M14 EBR: Balance

[outofrealman]

Oh... really? Can people really try before they challenge people?

LAR is also very possible to kill a pound, but it rage him in the first shot, and have much larger recoil than M14. Meanwhile, M14 rage fp in the second shot, have faster fire rate, meaning while he is raging, you can get much more "free head shots" (also thank to less recoil). And you have 20 shots in one clip, even you miss some of the shots, you still kill that pound without him pounding your face.

Why the other teamates shoot at the pound? Unless they dont know demo and M14 sharpshotoer can drop that big guy with ease. If so, they are palying it wrong. What they should do is keep EVERY SINGLE one of trash zed away from the demo / M14 sharpshooter, and then cover them while they need to reload.

(and demo should not be in the front line anyway, why people keep saying he need to realod and open to swarm of zeds?)

Also someoue point out that xbow no longer is a T3 weapon. It is ONLY really good at sniping sirens and husks (and you dont even need to be a ss to do it). So WHY it cost that much, AGAIN? With this damage, you should not use that much money tobuy one. With this cost, you should not get this ****ty damage. Talk about balance...

At last, I must point this out again. You need 10 shots of M14 or 4 shots of xbow to kill and fp. But after 9 hsots of M14 or 3shots of xbow, the fp still have around 50% health. This can also be achieved by 3 shots of GL from demo or support who spam shots at the pound. You think you are help with the team, but sadly you are not. You better keep that crawler from the zerker or drop that husk from behind instead of doing ****ty damage to the pound with your xbow.

If your team really able to reduce head shot count needed to down a fp to 3 xbow shots, they already hurt that fp badly. They could have finish off him without problem. (and really? how many maps you can place 3 head shots on a fp before he pound something with an xbow?)

As a result, the best bet of the team is to rely on teamates who are able to drop the bigs, and keep everything away from him when the bigs appears. Not mindlessly shoot at everything in sight together. Pick your targets man...

Now the balance only appear among each perks, not within some of the perks.

 

[Aze]

@Aze
You are correct, but the M32 is supposed to be a higher tier of weapon. In addition a fully loaded crossbow comes with 36 arrows (which can be picked up, situationally) and the M32 comes with 32 grenades. The M32 is clearly a better weapon, but not stupidly so. And that's still after substantial nerfing.

Hmm didn't think about the tier differences (Xbow is a t2 and M32 is a t3). Then it makes more sense that the M32 is better. The possibly unlimited arrows (repick up) is actually a legit reason why they cost more too!
Oh, and the M32 has equal ammo to Xbow, both have 36
Just fyi ^^

Nonetheless, i still think Xbow bolts should cost 10

 

[Salad Snake]

I dunno about you, but the fact that the EBR fires faster seems to be redundant when the slow-shooting weapon which costs 1/4 as much STILL kills faster.

4 Shots is NO WHERE near effective. Without any help, M14 beat xbow big time. Add in team work, will xbow do better suddenly? No. It still sucks. 5 GL shots from demo, fp is GONE. Why do you want to use xbow for fp? If you're doing it, you are doing it wrong. Sad but true. All you do is raging the pound without doing good enough damage to it like demo or support.

And with M14, you really can gun down fp fast even without help. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. With a much much much lower max ammo, higher weight, more sellling price and much much much higher ammo cost, you do worse than M14. You are just ignoring the fact if you still throw out those "abc is still a beast" ****.

When people are both arguing that Xbow AND M14 are both overpowered, fine, and underpowered at once, that begins to smell like balance.

Xbow is fine because headshot dmg translates to body damage, so a SS is very useful against the FP because he drastically reduces the amount of time the FP needs to focus-fire. EBR is a tad UP imo, but a little better damage will be more then fine.

Sharpshooter seems balanced compared to the other perks. Maybe M32 is a bit too effective against the FP now by what outofrealman says though.

 

[outofrealman]

When people are both arguing that Xbow AND M14 are both overpowered, fine, and underpowered at once, that begins to smell like balance.

