KF M4 Update

[|WC|Capt.525]

Oh boy... Archie seems to have covered most of the arguments posted here (although I would suggest toning it down a bit with the new forum rules; we don't want to see anyone get banned over this ); but something did catch my eye in this wall of text.

Nak, you had several hypothetical situations in which the Commando would have to deal with a siren/a group of sirens hidden behind a wall of trash. There should be no reason why the Commando could not deal with both the trash and the siren(s). Let's say it is the typical pub loadout (AK+Scar) on 6 -man HoE. If both weapons were fully loaded, the Commando could quickly dispatch the trash around the sirens with the AK (37 rounds, that's 37 decaps, and ~ 15 kills if you want to finish them off), then switch to the Scar to quickly kill the siren(s). Now when are you going to get over 15 things in front of the Siren(s) if you are a Commando? Not very often. Why? Because you would be steadily killing them. I'm not sure about any of you, but when I play Commando it is not often that I have more than 15 things alive coming at me at once. Either way, a semi competent Commando could deal with the situation easily.

The next scenario was if there was a Siren behind a FP. Now, I'm just going to assume that your team mates are smart enough to fire one to two shots into the FP to get it's attention first to kill it. That leaves it up to you to shoot around the FP and kill the Siren. Sound does not attract the specimens. Shooting them, when they aren't locked onto someone already does. So unless you are hitting the FP, there should be no reason for it to suddenly turn around and go for you.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Commando is NOT underpowered; nor are its weapons. You just have to learn how to play it effectively. Just because you can't solo something, or kill a big thing as fast as something else, doesn't mean that it is underpowered. Yes, Firebug can set the whole group on fire, but you will also set the FP on fire, or catch a Scrake, and suddenly the whole team will be against you. Firebug is good, yes (very good in fact), but Commando is preferred in a lot of situations.

Also, I have yet to ever see a Support do a better job of trash control than a Commando. Sure, they CAN do it, but it is no way any more effective, or useful. And Penetration is a terrible idea for Commando weapons, and for my point I will use your example:

In my example; you pop the clot infront of Scrake with M4 and only deal Scrake 41 damage considering you scored a headshot.

Congratulations, you may have just drawn agro on that Scrake. Now imagine if you have an autobow Sharp on your team. He stuns the Scrake, but waits for the Scrake to come unstunned and charge towards him so he can land the second. Instead, the Scrake turns to you and starts sawing you in half. Because the Scrake is on it's side, the Sharp misses the shot due to derpy hitbox. Here you are wondering wtf is going on, and start spamming at the Scrake, letting the trash get closer. While everyone finishes off the Scrake, the trash has got so close that you get pushed back, and this could either lead to a wipe or a very hard fought for victory. Either way, the fault of that would fall onto the Commando and his penetrating weapon, for drawing the agro on the Scrake (unintentionally).

 

[naksiloth]

Oh boy... Archie seems to have covered most of the arguments posted here (although I would suggest toning it down a bit with the new forum rules; we don't want to see anyone get banned over this ); but something did catch my eye in this wall of text.

Nope. He didn't.

Nak, you had several hypothetical situations in which the Commando would have to deal with a siren/a group of sirens hidden behind a wall of trash. There should be no reason why the Commando could not deal with both the trash and the siren(s). Let's say it is the typical pub loadout (AK+Scar) on 6 -man HoE. If both weapons were fully loaded, the Commando could quickly dispatch the trash around the sirens with the AK (37 rounds, that's 37 decaps, and ~ 15 kills if you want to finish them off), then switch to the Scar to quickly kill the siren(s). Now when are you going to get over 15 things in front of the Siren(s) if you are a Commando? Not very often. Why? Because you would be steadily killing them. I'm not sure about any of you, but when I play Commando it is not often that I have more than 15 things alive coming at me at once. Either way, a semi competent Commando could deal with the situation easily.

15 trash, yes. When you have 3 Sirens walking in the room you better run off and keep distance thou. Actually the main deal here is a large crowd pillowed by one large target followed by multiple mid threats. When trash is pillowed by one biggie you have to position at the rear and take'em down. Preferably with a non-piercing weapon because you guys think nobody can aim for crap with anything and focus on trash specimen. It's like all piercing bullets have some kind of magnet and magnetizing toward the FP's head.

If you don't like the piercing assault rifle idea, or you can't aim with piercing assault rifles (which I am in doubt as well) you simply switch to a non piercing assault rifle. Because they're dirt cheap and by the wave 7 you have to have a second assault rifle because your class made of boolets.

