List of Upgrades

[Branden]

Thanks chap. Lets hope the Russians get some more upgrades. Even an improved bolt lever would be nice.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

The SVT had/has accuracy of up to 1500meters, which is 500 meters short of both K98 and MN91/30.

1500 meters ??! No hishniks, the real thing accurate out to around 400 meters, it suffers from pretty severe shot dispersion thanks to poor barrel harmonics and the high tolerances of the design leading to excessive barrel whip.

Okay, you're right though, someone decided to add some weird 6x scope that isnt very realistic, countered by even less realistic prototype weapons.

So now the Mkb is a counter to the 6x scoped SVT as-well ?

At some point of time you have to realize that there is a balancing issue involved. While maybe MKB kicks excessively compared to the 'real' thing, we should keep in mind:
a. unless we have ability to get hands on the actual prototype, it might have been kicking that much, we've only got the STG to judge by, which is a finished product

Sorry but that is simply nonsense hishniks.

How exactly are you going to explain a noticable difference in recoil betwen two such near identical weapons ? Answer is you can't, because:

1) The stock designs are near identical
2) Cambering is identical
3) Weight is near identical
4) Rate of fire is near identical (500 vs 550 rpm)

In short: If you're suggesting there should be any noticable difference in terms of recoil between the MkB & StG then your technical knowledge on automatic firearms is very limited.

You yourself say here, that both guns are "easy" to control, with MP40 being 'noticably easier' in RO2 MP40 is super easy to control from the very first level, whereas controlling PPSh is like taming a wildest horse doped amphetamines out in the steppes. Also take note that Russians knew about the high speed of PPSh and that's why they included selective fire switch... Which is missing from game until you get to lvl 50.... Makes good sense to me... Last i checked, selective fire on MKB/AVT/MG34 is from lvl 1

The recoil of both the Mkb42 & PPSh is too high to begin with, I've said this many times by now. However why you think it's a big problem that the PPSh doesn't start out with selective fire I cannot understand, simply because of how ineffective it is.

The PPSh shoots a small & light bullet at a high initial velocity, but this velocity drops off very quickly thanks to a very low bullet BC of .115, making it a great round for up close work but, a terrible round at ranges past 75 m.

You have to differentiate the weapons, MKB has less recoil than its counterpart AVT, and actually it has about same recoil as PPSh... Which is odd, taken into a count the difference in the rounds used.

The Mkb42 kicks a lot more than the PPSh41 ingame, if you can't even see that then you must be wearing some very colored glasses.

While I can understand the thinking behind making AVT being that bad (in reality its about the same, we are talking about a 7.62x54R round fast fired)All in all, i still find myself questioning the weapon choice of "Elite Assault" classes if you will, I would've opted to perhaps settle for FG42 vs. AVS36, both being somewhat on the same playing field.

The FG42 was even less numerous than the Mkb42 in 1942, and AFAIK none were present on the eastern front until 1943.

As for "fixing" i guess i was referring to stat reset, because i avoid MKB's at all costs, i will proudly wear the bolt, than pick up MKB, but i did try it back before reset (though i was Hero at the time) and it had NO recoil whatsoever. And not too long ago i picked it up to see if any changes been made (after one of the big patches) and (i'm lvl 1 with it) it climbs pretty quickly on full auto.

Pretty quickly? Try with the word 'ridiculously' next time

Once again - balance... Russians had crap for weapons, they were using older made weapons, but they had stronger will to survive, and most of the time were on defensive, and the high command had no problem with literally 'disposing' of millions of soldiers to achieve nothing.
That being said, should we, in the name of 'reality' balance out the weapons realism by introducing the playing ratio of teams being three Allies per every one Axis player?

No, you should simply give the Russian team twice the reinforcements (i.e. twice as many respawns), then we will have a scenario closer to reality.

^^^Exactly what i was leading into at first when i mentioned MG42 (Which was the War production era made gun, thus simplified to make faster and cheaper)

Well, it didn't replace the MG34 because it was cheaper to make, it replaced it because it was better

The MG42 might not have been capable of semi auto fire, but only because it simply didn't need it. The Germans had learned through battlefield experience that the enemy usually was within your sights for only a split second before he was gone again. The MG42 designed with these experiences in mind, adhering to the philosophy of putting as many bullets into as small an area as fast as possible. As such, with 1500 rpm ROF the MG42 fires so fast that it can fire off two bullets before the recoil of first one has a chance to alter the point of aim by any significant amount, increasing battlefield lethality. The obvious downside ofcourse is that ammunition supply is exhausted quite quickly.

