Liberation Day - The Aftermath

[Siegertyp]

While discussing the aftermath of VE Day, I was stunned that some aspects of history seem to be completely blocked out of the awareness of even historically interested Russians.

It obviously touches a sensitive matter to patriotic Russians: war crimes committed by the Red Army.

One of the aspects is the mass rape of women after the "Liberation" by the Red Army.
Anthony Beevor, the renowned historian, called it the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history"

While mostly German women were affected, Soldiers of the Red Army also raped Polish and Hungarian women on a large scale, even liberated concentration camp prisoners were among the victims.

More can be read here: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

This thread is not meant as a general demonization of the Red Army nor a relativization of the horrendous crimes the SS, the SD and the German Wehrmacht committed in the Soviet Union.

I was simply puzzled that historical facts seem to be unknown or even gainsaid in today's Russia and that evidence contradicting the seemingly popular Russian view are dismissed as Goebbel's or Cold War propaganda.

I would be interested to see how this topic is viewed in other countries, especially those who suffered under a longtime Soviet occupation.

 

[Siegertyp]

Rape during the liberation of Poland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_Poland

"The subject of rape during the liberation of Poland was practically absent from the Polish historiography until the dissolution of the Soviet Union, although the documents of the era show that the problem was serious both during and after the advance of Soviet forces across Poland against Nazi Germany in later stages of World War II. The lack of research for nearly half a century regarding the scope of sexual violence by Soviet males, had been magnified by the traditional taboos among their victims, who were incapable of finding "a voice that would have enabled them to talk openly" about their wartime experiences "while preserving their dignity," wrote Katherine R. Jolluck. Joanna Ostrowska and Marcin Zaremba of the Polish Academy of Sciences wrote that rapes of the Polish women reached a mass scale following the Winter Offensive of 1945."


Although my russian discussion partner insisted that wikipedia in his view has an anti russian bias, I would like to point out that a large part of that wikipedia article is based on the work of polish historians.

 

[Siegertyp]

Documentary about Red Army war crimes in Hungary: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...shame-hungarian-women-remember-wartime-rapes/

"According to Skrabski, it

 

[Clowndoe]

If it's only in Russia that they deny it, why post it here then?

 

[Siegertyp]

Because in this community the players are from lots of different countries:

a) I would like to know how other Russians view this topic. As I said, I was completely baffled that a Russian whom I was talking to and who I know is interested in military history completely denied that Red Army soldiers committed mass rapes in occupied countries. I don't know how this is officially handled in Russian schools or in public today, if it is still officially outright denied, ignored, or actually acknowledged but just not talked about.

b) While I know a lot about the cases in Germany and spoke to eyewitnesses of those crimes, I know not that much of them in other countries under Soviet occupation. Perhaps someone can add to the articles that I posted.

 

[Siegertyp]

While reading about Soviet war crimes in the Baltics, I read an interesting comment by a Russian scientist from the Russian Academy of Sciences:

"among the many and varied Stalinist political myths that have been gradually destroyed in Russia in recent decades, the

 

[morticore]

The Red Army committed a lot of crimes during so called "liberation of Eastern Europe". Arrival of Soviet soldiers was always a massive rape and stealing of everything that can be stolen on tremendous scale. Terror of the Red Army was important factor in enforcement of communism in Poland. Thousands of Polish patriots, democratic politicians, social activists were murdered after the war by communists and Soviet "anti-reactional" services. That is why I believe that "monuments of thankfulness for the Red Army"* that are common in many Polish cities are improper and should be removed.


*It does not mean that in example graves of Russians in Poland fallen during war against nazi Germany should not be honored.

 

[Siegertyp]

Right, these monuments were often not only a memorial to the fallen, but became a symbol for the new oppression.

I have heared from many people in various East European countries that they perceived the "liberation" more as a change from one dictatorship to another. Not quite as brutal as the Nazi dictatorship, but still assiociated with rape, murder, theft and suppression.

In Prague there was a Soviet tank memorial that was removed after lots of protests, including painting it pink.

