Light Machine Guns

[6S.Manu]

Hi everybody,

I've just read "The German squad in combat" prepared by the American Military Intelligence Service (01/25/1943).

The most evident thing is that all the German unit works around the LMG. The MG34 (and the MG42) is the most important weapon of the squad and its position in the field of battle is the real factor for the victory.

Now I've been playing this Beta since 16 hours and it seems to me and to my squad mates that LMG have not that great influence... for example yesterday I was playing the "Barracks" map where I placed my MG on the left flank of the "C" building, so I could cut the russian reinforcement: players keep running in front of me but I managed to kill somthing like the 30% of them. It seems that's really inaccurate or not powerful to kill a player and not only wound him: maybe it could be a general DM problem ( from a distance of 3 meters with the kar98 I shot a guy in the back twice and he need to be finished by another guy).

Before the "you're not noob!" sentence I must say that in RO1 my aim was a lot better.

I can't talk about power of suppression of these weapons against the SMG's one since I've not tested that yet.

So what do you think about these LMGs?

 

[ALYKZANDYR]

the problem isnt so much the gun, its the fact that outside of clans and such people dont operate as a unit, they each do their own thing. which is a problem with playing with random people. you need to be in a group of people that know how a Unit operates, and actually work as a team.

 

[Icey_Pain]

I think it all has to do with how they are set up. In the hands of a MG34 expert it can turn into a weapon of destruction really fast. It really is the strongest gun in the game once set up, it can blow through most types of cover including walls so it's the method of putting down some heavy fire on places that are hard to reach for other classes.

There is however still the issue of people being able to respawn rather quickly, which makes fear of getting shot much less so. But on countdown I've been able to make all the difference before, litterally mowing down half of the enemy team.

 

[Maizel]

This has been discussed yesterday here:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=60654&highlight=mg+underperforming


From that thread

It;s probably because the weapons are more accurate overall than in RO1. And because there is 0 sway.

Every shot is a hit from almost any range. So it takes only 1 guy to notice the MGer and shoot 1 bullet at him. So you die fast, almost everytime, without knowing that hit you, and without having the chance to relocate after a bullet comes whizzing by.

MGing is now so risky, it's not worth the effort anymore.

 

[Luckless]

I'm starting to think that the MGs in general need to have a slightly stronger suppression mechanic that can cover a wider area. Currently the few times I've used the MGs I can keep the head of one, maybe two guys down/kill them out right, but will very quickly get picked off by their buddy in the next window. If I'm shooting directly at a guy in a window with a high rate of fire from a machine gun, he should either: A, die quickly, or B, require a new pair of shorts and not be able to pry himself off the floor to return fire. However, his buddy in the window less than 10 feet from him should not be too eager to stick his head out to look for the gunner.

Maybe also lower the gunner's profile as he is looking down the sights? Reduce his target, make him harder to pick off.

A strong machine gun position is suppose to be hard to take out, that is why they were used so much.

 

[Sight]

MG's are really effective and powerful, yet you need some time to master them.

They have very satisfying recoil, i love to shoot them and you really need to get used to how to work that baby.I guess that is the main problem for many palyers.

Controlling recoil and following a target that is running from left ro right over the street is the hardest target you can pick and it gets even harder when the target is not on the same height as you but e.g. down a street and you are upstairs in a window.

Learn to control the recoil and you will be a beast.

Those guns are no joke, yet the lower profile and stronger supression mechanisms ideas are really nice and i really dig them.

 

[Damo]

Here's the thing.

The majority of people that grab the MG and Sniper positions tend usually to prove useless to the team. It's all down to them not fulfilling the role, and not using the effect of their weapons for the good of the team's efforts.

Used correctly, the MG is devastating and the Sniper can clear a defence in minutes given a good position.

You rarely get that, or the co-ordination needed though, as most people are playing for themselves.

 

[MikkOwl]

I like them a lot. The MG34 and DP-28 are not exactly the monster the MG42 was in "Darkest Hour" but they are capable of great feats. Compared to the previous RO games it seems that people have a much easier time to spot and accurately hit the machine gunner, making it more difficult to do well with them.

They are hard to set up in a way that is not exposed to the enemy.

Forget about using them offensively by yourself. They really need team work for that sort of thing. Other people to draw out the fire and attention of the enemy defenders, so the MG can deploy without instantly getting killed, and start shooting at the enemy.

They penetrate more than one wall with ease. Terrific weapons for clearing out the 'fortifications' that consist of lots of building windows. People always lurk near windows and doorways, and the MG has the ability to pepper the walls thoroughly.

Accurate shooting is easily possible. Shoooort bursts is the keyword. Very short. Just tap the mouse button.