Xbow is fine because headshot dmg translates to body damage, so a SS is very useful against the FP because he drastically reduces the amount of time the FP needs to focus-fire. EBR is a tad UP imo, but a little better damage will be more then fine.

Sharpshooter seems balanced compared to the other perks. Maybe M32 is a bit too effective against the FP now by what outofrealman says though.

Why people here will consider M14 UP rather than xbow being UP!? WHY? really? 4 shots from xbow, everyone have no problem. M14with 10 shots and people think that's UP??????? What? You can get 10 shots even you encounter an fp in the next corner. May be just tank one hit while he is still calm. And then he's gone.

And I believe more than 80% of the official maps dont even let you have a chance to place 3 head shots with the xbow. Maps like wyre or manor, how you can hit his head from distance when he is charging? He is running up and down those hills man!! If your team choose to defend in doors, you just dont have the distance to place that third shot. Not to mention the forth. YES, I KNOW. After 3 hs from xbow that fp's HEAD (head!) will be at really low health. A few 9mm shot can DECAP him. Next thing you know there is an raging fp without a head running at you. And how many maps have places that only have one entrance? It is no way all 6 players can focus fire on just one pound or you will get swarmed by a bunch of trash zeds.

Even you shoot the fp in the head a few times before you use xbow on him, the third shot still, ONLY decap him. Again, why the hell you would like to chooose xbow on pounds? For new players or players without weapon preference, they will only use weapons that are most effective. So berserkers will use katana instead of machete. So now, WHY should I use xbow? M14 or M32 due with pounds once and for all and EASIER. Thats the only problem, as always.

If you use xbow for bigs, you are only hurting the single one zed because they are taller, and you must aim for the head for damage. Compare with hunting shotgun, you do spike damage and also kill those smalls behind them. Again, xbow lose. How much does hunting shotgun cost again?

Stop consider things at one angle only please? What the problem is it cost too much for this damge. Of cos its fine if you ignore everything else and only consider its usage. But add in weight? Max ammo count? Ammo cost? The cost itself? It become underpowered. You can always try the hard way if you want, like some people try to use knife and 9mm to see how long they can survive. But when there's a better choice and just because you chose not to use it dont mean the problem is not there.

 

[Aze]

Sharpshooter seems balanced compared to the other perks. Maybe M32 is a bit too effective against the FP now by what outofrealman says though.

Sharpshooter is close to perfect yes. And the M32 is just fine as well. Like said elsewhere, it's quite good against FP's, which is fine (it still requires FIVE good shots to take one down though). That's no problem.
But remember, it sucks against Scrakes, can be detonated by Sirens midair, it sucks up close and produces smoke. The M32 is just fine! In general, i think the Demo is just fine, if not a tad underpowered. (The most expensive to level by FAR! And pipebombs? Wow, they got nerfed way too much in cost.)

In the comparison M32 vs Xbow, it's not the M32 that is overpowered. It's the Xbow being SLIGHTLY too weak, but im gonna say it's ok for now.

 

[EricFong]

What if two Flashpound spawn at once? That would be great problem.

 

[outofrealman]

What if two Flashpound spawn at once? That would be great problem.

Thanks for reminding all of us!!! And that's why we need someone to be really effective against fleshpounds. That's why we should not nerf everything to the ground just to make no one is possible to solo a fleshpound. because no matter how well you can solo a fleshpound with your perk, there is a possibility of two spawning together.

Besides, there's a reason why sane people dislike the katana very much before the ptach, because it kills the purpose of axe and machete. They have no reason to exist because katana fire faster, same weight as machete, stun lock scrakes, and very easy to affort. Now all melee weapons have their own purpose, beta tester and TWI did very well in this. So just dont make the xbow another axe or machete.

 

[Eureka]

Here I am going to discuss in terms of balance, why the M14 is underpowered, using pure statistics.

There is a lot more to the game than math. Practically speaking, I've seen Sharpshooters function quite effectively as part of a team using the M14. I've only used it in a couple of games myself but I didn't feel like it was lacking in power when it matters.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

Oh yeah because there wouldn't be ANY problems there whatsoever right?

correct. there wouldn't be one problem whatsoever. i've posted the weapon stats plenty of times to mathematically prove this.

