is 46, which is 2 points higher than the head health of the Clot on HoE.) In essence, the M4 would become the gun of choice to deal double decaps, and when you can potentially do 37 of those on one magazine. You do the math.
PS : The Handcannon has 96 bullets, 8 to reload, and most of the damage is wasted since every headshot is overkill to trash Zeds. Your argument is invalid.
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But realism will be reason for HoE to be more difficult as many players have suggested, and/or for a new difficulty to be added, so at maximum difficulty, we will eventually have a more challenging game.
Personally i never said "make the weapons realistic and leave everything else the same". I said something like "give us realistic weapons and realistic game and more challenging games at more than normal difficulties".
Personally i never said "make the weapons realistic and leave everything else the same". I said something like "give us realistic weapons and realistic game and more challenging games at more than normal difficulties".
First implementation is total damage over AT LEAST 2 targets, you do the math again. M4 is weak for single targets or even against large groups with that recoil and highest rate of fire among assault rifles. And I've been saying most of the bullets will go to waste killing trash zeds anyway. Are you implying that you have perfect accuracy with M4? If it pierces you could be hitting the wall behind them as well. What you don't get is; "pierce" is situational. When you try to pierce through a target by extending your whole magazine most likely you'll miss the bullets beyond fifth one because of recoil and the distance between'em. Single headshot? You need precise aiming while crawlers and stalkers claw at your arse good luck with that. Also to deal full effectiveness of the whole magazine without overkilling anything you have to pierce through 2 close proximity Scrake, lined together.
You're thinking about the theory. I'm telling you about different heights of specimen, different notice timing, distractions, distance between targets, recoil and dynamic environment. What you're telling me is like making all specimen height same and they are lined for you to headshot them. Were you playing clotbuster alot lately? Because of recoil, and high fire rate it's hard to kill trash even with cheap bodyshots. If you are still telling me you can score double headshots, I just pity you. Even with single fire M4 still kicks back alot and the small delay between 2 shots probably second target will change its direction. They strafe away, swipe, crawlers spawn and claw at you from sides; that's the main idea of the game, dynamic hostile environment.
I say with an added silencer to it, they will hardly jump on your muzzle to line them imba-leet-nerf-plox headshots anymore. As I've been saying, they attack on close proximity and noise, dimmed gunfire noise will cause you to make headshots from side more than you think of. Silencer will take the Commando's biggest power of distracting and pulling multiple specimen on self.
Dude, even a 9mm in the hands of a high level Sharpshooter with like 225 bullets can decap zeds better than your M4. How does that feel? They don't run around like a headless chicken like M4 does, they drop dead. Secondly Handcannon is not overkill for a meatshielded Siren or Husk, or very close proximity fast specimen like Stalkers and Crawlers or multiple specimen lined together. At the other hand, MK23 with 12 bullets per mag and 144 total bullet count, can decap specimen easily dealing much more damage and pierces one target. It's so comical that a Sharp with a MK23 and Handcannon almost does the trash clearing good as Commando. My argument is invalid because of overkill damage? Nope. It's still intact.
Because of a non-existent balance issue, you changed the general headshot multiplier of a SMG rifle. Reducing M4's damage will defy its piercing purpose that I decided at the first place; softening the second target.
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You don't play the game much, do you? 500 bullets all with just enough damage to decap trash Zeds vs 96 bullets, all of which deal more than enough damage to decap trash Zeds. It's also pretty easy to line up multiple-headshots, the strafe and crouch buttons are there for that.
Also, it's easy to learn to control the M4 Recoil. You can actually get fairly accurate full auto-spray when you know just how much to compensate.
Also, it's easy to learn to control the M4 Recoil. You can actually get fairly accurate full auto-spray when you know just how much to compensate.
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Yes, it's easy but how many times you get the opportunity of double headshot? You can control the recoil but it still misses when targets are distant. You can ofc get 100% accuracy but you need inhuman reflexes to lead all bullets to the body of the second target.
Do you calculate AA12's dps with piercing as well?
M4 Update
To be honest I'd rather have a more stronger 30 rounds of the M4 and AK47 than current weaker 37 rounds. If it was like that I'm sure more players would use them often.
To be honest I'd rather have a more stronger 30 rounds of the M4 and AK47 than current weaker 37 rounds. If it was like that I'm sure more players would use them often.
The M4 carbine in Killing Floor is weak and sounds weak...making it unbearable to play with at times! and it's my favorite gun too! I do hope the M4 get some kind of update in the future...
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Get a better mouse. > 2000 dpi mice aren't as pricey as they used to be, and it's amazing how much of a difference it makes. I remembered when my Dragonwar Dragunov mouse arrived, my Sharpshooter level shot up from level 2 to 6 in a week.
It is not weak, it just has awful recoil and you can easily miss.
M4 are supposed to be low-recoil and accurate. They KF M4 kicks like a mule.
I also do not understand why high-RPM weapons fire 2 rounds simultaneously, even in ZED time. Maybe they wanted to ad an AN-94 Abakan and the whole thing got bugged?
M4 are supposed to be low-recoil and accurate. They KF M4 kicks like a mule.
I also do not understand why high-RPM weapons fire 2 rounds simultaneously, even in ZED time. Maybe they wanted to ad an AN-94 Abakan and the whole thing got bugged?