So much this ^^
Most of my friends will not touch KF2 as long as it has the EA tag associated with it...
Lets talk about KF2's monthly player base.
- Thread starter OohItzMArio
- Start date
So much this ^^
Most of my friends will not touch KF2 as long as it has the EA tag associated with it...
I can't blame people who have stopped playing KF2. I stopped too and I play rocket league instead...
This is just logical. At the beginning, there was hype. People buy, play it, and then wait. Now, the wait is longer than everyone was expecting.
With only 4 perks, and three maps, people get bored fast.
Five months latter, 2 news perks + berserkser overhaul, people come back, get bored and stop.
3 months latter; 1 new perk, Gunslinger (at least gunslinger was good from the start)
3 months latter : Nothing... No information regarding skill and weapon. Nothing (except : sharpshooter is the next and we will have LAR and crossbow).
So, basically, too much time between update makes people bored.
Also, some small fixes asked a long time ago are still not done.
Finally, even though we got 7 perks currently (same as KF1), because there is so little weapon for each perk, you don't have too much choice in loadout. In KF1, with 7 perks, you could have 14 different and viable load-out.
This is just logical. At the beginning, there was hype. People buy, play it, and then wait. Now, the wait is longer than everyone was expecting.
With only 4 perks, and three maps, people get bored fast.
Five months latter, 2 news perks + berserkser overhaul, people come back, get bored and stop.
3 months latter; 1 new perk, Gunslinger (at least gunslinger was good from the start)
3 months latter : Nothing... No information regarding skill and weapon. Nothing (except : sharpshooter is the next and we will have LAR and crossbow).
So, basically, too much time between update makes people bored.
Also, some small fixes asked a long time ago are still not done.
Finally, even though we got 7 perks currently (same as KF1), because there is so little weapon for each perk, you don't have too much choice in loadout. In KF1, with 7 perks, you could have 14 different and viable load-out.
I don't think I can tell you about thousands of people but I can still tell you why I'm far less interested in KF2 than I was in KF1.
It is not tactical enough anymore, simply put.
Specimens trash around wildly, the chances of getting consistent headshots is nearly nil and I find the tactical/theorycraft loadout part of the first game has simply vanished in favor of something more instinctive.
And it does not work because it keep the tactical trappings of the first and that hold it back.
If the weapons and the monsters were spectacular then it would be a joyfull clickfest and there would be nothing wrong with that (despite a probably shortened life expectancy for the game).
But actually it's not tactical enough to be intellectually satisfying and not hollywoodian enough to be emotionally satisfying; in both domain it's half-there without really going anywhere, so in the end I feel like I've been left stranded.
It feels like KF2's behind is akwardly sitting on 2 chairs at the same time without really being on any of them.
It is not tactical enough anymore, simply put.
Specimens trash around wildly, the chances of getting consistent headshots is nearly nil and I find the tactical/theorycraft loadout part of the first game has simply vanished in favor of something more instinctive.
And it does not work because it keep the tactical trappings of the first and that hold it back.
If the weapons and the monsters were spectacular then it would be a joyfull clickfest and there would be nothing wrong with that (despite a probably shortened life expectancy for the game).
But actually it's not tactical enough to be intellectually satisfying and not hollywoodian enough to be emotionally satisfying; in both domain it's half-there without really going anywhere, so in the end I feel like I've been left stranded.
It feels like KF2's behind is akwardly sitting on 2 chairs at the same time without really being on any of them.
How I feel summed up really well. I feel like KF is trying to be that KF1 niche game and a AAA game at the same time and it's not working great. Old fans miss the "barebones" gameplay where let's face it, nothing was holding your hand. And the general public, I'm not sure they will stay hooked to the game for a long time.
Personnally, I've stopped since the gunslinger update. Not enough content. I don't blame TWI for this, I know that's how it works.
But I blame TWI for being slow as hell. I'm not in their office, I don't know anything about their work schedules and staff, but TWI seems either :
A) Not efficient enough
B) Understaffed
C) Priorities are not met
A perk every 3 months is too slow. Way too slow. By the time the game is released in full, it will already be quite old. Ironically, the day the game is released in full might be, in other words, the day they stop working on it.
Lack of feedback from devs is also quite sad. Lack of news too. TWI has their hands full no doubt, but I'm wondering now if they are maybe a bit too full ?
I would have to disagree. Both with your assessment and findings.
When you say the tactical aspect of KF1 what you mean is the limited 1-dimensional mechanics - which when learnt made the game a walk in the park.
As for not being able to line-up headshots.... thats not tactical enough for you? I find that a very good challenge tbh. Even as a shotgunner. The trick is not to stand in one spot and not necessarily pick off the four zeds marching in a line like in KF1, where you could do both.
I think its interesting that you say its not tactical enough to be intellectually stimulating if just plain wrong. From my limited understanding of human psychology I think gamers find intellectual stimulation from whatever they want to. And there are enough tactical challenges depending on many factors already: perk played, level, skills chosen, map, difficulty, weapons held, zeds faced and ofc the biggest one the people you play with.
Sure if you play with the same ppl it does end up becoming a groundhog day game alot of the time but if you jump into a pub game with ppl youve never played with you learn alot about yourself, your knowledge of the game, you own abilities and what I would personally define as the most intellectual challenge of all.... how to overcome against the odds when your team **** up!
But this post isnt having a dig.... far from it. I know many players from KF1 who just dont play KF2 at all. And I would bet in some way for some if not all the reason you state.