If that's ALL that was needed then Commando's would have been able to carry 2 perked Tier 3 weapons. Absolutely ridiculous.

ridiculous is you still childishly attacking me with your sig and not getting an infraction for it

anyway, would you like to reflect upon what i said? i clearly stated the EBR would be an alternative to the SCAR, thus by using the word "alternative" the indication would by that you'd be using one or the other but not both (i've also made this perfectly clear in other threads before so don't act like this is over your head). i've never suggested that a commando could carry two tier3 weapons. please, provide a quote where i have or don't put false words in my mouth. commandos could carry a tier3 and either a tier1 or tier2 perked weapon, just like they already can. bullpup = tier1, ak = tier2, SCAR/EBR = tier3.

plus, how can you challenge my suggestion when the evidence i've provided numerous times statistically supports my conclusions? therefore all you have is theories that my suggestion would not work.

 

[YoYoBatty]

You can't win in one of bswearer's arguements, he will always win no execption.

 

[SMIFF]

i clearly stated the EBR would be an alternative to the SCAR, thus by using the word "alternative" the indication would by that you'd be using one or the other but not both

You didn't clearly state that at all, here is what you said.

all that was needed for this weapon was to put it into the hands of the perk (commando) that was designed for controlled spamming.

You failed to mention a weight increase or anything that would prevent carrying both weapons.

with the headshot bonus removed, it's essentially an equivalent alternative to the SCAR.

But it isn't, is it? Because you can still carry the 2 weapons together perked, headshot bonus or no headshot bonus. You didn't address the weight issue at all.

Oh and don't tell me about how you have posted in other threads about this. Do you really expect me to have read and memorised each and every post of yours on this subject?

All you said was to move the M14 to Commando and remove headshot bonus, that was it. How that would make the M14 an either/or weapon is beyond me unless you changed the weight. Specify exactly next time.

However, if the M14 was truly an alternative. It could work, I guess.

But it just isn't necessary and isn't fair to screw the SS out of a Tier 3 weapon and give it to another perk that already has a Tier 3 weapon.

M14 is balanced now. People will get over it.

 

[timur]

You can't win in one of bswearer's arguements, he will always win no execption.

I almost always end up on the other side of either he or nutters arguments, but when the debate is over, I respect them all the more.

Having to read the massive, 2-page posts is a bit of a pain though.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

I want to remind you that I am arguing that the M14 is not cost effective when compared to the Lever-Action. That means, for every dollar you spend, you are not dealing as much relative damage. For the immense price you pay, the weapon is vastly under-performing.

Let's not forget that at earlier levels, the M14 costs in the 1500-2000 range, and has an immense amount of recoil to pair with it's poor damage (headshot damage mod is low at lower levels, thus you're left with extremely low body damage and low head damage, high recoil, low rate of fire, and extreme cost.)

Personally I think the damage to the body should go up, and the Weapon Headshot modifier should go down to compensate. This way, what we can get at the end of those changes is, unchanged Headshot damage (as many of you consider it balanced) while still maintaining some body damage. Currently a Level 6 SCAR does 25% more body damage, and since it fires every 0.096 seconds, you can really lay waste to a mob, while if you hit a low-level Specimen in the head and it merely stuns them with the M14, it's gonna be a long while before you kill them since your damage is really....really low and your rate of fire is also heavily lacking.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

M14 is balanced now. People will get over it.

no, it isn't. also, it's funny how you demand people to support their arguments yet you never provide any support for the ones you make. you just make opinionated comments like the one quoted above.

as for my arguments, i've made them perfectly clear in previous threads scattered throughout these forums. you're just poking at my previous 2 sentence GENERAL summary of my suggestion in attempts to make me look like i don't know what i'm talking about. stop acting like you're completely oblivious to the fact that you've not only seen but also participated in multiple threads where i've expanded upon my suggestion in great detail, which includes making the statement that a level6 commando should not be able to carry both the SCAR and the EBR but one or the other in addition to the bullpup or ak....seriously, you're just being an *** and it's pretty obvious.

