Let's talk Berserker
- Thread starter Skunkee
- Start date
- What do you view as the Berserker's biggest Strength?
tanking the bigger specimens(IE: flesh pounds and skrakes) and primary close range damage dealer
- What do you view as the Berserker's biggest Weakness?
- What situations do you find yourself using the following weapons?
- Knife? - wave 1
- Machete?
- never
- Fire Axe? - unless i find one on the ground, never
- Chainsaw?
- some parts of wave one(all of it alt-fire)
- Katana? - if i feel like playing zerker past wave one, melee weapon for other perks when i have the extra money
- What specimens do you find you have the most trouble killing?
- What specimens do you find you have the least trouble killing?
- What would you say the Berserker's role is in the team aspect of the game?
- If you could change ONE thing about the game to make playing a Berserker more enjoyable, what would it be?
- give all melee attacks auto-fire FOR BEZERKER ONLY(except the knife, it is for everybody)
- un-nerf the chainsaw, it used to be the super weapon for the zerker
If balanced within the current mechanic: Zerker should just flat-out stun (briefly) anything it hits besides FPs- and they should have some way to deal with FPs. This is exactly how it used to work, but they took it away and quashed the only way for zerker to do anything meaningful to FPs.
Here's an idea while I'm typing out loud: give zerker the ability to power-attack-smack (tm) Fleshpounds and snap them out of being enraged.
...but personally, I hate the stunning of the big zeds. I'd much rather do enough damage to kill them without the lame stun-spam. I don't like the stun-spam on scrakes- it erases the fear and the thrill, not just for me, but for the whole team.
Here's an idea while I'm typing out loud: give zerker the ability to power-attack-smack (tm) Fleshpounds and snap them out of being enraged.
...but personally, I hate the stunning of the big zeds. I'd much rather do enough damage to kill them without the lame stun-spam. I don't like the stun-spam on scrakes- it erases the fear and the thrill, not just for me, but for the whole team.
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I think the stun is a good idea, it's just a problem with how stun works.
Right now, when the scrake is stunned he just kind of looks bummed out. Like "damn, that guy just alt fired me with an axe. *hangs head*" Really, I think it should work more like the effect it has on players when they get hit with bloat bile or are otherwise disoriented. If the scrake kept swinging under the stun but had a high chance of missing, or did reduced damage on his hits, or attacked slower, the stun would not detract from the enjoyment so much. There'd still be a thrill of "oh shi, he might gut me!" but you'd have a fair chance against it. Right now it's just "lol alt spam" and there's no sense of danger, except fear of getting crawlers up your pants.
Right now, when the scrake is stunned he just kind of looks bummed out. Like "damn, that guy just alt fired me with an axe. *hangs head*" Really, I think it should work more like the effect it has on players when they get hit with bloat bile or are otherwise disoriented. If the scrake kept swinging under the stun but had a high chance of missing, or did reduced damage on his hits, or attacked slower, the stun would not detract from the enjoyment so much. There'd still be a thrill of "oh shi, he might gut me!" but you'd have a fair chance against it. Right now it's just "lol alt spam" and there's no sense of danger, except fear of getting crawlers up your pants.
I'll bite. I've played probably 4 hours of berzerker since the patch.
Lack of depth compared to the other classes. Their one-note play style. Berzerkers have the fewest viable, balanced weapon options, and the same ol' hack 'n' slash doesn't feel as deep as the gun play in KF. 'Zerkers can mix it up with different load outs, but ultimately playing a berzerker lacks depth. Berzerkers always have money to give people because they have nothing to spend it on, and little to think about.
Their second greatest weakness is that the class makes even good players run off alone like noobs, because they're tried of falling behind in kills staying near the team.
Machete. Honestly, never. The higher damage doesn't show against 75% of the specimen, and the slower attack speed makes it less ideal than the knife. If I find one, it gets turned into cash immediately, even if all I had before was the knife.
Fire Axe. If found, or as the cheapest melee weapon I could afford. I dislike the slow attack speed because it's a liability when you're surrounded. But it has enough attack power to drop a gorefast in one body shot, which is good.