I sure do.. I'd love to have people jam their weapons. And i'm not saying make only German weapons jam, far from it... Make every weapon open to jamming, just keep it somewhat on historical scale, and it'll be great.

Well that would mean a lot of jamming for the PPSh's with drum mags ingame, which I am sure a lot of people would be quite unhappy with.

Lets be real, most likely G43 (the SVT clone gas operated system, reworked G41) most likely did NOT make it into this battle... So make Germans suffer with G41, which was a prototype, and it was absolutely horrific one at that. It was jamming all the time, it was not nearly as accurate as it would become later.

The G41 had issues with gas system fouling, however this could be avoided with proper maintenance. But yeah, the G41 was more suceptible to jamming than the G43 and required a lot more maintenance, which took longer with the G41 as-well thanks to its many more intricate parts (The latter is what led the German army to deem the G41 unsuited for military use). As for the accuracy, the G41 is one of the few very accurate semi autos made in WW2, being more accurate even than its' successor the G43, thanks to better barrel harmonics.

As Vesper mentioned, MG (and later K98) was essentially the most reliable gun of Nazi Germany, the tough winters of Russia took it's toll on their weapons. Russians had their fair share of problems, but most of them were actually something to do with soldiers not cleaning the "storage cosmoline" off before using the gun... That's what most of the jams were contributed to... Yes i'd love to see actual gun jamming

Some of the old MN1891's from WW1 pressed into service again in WW2 might have had some cosmoline on them, but 95% of the weapons that the Russians went into battle with in WW2 certainly didn't have cosmoline on them; they simply weren't old enough for that, and esp. not PPSh41's which had only just reached mass service!

 

[hishnik]

Unus Offa, Unus Nex, did you notice how our answers are getting proportionally longer and longer with every time

Let me end it this madness...
We're all on the same team, team of make the crazy recoils go away. Be it MKB or PPSh... I think <?> we're on the same team of 'add something to prevent railgunning'.

I'm not a gunsmith, nor am i a historian, i'm not old enough to have served in WWII to know what the guns were like under the conditions.
My knowledge comes from:
a. Personal collecting of firearms
b. Researching the vast realms of internet on topics, such as firearms/ammo/etc
c. Watching programs that talk about history or weapons, or compare them one to another. (i'm talking about 'legit', "Hitler channel"... errr "History Channel" type of programs, not some youtube channel bs)

My claims on whats "realistic" or what weapons were "prototype" is based solely on the research and aligning the timelines (e.g. knowing that Stalingrad siege was between 23rd of August 1942 and 2nd of February 1943, by most accounts, most likely G43, a gun that made it into production in year 1943, might not have made it to the eastern front just yet)

As for SVT, that was my moment of 'retardation', the numbers were flipped. I Meant to say that the range if 500, which is 1500 meters short of MN/Mauser.

With Germans, it's fairly simple math, if it has the number in the name, thats 95% time is the year it went into service. Thats why i'm saying the MG42, FG42 G41 are much more likely contenders than the counterparts we're playing around with.

As for my comment about increasing the number, I would think (based on scenario of course) in a lot of cases the number of Russians should be overwhelming.. Not due to reinforcement, but physical number.
Logic behind it - you dont feel overwhelmed when you look at the counter and see that it's 150 vs. 200... Because you know that you could even it out still... Now if you are sitting there with 13 more of your buddies on your team, and you got 18 Russians charging at you... bit different perspective, even if they're carrying some complete POS crap for guns, you might no longer be opting in to use the MG for 'sniping', you might end up using it for 'cover' or suppressive fire..

I'm not here to make one side better than the other, i'm just calling it out as i see it... I honestly, didnt pay attention to the details of models that you brought up... I didnt study the history of Nazi Germany, or their uniforms, i have no idea whether it was one type of clothing they had or multiple. I'm still bedazzled as to why Allies here have three different types of clothing in first place.