 

[Perun58]

Perun58

Perun58

I was ignoring this until you mentioned pink tank in Prague.
I am Czech and I can tell you that strong majority of Czechs disagree with this pink tank (IS-2). I personally consider this guy who made it shame of our nation. There are tons of articles against it on the internet and I don't know even a single person who likes it. Besides Prague citizens are different then the rest of the republic. Many people who were enemies of communism still say it's disrespect to fallen soldiers. There are people who say they were fighting during communist times against claiming there were only Soviets who saved us and now they are completely angry that after fall of communism there is exactly opposite situation and there is no respect for fallen Soviet soldiers.

Comparing communist regime (at least in my country) and nazism is completely ridiculous - for whole 50 years of communism there is smaller number of casualties then for ONE WEEK under nazism. And I am completely serious about these numbers. 300 000 people died in Czechoslovakia under nazism ... that's totally incomparable with casualties of communism for 50 years of it's existence.

Rapes by Soviets were in Czechoslovakia rare and individual cases and there are still many people who remember soviet arrival (and mostly in good light).

I can't speak for whole Europe but for majority of Czechs / Slovakians May 8 is a day of not only liberation and victory, but also they were Soviets saved lifes all of us. If they weren't come, Czechoslovakians would be either killed or moved to Siberia and I wouldn't be here to write this.

Rapes in Germany are strongly overestimated as many historians say and there are also many "guesses" (yes guesses, because that's the only thing you can do to get number of raped German women).

For example check this: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84324

You should realize that this .. rapes and murders were done by total minority of Red Army soldiers who were not able to survive the war with healthy mind and we have no idea what these men saw. After years of loundness, screaming, bombing, waching your comrades die and maybe loosing your entire family .. I think those people had nothing to loose anymore. Strong majority of Soviet soldiers were welcomed as heroes they were. That is what is known to me according to stories of people, photos and other sources.

Removing monuments is something that must not happen. That would be great disrespect that I will never support.
For me sacrifice of Red Army is something I will never forget, because it's something thanks to which I am alive today. Even in my very small city tens of Soviet soldiers lost their lifes to liberate this small unimportant town. And I am happy to see that there are still tons of people who realize this and after victory day I can see Soviet monuments filled with flowers.. not because of small percentage of soldiers who lost their mind in war, or criminals in the army, or politicians who used this liberation as a symbol for their ideals... but because of that strong majority of Red Army, who made great sacrefice to save our lives.

 

[Siegertyp]

Thank you for your perspective, Perun.

For some time I have guessed that the view about the arrival of the Red Army differs considerably from country to country and even there from region to region. Even in different parts of Germany there have been different experiences, and not all were negative.

Regarding east Europan countries: because of my ancestry I am more familiar with the situation in parts of Poland. There the Nazi regime was extremely brutal, in the losses of civilian lives was the highest in relative numbers to the population. Warsaw, for example, was completely destroyed.

On the other hand it is still remembered that the Soviet Union, even though they defeated the Nazis, at first entered WW2 as an aggressor. Together with Germany they invaded Poland, they killed thousands of POW officers (Katyn) and deported hundreds of thousands of Polish civilians. What happened when the Red Army returned in 1944 can be read in the link I provided.

In the baltic states there are similar experiences, there the Red Army was often greeted as liberators, but soon it was realized that there was not that much liberty gained, especially for those civilians who were deported and murdered.

About the rapes: the vast majority of new research has found that it is not overestimated, but has long been underestimated, not only in Germany, but especially in Poland and in Hungary. The reaction to this research seems to vary in Russia, for example many younger people in the Kaliningrad region for example seem to be more aware of this than older people in the Moskow region. At least, that is my experience so far, I am interested in how others see that.

Interestingly, contradicting your claim that rape can be explained, if not excused by the soldier's traumatization, I have often heared that the troops that behaved worst were not the front line troops, but the occupation force that followed them. Often I have been told that the front line troops were more sympathetic to the suffering of the civilians because of their own experiences they could relate to that.