Chainsaw. If I was doing door defense, or feeling extremely lazy. The constant sound from holding down the primary fire gets old very fast and, since the patch and the chainsaw changes, the weight and accompanying run speed reduction make it a less than attractive weapon to me.
Katana. My first and really only choice. Great attack speed, solid damage, low weight. I don't see the click-to-attack change as that big of a set back. It forces me to pay attention with the weapon, which is good.
I guess rebalancing weapons is my top priority, and it's the easiest change to make. There isn't a good progression between berzerker weapons, like there are with other weapon types. And there aren't lots of reasons to use one weapon over another. Machete needs to have a reason to be there.
Other wishes for the berzerker class:
Increase their survivability. You could do this a lot of ways, but I don't think body armor at Rank 6 really achieved that goal. You could:
-Up their base damage mitigation, rather than just increasing it at higher perk levels, so the whole perk benefits. If that means less growth of damage mitigation at higher perk levels...I'm cool with that.
-Give them more life than other perks.
-Make their armor more durable (although again, given what they do, this doesn't help much in the long run.)
-Allow them to block incoming damage. (Maybe the damage mitigation already represents this, but if it was an actual move, that would enhance the melee experience as well. Make it click to use, just like the katana.)
Lastly, enhance the melee experience. Directional melee attack animations, blocking, or perhaps moves that can be performed, like a backwards stab to kill something behind you without having to turn around. Or maybe a sweeping attack to hit multiple opponents in a frontal arc.
Lack of depth compared to the other classes. Their one-note play style. Berzerkers have the fewest viable, balanced weapon options, and the same ol' hack 'n' slash doesn't feel as deep as the gun play in KF. 'Zerkers can mix it up with different load outs, but ultimately playing a berzerker lacks depth. Berzerkers always have money to give people because they have nothing to spend it on, and little to think about.
Their ability to prevent specimen from reaching ranged players either bodily or with stuns, to group enemies for grenading/mass fire and survive long enough to repeat the process.
Their survival rate at higher difficulties near the end of the game. As the first contact against a scrake or FP in a panic situation, it's easy to die if your team isn't fully behind you. They also don't have high enough damage mitigation to hold doorways against the brunt of the wave.
Their second greatest weakness is that the class makes even good players run off alone like noobs, because they're tried of falling behind in kills staying near the team.
Knife. Wave 1 and any other waves when I, somehow, couldn't afford a better weapon.
Machete. Honestly, never. The higher damage doesn't show against 75% of the specimen, and the slower attack speed makes it less ideal than the knife. If I find one, it gets turned into cash immediately, even if all I had before was the knife.
Fire Axe. If found, or as the cheapest melee weapon I could afford. I dislike the slow attack speed because it's a liability when you're surrounded. But it has enough attack power to drop a gorefast in one body shot, which is good.
Chainsaw. If I was doing door defense, or feeling extremely lazy. The constant sound from holding down the primary fire gets old very fast and, since the patch and the chainsaw changes, the weight and accompanying run speed reduction make it a less than attractive weapon to me.
Katana. My first and really only choice. Great attack speed, solid damage, low weight. I don't see the click-to-attack change as that big of a set back. It forces me to pay attention with the weapon, which is good.
Tricky question. Husks are problematic because you have to go running to them, which can leave you vulnerable to getting swarmed if your team is camping. Scrakes and FPs if they aren't softened up enough. But since most everything is eager to hug you, I don't have trouble killing much of anything.
Clots?
Sort of outlined above. Backed up by a medic, they tank. They take the pressure off your ranged people so they can focus on killing, and cause enemies to group so they can be mowed down/blown up. Or berzerkers float, and try to stop hardened specimen from going crazy behind your lines.
Argh, just one?
I guess rebalancing weapons is my top priority, and it's the easiest change to make. There isn't a good progression between berzerker weapons, like there are with other weapon types. And there aren't lots of reasons to use one weapon over another. Machete needs to have a reason to be there.