The next scenario was if there was a Siren behind a FP. Now, I'm just going to assume that your team mates are smart enough to fire one to two shots into the FP to get it's attention first to kill it. That leaves it up to you to shoot around the FP and kill the Siren. Sound does not attract the specimens. Shooting them, when they aren't locked onto someone already does. So unless you are hitting the FP, there should be no reason for it to suddenly turn around and go for you.

It does, if you go trigger happy behind him; all specimen attacks on proximity and noise. If there's no Support or Demo to keep him busy he'll most likely turn its wrath to you. My advice would be staying away from him, if Sharp gonna engage him, because if Sharp fails to finish him at enrage animation it'll go hard on you next. I witnessed that several times.

Only thing you do at the late waves are staying in the middle of the team, crouching and going down on iron sights to headshot trash. I really want that to change and gain some mobility with Commando. What you call overpowered is a birthright to Sharps, Supports and Firebug. They can go mobile abit because of their effective trash killing, Commando will be killed as he sticks his Assault Rifle out of the hole up point. I find this kind of gameplay pretty much boring; asking for a new thing, is that bad? Do you really think Commando can go out and kill 74 specimen with 37 bullets? No recoil? No miss? Who can done that in a real game of Hell on Earth?

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Commando is NOT underpowered; nor are its weapons. You just have to learn how to play it effectively. Just because you can't solo something, or kill a big thing as fast as something else, doesn't mean that it is underpowered. Yes, Firebug can set the whole group on fire, but you will also set the FP on fire, or catch a Scrake, and suddenly the whole team will be against you. Firebug is good, yes (very good in fact), but Commando is preferred in a lot of situations.

A rapidfiring beretta is weak, it should be a complete upgrade because beretta is a damn pistol while M4 is a goddarn assault rifle. Still I'd be stubborn about that special tracer round idea at the LMG thread thou.

As a firebug player, a lit Scrake is hardly a problem for a good team because, he can go down stunned in the hands of a knowing Sharp or Berserker; assuming Sharp knows how to headshot him with Crossbow and Berserker know how to backwhack. Unfortunately same thing don't really go with lit Fleshpound as they ignore afterburn damage when enraged and impossible to stun; only answer to a lit FP, would be Demolition with an M32 or a Support with Hunting/AA12. Nothing really changes because everybody knows that Sharp and Firebug at the same line won't go well, at all. Addition to that taking down a couple of Sirens behind FP would much more valuable for team even if it's for litting the FP on fire.

Also, I have yet to ever see a Support do a better job of trash control than a Commando. Sure, they CAN do it, but it is no way any more effective, or useful. And Penetration is a terrible idea for Commando weapons, and for my point I will use your example:

Congratulations, you may have just drawn agro on that Scrake. Now imagine if you have an autobow Sharp on your team. He stuns the Scrake, but waits for the Scrake to come unstunned and charge towards him so he can land the second. Instead, the Scrake turns to you and starts sawing you in half. Because the Scrake is on it's side, the Sharp misses the shot due to derpy hitbox. Here you are wondering wtf is going on, and start spamming at the Scrake, letting the trash get closer. While everyone finishes off the Scrake, the trash has got so close that you get pushed back, and this could either lead to a wipe or a very hard fought for victory. Either way, the fault of that would fall onto the Commando and his penetrating weapon, for drawing the agro on the Scrake (unintentionally).

An autobow sharp can decap a scrake with 2 consecutive headshots they don't wait for it to snap out of stun to land a second hit. If sharp fails on its own it's Sharp's fault, if something scratched the arse of Sharp while he's trying to pull the second shot, it's Commando's fault. Scrake headhitbox is not wonky on stunned states anymore, it's fixed in the latest patches. If you don't want to bug other big specimen around you switch to another assault rifle to go full auto; which is not M4, like AK47, SCAR or FNFAL.

Were you ppl living under a rock? My last post here. Toodle-o.

 

[nd2spd]

That's what my point is, Commando simply falls behind when its job is clearing trash. Support is not overpowered, Commando is underpowered at most aspects.

But Commando has the magazine size advantage. In my mind, you could clear about the same amount of trash with either 1 mag of AK or standard shotgun. To me they're balanced in that respect.

Off-topic, what would you call the magazine for a shotgun like that? I'm not a firearm nerd.