They have only small capacity drum magazines which is a real problem. Reloading is slow, and with the gunner already in high danger, reloads are often anxiety provoking. Don't have many spare magazines either. Easy to run out if being busy for a while.

Learning to deploy in not so obvious ways is probably the most important skill to have. Tricky.

 

[TheRealGunther]

I haven't really used them in RO2 just a few times I saw the need for one.And seen one lying around then died shortly after so I can't really say.I can say tho that prolly half my deaths came from these LMG's so I have a healthy respect for them.

If their anything like ro1's LMG's its all about position

 

[[PEH]Rab]

Before the "you're not noob!" sentence I must say that in RO1 my aim was a lot better.
?

Slightly off topic, but - WHAT?!

How can your aim be better in RO1?

Less sway, added zoom, less recoil. What are you doing wrong? I mean, really, the skill-requirement difference between RO1 and RO2 is just phenomenal. Hitting the target is virtually CoD like in comparison - AND THAT, is why MG's are not as effective. They are too easily incapacitated by an easily placed rifle shot.

In RO1, a well-holed MG was virtually immune to counter fire from riflemen if his angles and cover were both right. I just don't think this is the case anymore as much.

EDIT: Same goes for snipers. They are too easily counter-sniped by infantry that don't even have sniper rifles themselves. In RO1 the advantage between marksman and rifleman was very clear and very distinct, again, in RO2 I don;t feel this is the case as much anymore. Only at extremely long ranges do I anticipate this advantage will count much more. Bottom line - it's too easy to fire on a stationary gun emplacement, particularly a deployed MG.

Yesterday, somebody sidestepped out, quickly aimed and popped me in the head from about 100m while I was targeting someone next to him. Before I could flick my wrist to the right, I was dead. A standing rifleman took me out no problem with quick reflexes. I've done this myself as well and I can tell you right now that in RO1 I wouldn't even dream of trying it against a deployed MG. Cover was a a must.

 

[Maizel]

Slightly off topic, but - WHAT?!

How can your aim be better in RO1?

Less sway, added zoom, less recoil. What are you doing wrong? I mean, really, the skill-requirement difference between RO1 and RO2 is just phenomenal. Hitting the target is virtually CoD like in comparison - AND THAT, is why MG's are not as effective. They are too easily incapacitated by an easily placed rifle shot.

In RO1, a well-holed MG was virtually immune to counter fire from riflemen if his angles and cover were both right. I just don't think this is the case anymore as much.

My thoughts exactly.

In RO1 a dozen shot's would have chased the Mger away to change position, in RO2, the first guy that manages to send 1 bullet at the MG will kill him.

 

[Verluste]

My thoughts exactly.

In RO1 a dozen shot's would have chased the Mger away to change position, in RO2, the first guy that manages to send 1 bullet at the MG will kill him.

It fills my heart with sadness that aiming in RO2 became too easy in such a way that the MG class (and the AT class as well) is feeling the negative consequence of that.

I have not even played the beta, but I can make up my view pretty well from youtube and this forum

 

[Golf33]

The trick to being an effective LMG at the moment is to carry an SMG instead. The MP40 is more accurate, seems to have almost as good penetration, and is far better against a crossing target than the DP28. The times I've picked up an MP40 I've used it like an LMG and found it far more effective than the DP28. Bit sad really.

 

[6S.Manu]

Slightly off topic, but - WHAT?!

How can your aim be better in RO1?

Less sway, added zoom, less recoil. What are you doing wrong? I mean, really, the skill-requirement difference between RO1 and RO2 is just phenomenal. Hitting the target is virtually CoD like in comparison - AND THAT, is why MG's are not as effective. They are too easily incapacitated by an easily placed rifle shot.

In RO1, a well-holed MG was virtually immune to counter fire from riflemen if his angles and cover were both right. I just don't think this is the case anymore as much.

EDIT: Same goes for snipers. They are too easily counter-sniped by infantry that don't even have sniper rifles themselves. In RO1 the advantage between marksman and rifleman was very clear and very distinct, again, in RO2 I don;t feel this is the case as much anymore. Only at extremely long ranges do I anticipate this advantage will count much more. Bottom line - it's too easy to fire on a stationary gun emplacement, particularly a deployed MG.

Yesterday, somebody sidestepped out, quickly aimed and popped me in the head from about 100m while I was targeting someone next to him. Before I could flick my wrist to the right, I was dead. A standing rifleman took me out no problem with quick reflexes. I've done this myself as well and I can tell you right now that in RO1 I wouldn't even dream of trying it against a deployed MG. Cover was a a must.