Other wishes for the berzerker class:
Increase their survivability. You could do this a lot of ways, but I don't think body armor at Rank 6 really achieved that goal. You could:
-Up their base damage mitigation, rather than just increasing it at higher perk levels, so the whole perk benefits. If that means less growth of damage mitigation at higher perk levels...I'm cool with that.
-Give them more life than other perks.
-Make their armor more durable (although again, given what they do, this doesn't help much in the long run.)
-Allow them to block incoming damage. (Maybe the damage mitigation already represents this, but if it was an actual move, that would enhance the melee experience as well. Make it click to use, just like the katana.)
Lastly, enhance the melee experience. Directional melee attack animations, blocking, or perhaps moves that can be performed, like a backwards stab to kill something behind you without having to turn around. Or maybe a sweeping attack to hit multiple opponents in a frontal arc.
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I kind of like the idea of blocking for a big boost to damage resistance against melee attacks, but that's a tricky solution. It would definitely help against solo big zeds (because you could anticipate, block, then counterattack), but it would do nothing to help with crowd control- as you wouldn't have enough time to counterattack between incoming attacks when facing a crowd. Most lesser specimens attack pretty quickly, so you'd be faced with purely blocking (accomplishing nothing besides slowing 'em down) or purely attacking. While block-tanking would have some usefulness, it does not earn the name "Berserker" by itself in my opinion.
Here's a modification to the idea: as you block attacks, you build up a temporary damage bonus- letting you free the beast all over your enemies.
Nenjin's suggestions for bringing the perk back into line are all pretty sound.
In any case, it would be really nice to have some moves just to vary the experience.
Plus, I could look at my fellow zerkers and say...
SHOW ME YA MOVES!
[W + Power Attack] FALCON...PAWNCH!!!
Here's a modification to the idea: as you block attacks, you build up a temporary damage bonus- letting you free the beast all over your enemies.
Nenjin's suggestions for bringing the perk back into line are all pretty sound.
In any case, it would be really nice to have some moves just to vary the experience.
Plus, I could look at my fellow zerkers and say...
SHOW ME YA MOVES!
[W + Power Attack] FALCON...PAWNCH!!!
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Two suggestions.
1. "Berserk rage / adrenaline rush"
Increase Berserker's damage resistance, melee damage, melee speed and movement speed as he loses health. Huge increase when he reaches critical. Also make Berserk regenerate health while critical.
I might be completely off here, but I feel like this is the way berserker should be. Numbers can be easily tuned to control the balance of this "zerger mode".
2. Fix the existing weapons
Add some variety to his existing weapons to make them more fun & useful.
1. "Berserk rage / adrenaline rush"
Increase Berserker's damage resistance, melee damage, melee speed and movement speed as he loses health. Huge increase when he reaches critical. Also make Berserk regenerate health while critical.
I might be completely off here, but I feel like this is the way berserker should be. Numbers can be easily tuned to control the balance of this "zerger mode".
2. Fix the existing weapons
Add some variety to his existing weapons to make them more fun & useful.
If you look again at the progression, the reduced movement penalty from damage wouldn't help a ton until you get to level 6:
Berserker
0 N/A
1 20% less movement penalty
2 40% less movement penalty
3 60% less movement penalty
4 80% less movement penalty
5 No movement penalty
6 No movement penalty + 10% melee movement + 10% damage resistance at 50% health
When you get to level 6, you get a big boost at 50% health, not at 25% where the movement penalty would be significant. Increased speed and damage resistance would give you increased longevity, but being at 50% is always dangerous on suicidal. With suicidal difficulty, a zerk would not want to "stay" at 50% to use use the boost, rather it would come in handy for quick escapes whenever it's needed. It wouldn't help much if the zerk gets surrounded, but the added mobility would give him the edge to outmaneuver the zeds when he gets hurt.
Maybe the numbers should be buffed slightly so zerk gets +10% movement and damage resistance at level 5, and 20% at lvl 6. Perhaps at level 6 the boost would take effect at 75% health...