 

[Zakarro]

Hmm I made a reply I don't know why it is not showing up.


In any case, yes a family member had told me about this a few years ago, also claimed American GIs were doing the raping of german women too....


Upon further investigation I find out that the one making these claims is a british neo fascist. In any case even though the exaggerated claims are true, is it any different then british army raping Argentinian YOUNG BOYS in the Falkland wars? Or Americans raping Vietnamese women?
Reality is these are low rank 20 year olds doing this, when a CO sees this it is immediately stopped.

 

[morticore]

I believe that Red Army, NKVD and communist government have in Poland much more casualties than in Czechoslovakia. The major problem with evaluation of Soviet's achievements in Poland is fact that they liberated us from the Nazis, not western Allies, not Polish Forces, but the Red Army. I respect effort of USSR in fight against Third Reich but sadly I can't say good word about behaviour of Russian soldiers in Poland. Of course most of the Russians were ordinary people, but there was always somewhere political officer or NKVD unit “looking for spies and hidden, reactional enemies”.

In 1939, in eastern part of Poland that was under Soviet occupation started terror and massive repressions, mostly about "class enemies" - state officials, policemen, lawyers, teachers, capitalists, veterans of Polish-Soviet war of 1920 etc. Whole families were send into Gulags, their property was confiscated. I am sure that you know how looks trials and interrogations conducted by NKVD. Soviets also murdered ca. 20 000 of Polish POWs in Katyn.

In 1944 Red Army entered Poland as "the ally of our allies", but fought against Polish democracy movement and anti-nazi resistance, brave soldiers of our underground forces were called "fascists, betrayers" and exterminated by Soviet and pro-soviet butchers. Support of the Red Army was a key factor in forcing communism in Poland. You propably do not know that in 1945-1948 in my country was still something like a war. Thausends of partisans decided to fight against communists, they were without any chance but they did what was right. Today we call them Żołnierze Wyklęci (Cursed/Outcast soldiers) and I think that they deserved more for the monuments than Red Army. Complicated history of Polish-Soviet relations during second world war is a thing that makes me I CAN'T SAY VE day is a happy anniversary for me.

The whole history about painting the tank pink is in my eyes vandalism without any discussion. In Warsaw we have Monument of Arms Brotherhood from 1945 and in the nearest neighborhood are jails and places of tortures from Stalin’s times. This is disrespectable for victims of communist’s regime. So I believe that better place for this sculpture would be cementery of Red Army soldiers. Instead of that we have pointless political debate from over a year

 

[Zakarro]

Im not to familiar about Poland but from what I gather when you were invaded from both sides, the catholics went running to hitler and the atheists to Stalin.






Is your ethnicity Slavic like Russians?

 

[morticore]

Im not to familiar about Poland but from what I gather when you were invaded from both sides, the catholics went running to hitler and the atheists to Stalin.


Is your ethnicity Slavic like Russians?

Yes, we are Slavic nation. I never heard this story about running 30% population of Poland in 1939 were national minorities: Jews in whole country, Germans in Silesia (Śląsk) and Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) and Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians,Lithuanians on the east. I only know about Jews running to the Soviets but this is easy to understand.

 

[Gamburd]

Im not to familiar about Poland but from what I gather when you were invaded from both sides, the catholics went running to hitler and the atheists to Stalin.






Is your ethnicity Slavic like Russians?

From The Oxford Guide To WWII:

"During the Polish campaign of September 1939, Luftwaffe pilots were specifically ordered to bomb and strafe churches.

On February 3, 1940, the (Nazi)Governor General, Hans Frank, noted in his diary "The (Catholic) Church is the central assembly point of the Polish spirit . . . I know myself that (it) is the deadly enemy of all Germans in the country.'

As a result, the church was reduced to the status of an informal association, directly administered by a department of the SS . . .

Initially, the heaviest blows fell on the districts, such as the so called Wartheland, which were directly incorporated into the Reich with a view to immediate Germanization.

The vast majority of parish churches were closed and their property seized. All seminaries were disbanded.