As for MKB vs. STG, all i was saying is that i never held MKB in my hands, and only saw it on websites (most are questionable), and do have very limited knowledge on the specs of that particular gun. STG is a finished product, we have a whole variety of places to get our info from. Look at another finished product that STG spawned, the AK... Owning AK47 chambered AK, i can attest to the fact that it does deliver quite a feedback to its user, not as bad as MN (which i also have) but so much more than the pistol, or the machine pistol round.
I've modified my AK, and can tell you (and from what i can tell you already know this yourself) that changing out just few vital parts (stock, muzzlebreak, hell, even the slight change in balance of the gun) can make a pretty big difference on the weapon itself.
All i can go off of, are the pictures, we dont know if the stock is hollow inside or not. Take AK stocks, the military AK stock is half hollow inside, because its meant to keep your cleaning tools in it, civilian production - full stock.

Once again, yes, needs reduced accuracy, but to a point. We need to keep in mind the balancing effects it will have.
Example (listed in caliber increasing order):
MP40 (9mm) - Slower rate of fire, allows for more controlability, but suffers in CQC
PPSH (7.62x25) - High rate of fire, suffers with controlled fire, but superior in CQC
MKB ( 7.9mm short) - Medium rate of fire, allows for controlled fire, and good CQC penetration due to round fired
AVT (7.62x54R) - High rate of fire, suffers with controlled fire, but superior in CQC with penetration of a rifle round.

I think this was the original intend... But somewhere down the line, something broke. AVT is uncontrollable, PPSH is a buzzsaw (feels like shooting a very high speed .22, damage wise), MKB is penetrating everything, at medium rate of fire, and MP40 is the ultimate gun, medium ROF, but able to penetrate most barricades, and super accurate.

btw, if you youtube the RO2 MKB gameplay, you'll see the recoil that's very manageable (can be due to it happening during the stat messup moment)
Red Orchestra 2 Mkb 42 Gameplay (HD) - YouTube

Whereas the counterpart, AVT, and this isnt the worst
Red Orchestra 2 beta AVT40 Gameplay - YouTube

 

[Vesper11]

1500 meters ??! No hishniks, the real thing accurate out to around 400 meters, it suffers from pretty severe shot dispersion thanks to poor barrel harmonics and the high tolerances of the design leading to excessive barrel whip.

Wiki says effective range is 500m, 800+ with scope, I'm fine with it and its not a designated sniper rifle.
p.s. G41 x4 is enough, its not like x6 give THAT much of advantage especially in Stalingrad (maybe even a disadvantage, as your cone of vision is reduced even more).

In short: If you're suggesting there should be any noticable difference in terms of recoil between the MkB & StG then your technical knowledge on automatic firearms is very limited.

You talk like you work in a WW2 firearms museum.

The PPSh shoots a small & light bullet at a high initial velocity, but this velocity drops off very quickly thanks to a very low bullet BC of .115, making it a great round for up close work but, a terrible round at ranges past 75 m.

Still enough to kill you from 150-200m. Effective range was 150m, no problems with PPSh, next!

The Mkb42 kicks a lot more than the PPSh41 ingame, if you can't even see that then you must be wearing some very colored glasses.

Ever tried removing your glasses? =_=

No, you should simply give the Russian team twice the reinforcements (i.e. twice as many respawns), then we will have a scenario closer to reality.

If they had twice the ammount of manpower why do they have to fight "fair" (lol) with their enemies. Ridiculous. Dont need it in game though, IRL soviets had less training (though some had expirience that more than just compensated the lack of training) thus the same number of players on both teams and it should stay that way if TWI fixes some guns, maps and tanks.

The MG42 might not have been capable of semi auto fire, but only because it simply didn't need it. The Germans had learned through battlefield experience that the enemy usually was within your sights for only a split second before he was gone again. The MG42 designed with these experiences in mind, adhering to the philosophy of putting as many bullets into as small an area as fast as possible. As such, with 1500 rpm ROF the MG42 fires so fast that it can fire off two bullets before the recoil of first one has a chance to alter the point of aim by any significant amount, increasing battlefield lethality. The obvious downside ofcourse is that ammunition supply is exhausted quite quickly.

Sorry to dissapoint, but in a game where machine gun is basically a full automatic sniper rifle, MG42 wouldnt have its advantage. But I hope that TWI will improve suppression. BTW, higher RoF means more jamming and recoil.

Well that would mean a lot of jamming for the PPSh's with drum mags ingame, which I am sure a lot of people would be quite unhappy with.

You keep talking about drum mag like some broken tape player because its the only thing you can talk about and say "Soviets will be unhappy with jaming!" when in reality its you who doesnt want jamming to be introduced in game. So biased its ridiculous.