EDIT: my original suggestion is definitely conservative, but would be a step in the right direction. Giving a lvl 6 zerk +20% movement speed and +20% damage resistance when he's below 75% health would be pretty huge. Throwing in faster attack speed would really be cool, but a damage boost probably isn't necessary with a katana since most things go down with one slash anyway at high levels.
I think a passive increase in effectiveness, activated after taking damage, is more useful, less cheesy and less "RPG-like" than having some kind of power-up system which is activated at will.
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Don't get me wrong: I appreciate your thought-out suggestions, and they would help, but... being able to fall back better doesn't really help you keep the horde away from the team.
I mean...look at it this way: When most perks are at their effective attack range- they're almost 100% safe since most zeds are melee. When a berserker is at their effective attack range- they're almost 100% guaranteed to be taking damage.
I think it'd be pretty fair if zerkers had very high resist to melee damage- like 50% or higher all the time- but took normal damage from everything else but bloat bile. In melee, pretty safe, at range: pretty vulnerable. Exact opposite of all the ranged perks.
I mean...look at it this way: When most perks are at their effective attack range- they're almost 100% safe since most zeds are melee. When a berserker is at their effective attack range- they're almost 100% guaranteed to be taking damage.
I think it'd be pretty fair if zerkers had very high resist to melee damage- like 50% or higher all the time- but took normal damage from everything else but bloat bile. In melee, pretty safe, at range: pretty vulnerable. Exact opposite of all the ranged perks.
I agree that zerks should have more resistance since they're supposed to be meat shields, and with the new weapons they need to push farther into zombie territory to be useful. I just proposed conservative numbers to be more in line with the current resistance levels.
I'd really like to see a more aggressive boost when the zerk is hurt, like 20% resistance increase at lvl 6 (on top of the lvl 6 zerk resistance of 25% = 45%) when the zerk has less than 50% or 75% health. A 10% melee movement boost would also make him faster (30%) than a lvl 6 medic (+25%).
I'd rather have a stronger buff like this (that only triggers after taking hits i.e. when you need it) than a persistant modest buff.
I'd really like to see a more aggressive boost when the zerk is hurt, like 20% resistance increase at lvl 6 (on top of the lvl 6 zerk resistance of 25% = 45%) when the zerk has less than 50% or 75% health. A 10% melee movement boost would also make him faster (30%) than a lvl 6 medic (+25%).
I'd rather have a stronger buff like this (that only triggers after taking hits i.e. when you need it) than a persistant modest buff.
I'm glad we could have a somewhat civil dialog. Thankyou.My objection with the proposed tiered increase upon reaching X% hitpoints is that , in practice, its going to be tricky to anticipate how tough you currently are. "Hmmm...can I take that hit or can't I? Should I fall back for now or am I good to keep going? Let me take a quick look at my hp...did that gorefast just now drop me past X?"
While that concept somewhat tickles my fancy as a chance for an expansion of player expertise, it could also be somewhat distracting and unpredictable.
In any case, if a bonus is going to kick in at a mere 50 hitpoints, it had better be rock solid, undeniably, awesome- reaching a total reduction of 50% or more.
Perhaps at 50% health you hit 50% resist (+25% over base) and at 25% health you hit 75% resist.
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Yeah, that's a good idea, give the zerk a progressively better resistance/speed boost the lower his health gets, with a smaller boost at 75% health than at 50% etc. The smaller the increments, the less he has to worry about being under a given health, and the more gradual his movement speed would increase (if applicable), thus preventing sudden jumps which could cause him to mis-time a swing.
Make his health and resistance/speed boosts inverse proportional.
Make his health and resistance/speed boosts inverse proportional.
My objection with the proposed tiered increase upon reaching X% hitpoints is that , in practice, its going to be tricky to anticipate how tough you currently are. "Hmmm...can I take that hit or can't I? Should I fall back for now or am I good to keep going? Let me take a quick look at my hp...did that gorefast just now drop me past X?"
While that concept somewhat tickles my fancy as a chance for an expansion of player expertise, it could also be somewhat distracting and unpredictable.