If you can't see the FP and Scrake, between the crowd and still damage them you are doing something really wrong. In my example; you pop the clot infront of Scrake with M4 and only deal Scrake 41 damage considering you scored a headshot.

Now, I'm just going to assume that your team mates are smart enough to fire one to two shots into the FP to get it's attention first to kill it.

Combine these two points. Team-members are trying to get big guy aggro, and you're competing for it by giving it some damage through the trash with your new Commando penetration and the next thing you know there is a raged FP because you went over the damage-over-time threshold.
That's what I meant when I said harder not to accidentally rage things, especially when you want to go full auto on some specimens.
Or a zerk could be trying to kite something and you're focusing on trash... basically the penetration might turn the Commando into the inconvenience and risk that FB and Demo have for trash-killing.

I agree with what you said Capt.525.

 

[ArcheKruz]

I have read the rules, but Naksiloth is making it very difficult to maintain a civil tone in this discussion. All I can say at this point would be for him to put in some more hours into Commando. It's always the case when people complain about the Commando being under-powered that they don't play as the Commando enough, and/or don't understand the class very well.

I was actually on his side of the discussion back when I was new to the game, but experience changed that.

One final note : 20+16 damage = 36 damage per bullet total, which is on par with the M4. However, the P90 has the advantage of 50 bullets for the base magazine size, and 5 blocks of encumbrance which makes it advantageous to have over the M4. The base damage has to be lower than the L22A1 though, because while the 5.7mm round is excellent for penetration, it is actually worse than the 5.56 mm NATO round in terms of dealing damage. Except, when dealing critical headshots. I guess you could add a slight 30% buff to headshot damage on the P90 to make headshots as devastating as if they were performed by the L22A1.

Penetration is one of the many reasons why the Support Specialists could be considered OP in the right hands. It's what allows them to uppercut Scrakes with one single boomstick blast. You have to be really careful when introducing penetration to the arsenal of a class that is the most perfectly-balanced of the lot, because that could have big consequences for the balance and gameplay.

 

[mrsirr]

My head almost exploded when you were talking about the 5.7. I was convinced everyone but me hated realism. I believe that over penetration is also the reason for the 4.6 being crazy wimpy. I feel the 5.7 should do more damage than the 4.6 since I read that the 5.7 tumbles tip over base in thick tissue but a leveled commando will be doing more than 25 damage so I won't really delve into that. As a great man once said, "Good enough."
And to answer nd2spd's question, that would be called an integral magazine, or sometimes more specifically, an under-barrel tube magazine.
I also agree with the faster reload. It's simple and doesn't upset the delicate balance of the game or our beloved forum-goers.

 

[Spartan1388]

Plus if 1 block is a Kg then why don't they just call them Kg?

Because the Metric System of Units is not standard around the world, so instead of having to familiarize all these people with the metric system, you just call it "Block System" and everyone gets it.

In real life now, i do not think that something like Crossbow will be that hard to carry. I have seen pictures of Turkish Commandos parading with Crossbows and i deem it reasonable that if they go into battle, they will be issued an Rifle/Carbine/SMG along with the Crossbow.

Snipers carrying heavy .50 BMG Barrett Sniper Rifles would also need a Secondary gun.

Soldiers in real life also carry backpacks and stuff like Military Spades, First Aid kits, etc. The average load is about 30Kgs of gear, which is about the same as a Full Plate Medieval Armour.

So in my opinion, 15Kgs covers the bulkiness part and also your skin's gear, ammo pool, etc.

 

[mrsirr]

I have seen pictures of Turkish Commandos parading with Crossbows and i deem it reasonable that if they go into battle, they will be issued an Rifle/Carbine/SMG along with the Crossbow.

That is the coolest thing I've ever heard.

Although I didn't really think that snipers took AMRs into deep missions since those are for a focused purpose and plus they truly are huge.

So in my opinion, 15Kgs covers the bulkiness part and also your skin's gear, ammo pool, etc.

Hmmmm you've actually convinced me. I can see I've met a fellow fan of hardcore realism. The only problem is that unfortunately balance must come first. I mean, if we were going to be totally realistic, the crossbow would be 5 or so blocks and do 40 damage.
That would be terrible. While this game is down to earth, it's no Arma. It is what it is, and sometimes, in a game like this, the devs see fit to change reality up a little bit for some laid back fun.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

For all of those talking about Realism, may I advise you to try RO2? Or RO:OST? I can understand that you want a level of realism in this game, but realism and a game like this doesn't really mix, especially when you have damage multipliers depending on your perk, penetration where there really shouldn't be penetration, and magical healing juice that never runs out. KF just isn't that type of game.