Spoiler!

note: fanbois are biased

Quote "The 71-round drum magazine had a tendency of jamming if it was loaded with 65-68 rounds or more", you get 64 rounds and you get almost zero jamming. Now if you talk about MP-40 and other axis weapons jamming, now thats what people (especially those who think axis guns were the best) will be very unhappy about (no one likes getting nerfed). Soviets, I bet, will be on the conterary, very happy with the change, as they will have less problems than axis thus more killing to be done and more balanced game to be played.

p.s. In Stalingrad even grease got frozen...

Spoiler!

An

Full Auto MG42, Stg44, MP40 - YouTube

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Unus Offa, Unus Nex, did you notice how our answers are getting proportionally longer and longer with every time

Yes, which is why I am going to make this one relatively short

Let me end it this madness...
We're all on the same team, team of make the crazy recoils go away. Be it MKB or PPSh... I think <?> we're on the same team of 'add something to prevent railgunning'.

The biggest problem in terms of weapons handling that this game has atm is the excessive recoil of some weapons (Mkb42, PPSh41, MG34 etc.), and the lack of sway. So on that note we agree, yes.

Regarding youtube videos of people playing the game, since we can't tell what lvl the gun is at or the skill of the guy behind the controls, it would be a pretty pointless affair to try and draw any conclusions from such vids.

The real difference between the ingame weapons we will know once the SDK gets released, then we will be able to see the exact difference in recoil the weapons have, amongst other things.

Also the following things just should've never been added to the game IMO:
- 4x scoped G41 (didn't exist)
- 6x scoped SVT40 (didn't exist)
- MP40/II (even more rare than the Mkb42)
- ZF41 (Except for the K98)

Anyway, whilst we may not agree on everything, I am glad we can atleast keep a civil toned discussion hishniks. Sadly the same can't be said about Vesper11 who's been acting more like an upset teenager than anything else.

 

[Vesper11]

Actually I'm having fun here. Just saying. Also even if civil I dont see it being mature with you being so biased and stubborn.

 

[Wookie87]

OT: To be honest Vesper11, your starting to sound like a broken tape too. Half your posts in reply to Unas Offa's post have been directly/indirectly inflammetory. I get people disagreeing with eachother but geeze. Cool off abit. Unas Offa, hishnik and you been putting some quite interesting posts on the whole recoil/inbalance things,but you usually ruin your posts by adding some nonsense over fanboyism etc. If Unas is a fanboy, i'd hate to think what you'd consider a hardcore fanboy to be like.


More ontopic : Atleast recouil is better than RO1...

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Full Auto MG42, Stg44, MP40 - YouTube

Hahaha! Gotta love watching amateurs give their conclusions after trying out a gun for the first time in their life!

For a more professional analysis, try Larry Vickers, a former spec ops and now a lecturing weapons expert:
Larry Vickers and the Sturmgewehr 44 - YouTube

SturmGewehr 1944 Then And Now AK47_7.62x39mm_ StG44_7.92x33mm - YouTube

Take note on the facts given at 1:54 min esp.

 

[Vesper11]

edit: NVM, Wookie's right, thanks. I should find a better thing to spend my free time on.
edit2: NVM2, not going to reply - even if its fun, its just too useless to argue with fanbois.
edit3: Argh... cant avoid remarks, have to try harder.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

What do you know, a working Mkb42!
German MKB MP42(h) Sturmgewehr machine gun - YouTube

StG44
MP-44 Full Auto - YouTube

 

[[Mad_Murdock]]

but, a terrible round at ranges past 75 m.

Tsk tsk, now thats just silly you should know better than that. I've got a pair of .22LR carbines effective way farther than that. and those are cast lead .22

No, you should simply give the Russian team twice the reinforcements (i.e. twice as many respawns), then we will have a scenario closer to reality.

May hold true for some parts of the war, but very far from general reality, most of all for Stalingrad where we are talking about around 275000 german vs at most 330000 (less than 200000 at the time of the initial attack) soviet troops, most of which arrived incrementally rather than all at once like 6th Army. The only time the battle took this kind of imbalance was during Operation Uranus and the Soviet counteroffensive, but i do not think our maps cover that, certainly not the ones in the city proper.


Other than those two, i like the rest of your post. Its good to see that we can still have a reasonable discussion on this forum. Getting to be a rare sight with all the doomsayers and zealots we've got all of a sudden.