You can't win in one of bswearer's arguements, he will always win no execption.

it's like the Civil Rights board game from Family Guy....."You never win you just do a little better every time."

jk of course i'm not always right and have accepted defeat on numerous occasions....but in many cases, i am right and i'm not going to let somebody challenge my valid conclusions with idiocy.

Having to read the massive, 2-page posts is a bit of a pain though.

as always, sorry my posts tend to be long.....it sometimes takes a while to fully analyze and refute arguments, especially ones that are very complex. i mean look at what SMIFF is now doing....he's taking advantage of one of the few times i decided to make a short, quick and general statement and just assumed that people knew the full, detailed background behind the comment. i could have reposted up the entire detailed suggestion with all the statistical evidence and logical reasoning that i and others have provided in the past to support my 2 sentence comment, but that would have created a much longer post, thus requiring people to read more and get mad at me writing a "wall of text".

edit: btw, SMIFF just in case you attempt to quote me and again try to pull this claim

Oh and don't tell me about how you have posted in other threads about this. Do you really expect me to have read and memorised each and every post of yours on this subject?

here's a couple of those threads, most of which you participated in with posts and commentary:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=47097
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=45299
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=45062
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=44804
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=44379

 

[9_6]

I said that this thing is unfixable due to its playstyle that doesn't suit the SS whatsoever before and nothing changed about that.
The m14 has always been a mess but now at least someone using it isn't as aggravating as it used to be 2 patches ago.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

9_6 i can agree with you that it's not as aggravating now (the changes were a good band-aid for now) , and i can also agree with you that it is not fixable, at least from the stance of considering it as a SS's weapon........but that doesn't mean it is completely unfixable. that's why i've made the suggestion i have, because that is the only way to really "fix" the weapon. it just frustrates me to know that this suggestion was never even tested to see if it would work (which, going by the numbers, i'm convinced it would) and that time was wasted during the beta to implement the current changes all despite the fact that they would not fix the weapon.

 

[Carl Gustav]

I only use the m14 against fleshpounds, it is better than lar.
Otherwisa lar is better vs. all except fp's

 

[Rainydaykid]

I would use it if the sights weren't total garbage. If It actually looked like a real rifle sight, or put a red dot or something on it.

 

[Undedd Jester]

I think your all forgetting 4 important factors for LAR vs. M14. Namely the weapons cycle time, clip/mag size, overall ammunition and reload.

The first point for the M14 is that there are those moments when you run headlong into a group of clots and get snagged, this is when a gorefast or Scrake is bearing down on you. You need to free quickly but your trapped in the grasp of 4 clots. All of a sudden that 0.56 cycle time takes an age, especially if 1 shot doesn't catch the head. 0.25 on the other hand allows you to fire shots more than twice as fast and makes it alot easier to escape from situations like this.

Although the LAR can out damage the M14 you have to take into consideration that the LAR has half the bullets in a full clip, which means a missed shot is much more greatly punished on teh LAR than the M14. If you miss that headshot, that second it takes to cock the gun can cause you to take a hit you could have avoided with the larger clip size of the M14.

Also with the clip size is the overall ammo count. The LAR does 35% more damage than the M14 for each headshot, but the M14 has 100% more ammo. The overall damage in a LAR for a perfect round is 24920 points. The M14 overall damage is 28800 points. So although the LAR does more damage per shot the overall damage avialable for the weapon is a fair way higher.

Finally is the reload. To reload 10 bullets in the LAR takes 6.7 uninterupted seconds. The M14 takes 3.366 seconds for 20 bullets. Perk bonus changes these to 2.68 seconds and 1.34 seconds respectively. Not only does the M14 reload twice as fast, it also gets its full 20 bullets again whereas the LAR can find issues with cosntant pressure.

The LAR does excel in certain aspects of the game, but you cannot ignore the M14's versatility. It has alot of abilities that are desirable for a sharpshooter player, and as good as the LAR is, I feel the M14 does enough to warrant the extra spending.

 

[Rainydaykid]

Yeah, I think I will start giving the M14 a try.