 

[mrsirr]

I understand it's not realistic. It doesn't have to be perfect. I would expect such basic realism from CoD if it weren't just notorious for screwing up guns. But why throw away realism if you don't have to? It's not star wars. The guns don't shoot purple lasers at people. They can retain a basic down-to-earthness. Especially if there's no harm to gameplay.
And with most of those things you can suspend your disbelief anyway. I'm not complaining about those things. I'm not even sue what people are argueing with the realism people about. I personaly am not saying KF needs to be more realistic. This originated from people saying it was unrealistic that the M4 did so little damage. It wasn't even me. I just mentioned that it's not really unrealistic for it to do little damage. People just have this automatic negative reaction whenever someone acknowledges the laws of physics.

 

[ArcheKruz]

It should also be said that Tripwire probably added the M4 and the M203 variant as a joke about "Overpriced yankee bollocks."

 

[Spartan1388]

That is the coolest thing I've ever heard.

Although i doubt the usefulness of issuing crossbows, here is a picture i found from Google:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4013473.stm

Although I didn't really think that snipers took AMRs into deep missions since those are for a focused purpose and plus they truly are huge.

As far as i know they will take with them whatever they need. Some armies are also more "Rambo" about what weapons they issue. See Greece for example, Special Forces snipers are issued .50 BMG Barrett rifles.

Hmmmm you've actually convinced me. I can see I've met a fellow fan of hardcore realism. The only problem is that unfortunately balance must come first. I mean, if we were going to be totally realistic, the crossbow would be 5 or so blocks and do 40 damage.
That would be terrible. While this game is down to earth, it's no Arma. It is what it is, and sometimes, in a game like this, the devs see fit to change reality up a little bit for some laid back fun.

ARMA sucks in my opinion...

You are correct about the Crossbow weight, and yes a standard bolt should do this amount of damage, but the KF Crossbow might use explosive bolts, or poisoned bolts, or Big Game Hunting bolts, like this one:

Spoiler!

Note that this is just the head that you fit on the standard bolt. At short range, this bolt will be deadly. You can hunt Big Game with it, so it can easily damage a Scrake and it is also made out of steel, not brass and lead like the standard bullets.

Because of the Prices the Trader sales the KF Bolts, it is reasonable to assume that they are like the above and also have an explosive/poisonous charge.


Personally i would like the crossbow to get lighter, cheaper and with more ammo, in favor of other sharpshooter weapons. The crossbow will still be useful and with the larger ammo pool it will be something nice to use against Sirens, Husks and even Scrakes.

In case you are wondering, i would like a Muzzle-loader Elephant Gun Single Shot Musket with long reload time (musket reloading process) and huge damage, Lee Enfield S.M.L.E with iron sights and there are many other cool weapons that can be added for the sharpshooters.

 

[mrsirr]

See I can agree with people <
But yeah over the past few days I've learned to suspend my disbelief; like the crossbow bolt thing, and they are pretty nasty looking, basicly like the picture you showed really. But I've come to think of it this way:
TW set the stats the way they are, not thinking we would analyse the specific statistics and critique them, but to deliver a desired perfomance. So all those statistic are just behind the scenes anyway. Now I still wouldn't expect something like an AS VAL doing less damage than the M4, but little things like the difference in damage between the Bullpup and M4 can be overlooked.
PS: I mentioned the AMR because I'm pretty sure those are for bad A things like shooting the engine block out of a car. So I figured they would only take one of those when they specifically needed to do that.

 

[Spartan1388]

M99 .50 Cal bullets cost 250GBP each. For this price, i guess you are using .50 cal Raufoss Mk 211 rounds, but even those cost way less than 250 a piece (25-30$ real life price), even with the Post-Apocalypse economy/Black market thing.

Now, Raufoss Mk 211 is what can kill a Series T-888 Terminator with a single headshot, so you see that the M99 is actually underpowered, and basically you use standard .50 BMG rounds but you Pay 1250-2500% for each one (1-2$ real life price).


TWI develops games. It is up to the fans to suggest what they believe will make the games better.

Personally i want to think of KF as a Horror Survival FPS with RPG elements, gore, guts and realistic weapon models and stats. That means less "childish", more "hardcore".
Minors are not a "target group" for sales anyway, and we should actually consider Realist as a selling point.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R had a truckload of weapons and it did well and there are also mods that add truckloads of weapons, including 2 truckloads of AK variants of all types, and the game is more enjoyable with more guns.