Polish religious art was systematically profaned or became loot.

The higher clergy were arrested en masse.

The lower clergy, if not murdered on the spot, were often sent to concentration camps: more than 1,500 Polish priests died in Dachau alone and all the monks of the National Shrine at Jasna Gora in Czstochowa perished in Auschwitz.

By the end of 1941, the US State Department reported that only 34 priests out of 828 were left in the Archdiocese of Posen.

A year later, only 2 churches out of 50 were open for worship in the city of Lodz." pp. 735-736.


As Time Inc.'s Pope John Paul II: A Tribute (Life Books, 1999) states: "when religion was tied to a country's sense of self as strongly as Catholicism was tied to Poland's, then religion had to go."

John Paul II writes that thousands of Polish Catholic priests were arrested and deported to concentration camps. Catholic priests were sent to Dachau, Belzec, and Auschwitz.


In Dauchau alone about 3,000 were interned.

Bishop Michal Kozal of Wloclawek was among the Dauchau prisoners and was beatified in Warsaw in 1987 by John Paul II.

 

[Zakarro]

From The Oxford Guide To WWII:

"During the Polish campaign of September 1939, Luftwaffe pilots were specifically ordered to bomb and strafe churches.

On February 3, 1940, the (Nazi)Governor General, Hans Frank, noted in his diary "The (Catholic) Church is the central assembly point of the Polish spirit . . . I know myself that (it) is the deadly enemy of all Germans in the country.'

As a result, the church was reduced to the status of an informal association, directly administered by a department of the SS . . .

Initially, the heaviest blows fell on the districts, such as the so called Wartheland, which were directly incorporated into the Reich with a view to immediate Germanization.

The vast majority of parish churches were closed and their property seized. All seminaries were disbanded.

Polish religious art was systematically profaned or became loot.

The higher clergy were arrested en masse.

The lower clergy, if not murdered on the spot, were often sent to concentration camps: more than 1,500 Polish priests died in Dachau alone and all the monks of the National Shrine at Jasna Gora in Czstochowa perished in Auschwitz.

By the end of 1941, the US State Department reported that only 34 priests out of 828 were left in the Archdiocese of Posen.

A year later, only 2 churches out of 50 were open for worship in the city of Lodz." pp. 735-736.


As Time Inc.'s Pope John Paul II: A Tribute (Life Books, 1999) states: "when religion was tied to a country's sense of self as strongly as Catholicism was tied to Poland's, then religion had to go."

John Paul II writes that thousands of Polish Catholic priests were arrested and deported to concentration camps. Catholic priests were sent to Dachau, Belzec, and Auschwitz.


In Dauchau alone about 3,000 were interned.

Bishop Michal Kozal of Wloclawek was among the Dauchau prisoners and was beatified in Warsaw in 1987 by John Paul II.

Hmm I find that hard to believe considering half of germans were catholics as well.....

 

[Siegertyp]

Hmm I find that hard to believe considering half of germans were catholics as well.....

Not at all if you know more about Nazi ideology. They wanted to completely eradicate all the churches from Germany, but feared unrests in the majority of the faithful population. So they delayed that in the Reich until after the war but started in occupied countries. In 1941 Bormann wanted to hang the archbishop of M

 

[Zakarro]

Not at all if you know more about Nazi ideology. They wanted to completely eradicate all the churches from Germany, but feared unrests in the majority of the faithful population. So they delayed that in the Reich until after the war but started in occupied countries. In 1941 Bormann wanted to hang the archbishop of M

 

[Siegertyp]

Your father is right, the confessions were about half catholic, half protestant.

And yes, Ratzinger who later became Benedikt XVI was conscripted into the hitler youth. That service was compulsory for all boys from 14 to 18 (for girls: BDM), it was established by the Nazis to indoctrinate the youth. Still he did not fall for this indoctrination and maintained his wish to become a priest.

Incidentally, von Galen, the Bishop of M

 

[Zakarro]

So then I guess its true that Hitler and Goebbles were heavily into the occult?