On a personal note its really a shame that the SVT suffers from the drawbacks it does, i really love the gun and i think it could have been a game changer, or at least a help, in the early war had there been more and the soldiers took better care of them.

 

[Kerc Kasha]

Just confirming that the DP-28 does not have a level 50 upgrade as I just got to 25 and yeah nadda.

 

[hishnik]

I guess the updated SDK will settle most of the weapon questions.
I still believe that a better way to go about upgrades, is to have first wave (lvl 25) of 'physical upgrades' (e.g. your larger capacity mags, improved scopes, bayonets, etc) and second wave (lvl 50) be the 'lessons learned' upgrades. Because most likely those fighting in WWII, didnt always go after the newest item, but they probably stuck to the old trusty gun, even if it had drawbacks, they knew their ways around them.
So say, example of the upgrade for PPSH would be at lvl 50 a 64 round drum, instead of 71. Reduced round count for increased reliability. I'd take that any day of the week. Or for instance for German weapons, it'd be say better grease, that withstands the sub-freeze temperatures better.

I dont think we should burn Vesper at the stake for a slip up. Sure, he participated in heated discussion with over-zealous comments.
But he brought up a lot of fair points, that shouldn't be overlooked either.
I'm sure that a third party reading through mine, or Unus's comments can also draw a conclusion that we were on the edge of slipping at certain times.

@Mad_Murdock: As for SVT, i personally love that gun, the history of it fascinates me, i've been searching for one to add into my collection of firearms. Its so funny (and sad) to see Russians disregard weapons as too complicated, versus where Germans who are used to taking care of their weapons take care of the gun and it operates great for them. And Russians are the ones with saying: "Technology in the hands of barbarian is nothing more than a piece of scrapmetal"

@Videos: Same comment can be made about videos of shooters, as was made
regarding videos of gameplay. We (at least i) cant tell you for a 100% fact, if the weapon held is in fact a protorype MKB weapon, or STG... A lot of people will name STG an MP43/4, or MKB. So it's quite possible that videos are mislabeled :/

 

[[TORO]Patosentado]

In the video Vesper 11 put (very nice indeed, I love the sounds) the MP40 bounds a lot, and StG44 really a lot.
That was because the german doctrine in automatic weapons design was putting a very heavy bolt in them to control rate of fire and improve reliability. That was extreme in recoil operated weapons as the MG42 but noticeable also in blowback SMG and gas operated ones. I have only fired the spanish Z70 SMG, based in the MP40 design, and recoil is huge... even short bursts climb to the ceiling...
As for DP28 improvements... there were not any IRL, so it is logical not to put them in the game. The belt-fed DT is a good idea as level 50 weapon...

 

[Ivan_Sidorenko]

for the Scoped MN9130 when you reach level 25 does it automatticily put it on the rifle? And also does anybody know what the lvl 50 Upgrade is.

 

[shaqism]

Level 50 avt 40, worked hard

 

[Vorkoz]

How's the recoil on level 50 AVT on burst fire?

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Level 50 avt 40, worked hard

I'm almost there Im at lvl 44... Can't wait for the scope

 

[Dawnbreaker]

How's the recoil on level 50 AVT on burst fire?

At lvl 44 (which im at), its ALOT more controllable... ive gotten kills out to 150M on auto

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Tsk tsk, now thats just silly you should know better than that. I've got a pair of .22LR carbines effective way farther than that. and those are cast lead .22

You misunderstood me, my comment was in response to the effectiveness of single shot capability for the PPSh41.

The 7.62 Tokarev round itself is certainly lethal past 75 m, heck I wouldn't wanna be in its' way at 400 m even. I was refering mainly to accuracy, where the 7.62 Tokarev has problems past 75-100 m when fired through a crude open bolt automatic weapon like the PPSh.

Also I am unsure of how effective a 7.62 Tokarev would be against a thickly clothed soldier at ranges past 75-100 m. It would probably take quite a few shots to dispose of such a soldier with only single shot capability, whilst at 900 rpm it wouldn't matter much simply because of the sheer number of hits the target will be taking in a short time.

In general though effective range of the 7.62x25 round is usually listed as 150 m, which is completely true most of the time.

As for your .22 LR's, I don't think they'd be very effective against a human past 75 m, unless ofcourse you aim for the sweet spots