I am not suggesting the above for KF, but weapons should be realistic in terms of stats, model and texture and weapons you can find in U.K should be added, and also some "Black/Market" weapons can be added as well. Black-marketeers would use the "Apocalypse" to make profit or even help people survive.

 

[mrsirr]

Oh hell yeah. I just got Misery 2.0 for Stalker COP. Stalker is the best thing ever.
But yeah I guess KF is a different type of game.
Also I could swear I see a silver tip on those rounds he puts in the M99 so if its firing API it should be tearing everything ever a new Bhole.

 

[Spartan1388]

Before we start having hear attacks, i must make clear that i believe that it would be nice if the KF weapons where more like STALKER, in terms of accuracy, weight and stats, but i am not suggesting to have truckload of weapons,

We need realistic weapons, that can be found in the U.K and are essential for the game (or they just look good!).

If KF was taking place in the U.S.A, i wouldn't mind truckloads of guns. Every class can have its own scroll list anyway.


STALKER is a great game even with lots of "similar" weapons. Plus, it allows a little customization.
I consider STALKER to be "Hardcore". I mean, it is a serious game and mods like Oblivion Lost for SHOC can awake your survival instinct. I want KF to be more like that and less like, let's say, Serious Sam.
(Not that Serious Sam is not a nice game.)

 

[naksiloth]

It should also be said that Tripwire probably added the M4 and the M203 variant as a joke about "Overpriced yankee bollocks."

Well said.

But still, to all of you; to record, Commando cannot enrage any big target with piercing rifle single shots unless he really wants to piss it off, or don't cut eyesight for straight 10 seconds. All major FP killers always enrage FP before termination and Scrake have to be handled with care, anyway. Your single bullet damage that touches the FP or Scrake is insignificant unless you go full auto on their head or you really want to f*ck with zerk who is kiting him (don't give me a theory where you shoot the trash infront of FP here, zerks always keep a clear sight while dealing with FP).

I'm in for a major buff to M4 and bullpup. My vote goes for a faster reloading Bullpup, and piercing Silenced-M4 Carbine rounds. If you can't aim with a piercing assault rifle you simply switch to a more powerful assault rifle without penetration, because you all know M4 has a weak base damage. So it will be something different than a rapid firing 9mm pistol or offers something different than Tommy Gun's dps. On the other hand Bullpup's bullet damage is petty and bullets are plenty, I think it should get close to the Tommy Gun at dps after reload; by practical means. Also I'm in for more damaging tracer rounds at the end of the magazine of Assault (37 bullets max, last 7 bullets that extended with Commando perk usage) and Battle Rifles (25 bullets max, last 5 bullets that extended with Commando perk usage); SMG types-a-like Bullpup, Thompson and Dr T. are excluded from extra tracer rounds at the extended magazine bonus.

Didn't want to interefere at first but you guys started talking, M99 AMR and crossbows in a thread dedicated to M4. Shame on you.

 

[mrsirr]

Didn't want to interefere at first but you guys started talking, M99 AMR and crossbows in a thread dedicated to M4. Shame on you.

We got distracted

 

[ArcheKruz]

@naksiloth : I am pretty sure that the "M4 needs a damage buff/piercing" argument had been thoroughly put out of its misery and buried 6 feet under where it belongs. I am pretty sure I speak for most of us here when I say that the way to improve the M4 is to speed up its reload and maybe give it more bullets to fire.

 

[Spartan1388]

Look, 35 damage is about right. I would like something like 40 for 5.56 weapons and 80 for 7.62 weapons, but plus or minus 5 is acceptable.

The M4 now, feels weak. It sound like a peashooter.
Before you start screaming about me having bad speakers, i should tell you that i have 5.1 surround Logitech Z5400 speakers and on-board sound card from my ASRock Z87 Extreme 6 Motherboard.

About reload times, as far as i know, TWI is based on the U.S.A (God bless the U.S.A (and all the other countries of course) so they can go to a range, find an average shooter and count how long it takes for an average shooter to reload). Game's characters are not only military and police, but also "common" people, so using average time makes sense.


A truly awesome M4 in KF should have:

EOTech Holosight
40 round Magpull magazine
Realistic reload time and weight
BETTER SOUNDS !!!


This, with a EOTech sight:
Colt M4 Carbine - YouTube

 

[mrsirr]

Mmmmm I watched that one yesterday