In any case, if a bonus is going to kick in at a mere 50 hitpoints, it had better be rock solid, undeniably, awesome- reaching a total reduction of 50% or more.
Perhaps at 50% health you hit 50% resist (+25% over base) and at 25% health you hit 75% resist.
Like the idea, but with the idea of dealing more damage and having this be OP, or no. I just thinking its sounds about right that they can deal more damage also and take more damge with health loss. So health loss can increase your perk abiities by X% (25% health = 75% increase in Resisst/damage reduction and Melee damage increase)
Bleh. BENEFITS to having low health are never that great, IMO, compared to the risk. I'd rather they simply make Berserker better as is without having to make you get mauled half to death before you do decent damage!
Besides, there is one BIG thing that would interfere with it: Healspamming medics...
I can already see the "Stop healing me! I'm going for half health for more damage!" from the Zerker
And the simple response of "No, you're getting healed" by the medic...
Besides, there is one BIG thing that would interfere with it: Healspamming medics...
I can already see the "Stop healing me! I'm going for half health for more damage!" from the Zerker
And the simple response of "No, you're getting healed" by the medic...
- Since the "Level Up" content patch, what is the biggest problem you currently have with the Berserker perk?
- What do you view as the Berserker's biggest Strength?
- What do you view as the Berserker's biggest Weakness?
- What situations do you find yourself using the following weapons?
Machete only on round one if found.
Fire Axe, late join, found early.
Chainsaw untill I figured it can't even kill clots convineatly with primary attack. Never.
Katana, whenever I can pay.
- What specimens do you find you have the most trouble killing?
- What specimens do you find you have the least trouble killing?
- What would you say the Berserker's role is in the team aspect of the game?
- If you could change ONE thing about the game to make playing a Berserker more enjoyable, what would it be?
Note; I'm not a dedicated Berserker.
*Three clots standing side to side, you aim at the middle and you stun/damage all three of them.
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I see the increased resiliency after getting hurt coming into play more when you really need it in a bad way. Medic heal is great, but it won't usually save somebody from a bad situation, in my experience. That isn't a cut against medics- lemme tell you I've played with some flat-out amazing medics- but more due to the heal-over-time nature of the healing they provide.
Both giving a static, out-of-the-gate bonus and an increasing bonus the lower you get add staying power, which is good. I can't lie, though- chopping triumphantly through the last bastard with a massive resist-all and only 10 hitpoints left sounds pretty cinematic/awesome to me.
Both giving a static, out-of-the-gate bonus and an increasing bonus the lower you get add staying power, which is good. I can't lie, though- chopping triumphantly through the last bastard with a massive resist-all and only 10 hitpoints left sounds pretty cinematic/awesome to me.
Basically this, especially the first paragraph.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the class itself, I think that the weapons need some work though. I'll just copy and paste from my other thread, since it seems no one read that.
I dunno about axe as the AoE weapon...Katana with the AoE slice makes more sense to me.
The axe strikes me more as- AUUUUUUUUUUGH *connection lost*
...lulz. Anyways, axe more as the 2nd-tier single-target devastator. As much or more big damage per hit as any other melee weapon, but at the cost of speed. Chainsaw then as the next-tier axe upgrade: even more damage with even more speed/crowd control.
The axe strikes me more as- AUUUUUUUUUUGH *connection lost*
...lulz. Anyways, axe more as the 2nd-tier single-target devastator. As much or more big damage per hit as any other melee weapon, but at the cost of speed. Chainsaw then as the next-tier axe upgrade: even more damage with even more speed/crowd control.
why not allow the axe to be capable of dropping a FP using two altfire strikes..gives a reason to actually hold onto the axe...how many strikes to kill could of course be made dependent on your level....at present im a level 3 zerker and i usually spot FPs inbound but then move back away as usually they take me down...i did not play KF before they say the perk was nerfed so i have no comparison..what i do find that is challenging to me as a zerker is trying to find a niche to best support the team...
That's not a bad idea. Perhaps make the axe have higher damage than the Katana to compensate for its swing speed, and it could be the Berserker's Fleshpound Killer.
Good dialogue going on so far.