I know, with rifles is easier with zoom and no sway bu I was a good shot in RO1 too (I never take SMG, rifleman is my favourite class but sometime I take a round with the MG).

I only have real problems hitting with LMGs. In RO1 in Stalingrad Kessel facing my MG on the North Rail Yard I could assure you at least a 80% of kills against the russian going to blow up the wall.

Here really I can't hit a cow with that weapon. Or I see a little spray of blood but no kill.

Nice to know that I can penetrate walls (the thin ones I hope) but I saw PPsh can do it too (probably mp40 too?). It's strange: the hitting power between SMG and LMG should really be vastly different.

 

[6S.Manu]

The trick to being an effective LMG at the moment is to carry an SMG instead. The MP40 is more accurate, seems to have almost as good penetration, and is far better against a crossing target than the DP28. The times I've picked up an MP40 I've used it like an LMG and found it far more effective than the DP28. Bit sad really.

Doh!!!

This is what I'm scared about.

 

[retrofly]

I don't use the MG's, I've tried but you just end up dead.

Your too exsposed as an MG'er, they way it sets you up your whole head is visable, what happens is you get shot by someone at the back of a room opposite barely exsposing their weapon, let alone anything to see or hit.

Weapons are so accurate now pretty much the 1st shot your dead, before at least you were able to return fire, it seems as though surpression does very little, even while shooting directly at someone they will pick me off with their rifle.

In RO1 you felt like you could really turn a battle or effect it in some way with an MG, in RO2 I get the feeling I'd be more useful to the team as a Squad leader or rifelman. I get more kills, and I'm able to move about cap zones etc.

it's actually quite common in new FPS's LMG's are used relatively little as Assault rifels are so accurate, they dominate a sitting duck with an MG.

In RO1 I feared the sound of a roaring MG, now its the sound of dinner time.

I belive MG surpession shoudl work differently to all others, if an MG fully surpresses you, you should be so gripped with fear that you arn't able to fire your weapon, at least this would make the MG's more useful than they are now

 

[Maizel]

The trick to being an effective LMG at the moment is to carry an SMG instead. The MP40 is more accurate, seems to have almost as good penetration, and is far better against a crossing target than the DP28. The times I've picked up an MP40 I've used it like an LMG and found it far more effective than the DP28. Bit sad really.

I agree. The weapon balance is so out of whack in this game.

The only thing MG's seem good for is to pick them when the SMG classes are full.

With the nerfed ammo cap, nerfed damage lack of penetration and the general pin point 10000% accuarcy of rifles from every range without even trying to aim properly, the MG's just seem glorified submachine guns.

Except for the fact that smg in the game seem to do everything better than a MG.

 

[Prof]

Except for the fact that smg in the game seem to do everything better than a MG.

Meh...they still don't look as cool as an MG34

 

[Coreldan]

I've said this before, but I say this again. People seem to refer to that RO took much more skill in shooting than RO2, I find this complete bull****. Just cos it was indeed harder to land shots did not mean it had anything to do with skills. Having some random sway to ruin half of your shots (in comparison to RO2) does not make anyone a skilled shooter.

If anything, RO2 brings skilled shooters much more visible than RO1 ever did.

I'm not, however, saying that there's nothing wrong with the things brought up in this thread, I'm just trying to say that having more RNG to make you miss shots does not make a game more skill-requiring.

More on the topic, it all depends so much. I've had dozens of round where I top the scoreboards with nothing but kills and the occasional "in cap zone" or "protected squad leader" bonuses you get from killing people. I do however agree that to find such position and being able to hold it can be very hard and it can be all over very very soon cos it is indeed very easy to land those shots at the deployed MGer. I guess what could be done is more radius for the suppression as mentioned, make a new animation for shooting an MG that exposes less of the shooter, let us deploy the MG even when crouched behind a window (the times I've died while mid-animation deploying are many).

Comparing SMGs to MGs is pretty stupid anyway, they do not compete in the same league or you are a horrible MGer. And yeah, it's not even all about the kills, the area of denial you can do with a well set-up MG is amazing I dont think I'm that good of an MGer myself, but I've met some seriously scary individuals.

Also more directly for the OP: There seems to some whacky hit detection at times which could explain some of your problems. I guess one thing is that you have to lead targets alot even relatively close up.

 

[6S.Manu]

I wrote a longer post before of this but it seems to be still in moderation...

Anyway I've always had a good aim even in RO1 (ingame I'm usually a rifleman) and so in RO2... but in RO2 I only have really big problems with MGs: it's not that I'm being killed by other guys (who of course happens!), it's that I can't kill enemies even at 50m.