Personally I would say that the greatest draw of KF1 was to enable self-ego boosting with ppl able to walk all over HoE (even with faked players) and "play" with the boss at the end. From my experience of playing 2000+ hours it was this ability that KF1 was popular. Something that hasnt quite been replicated yet because of the "less predictable" mechanics in game. Something which I personally find fresh and keeps me playing. As long as TW allow for some way of recovering from a mistake, even if its not 100% sure.
I just hope the building on top of what they have becomes faster and doesnt take away from the unpredictability of the gaming experience.
Just my 2cents ofc!
KF2 is not in the top 100 games played on STeam. The average player stats show how many are playing.
Pick ANY game on the top 100 list and people will tell you
- don't have time to play everyday
- play for a while then stop for a while
- have real life stuff , girlfriend, kids, job
- play other games
- was abducted by aliens
- working on taxes
Every single game has players who don't play for those same reasons, they are NOT UNIQUE to KF 2.
But what the top 100 games have is a lot of players WHO DO PLAY. So common excuses are irrelevant unless you believe that everyone who plays L4D2 does not have a single of those issues.
==============================================
Study done by Steam showed games in Early Access reached peak user levels while still in Early Access and gained no significant increase in sales or daily players after full retail release.
10 months into KF 2 and it can't sustain a player base high enough to be in the top 100 when KF 1 was in the top 50 on a regular basis.
Its not because you can't play everyday, play other games, have real life stuff. All games have players that struggle with those issues.
- teleportation
- FP rage mechanics
- autorage
- major balancing issues
- very, very, very slow updates
- very little content
- introduction of additional monetization methods while still in Early Access
- welding is useless
- perks are mostly bland, and uniform instead of very specific strengths and weaknesses like in KF 1
Spikes relate to free weekends and major updates. Throw away free weekends because you will get a lot of people who don't own the game trying it. If you just look at the spikes during major updates and then the immediate crash, its cause for worry.
Pick ANY game on the top 100 list and people will tell you
- don't have time to play everyday
- play for a while then stop for a while
- have real life stuff , girlfriend, kids, job
- play other games
- was abducted by aliens
- working on taxes
Every single game has players who don't play for those same reasons, they are NOT UNIQUE to KF 2.
But what the top 100 games have is a lot of players WHO DO PLAY. So common excuses are irrelevant unless you believe that everyone who plays L4D2 does not have a single of those issues.
==============================================
Study done by Steam showed games in Early Access reached peak user levels while still in Early Access and gained no significant increase in sales or daily players after full retail release.
10 months into KF 2 and it can't sustain a player base high enough to be in the top 100 when KF 1 was in the top 50 on a regular basis.
Its not because you can't play everyday, play other games, have real life stuff. All games have players that struggle with those issues.
- teleportation
- FP rage mechanics
- autorage
- major balancing issues
- very, very, very slow updates
- very little content
- introduction of additional monetization methods while still in Early Access
- welding is useless
- perks are mostly bland, and uniform instead of very specific strengths and weaknesses like in KF 1
Spikes relate to free weekends and major updates. Throw away free weekends because you will get a lot of people who don't own the game trying it. If you just look at the spikes during major updates and then the immediate crash, its cause for worry.
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Pretty sure the vast majority of people who are interested in this game already bought it. I don't know anyone who wouldn't buy a game simply because it's in EA but then dump 100s of hours into it once it's released. I'm sure there are a few but c'mon. It's not like there's this army of hardcore players out there just itching for the full release.
I'd bet that the numbers we are seeing now are very representative of where they will be once the release hype dies down. I'd love for them to release a crapton of awesome content and prove me wrong though.
I'd bet that the numbers we are seeing now are very representative of where they will be once the release hype dies down. I'd love for them to release a crapton of awesome content and prove me wrong though.
Or it could be like me, where I got a new job which is opposite of my friends and family that plays this game. So since we don't all get together as much, they don't play KF2 either much at all.
It is a game I really miss, and I try coordinate as many nights as possible with my team to play.
HoE is no fun without a team that wants to work together. You get too many lvl 10s or even worse people who power level and have no clue how to play on HoE.
For this reason, I always password protect my server - morale of the story: I only play when I can play with my friends all at once.
It is a game I really miss, and I try coordinate as many nights as possible with my team to play.
HoE is no fun without a team that wants to work together. You get too many lvl 10s or even worse people who power level and have no clue how to play on HoE.
For this reason, I always password protect my server - morale of the story: I only play when I can play with my friends all at once.
And I mean, there are issues like...KF2 costs a lot more than KF1 did for the past few years (I myself got onto the KF1 bandwagon in like, 2011, I think? And I only got it cause it was cheap).
Also, there are a number players who were part of the consistent KF1 numbers who dislike KF2 (for any one of a number of reasons). They stayed with KF1, and do not put in time with KF2.
I feel like it's foolhardy to have presumed that the numbers from KF1 would have 1 for 1, transferred over to KF2. There are so many reasons that go into that, that aren't even necessarily related to quality issues of KF2.
I mean, just above me, it's possible that times have just changed for many gamers. And new gamers may not have immediately gravitated towards KF2 for whatever reason, reasonable or unreasonable. And it's still in early access. The other guy a few posts above made a good point. The vast majority of people already interested have bought it...but of course these are the people that were really into KF1, which again, may have stayed with KF1, for a ton of reasons.
I dunno, I'm just spitballing. Basically, I'm suggesting that perhaps these presumptive evaluations of the data are misguided. I'm not suggesting that KF2 monthly player base is on the slow side.
I'm just saying...what are we expecting and what do we want? I can tell you that at any time of time (and I do play at random times during the day and night lol)...I have tons of choices for rooms, that have ppl in them. And this is excluding the rooms that I can't get into because they are full.
But that's just me as an individual player. I consider myself a big pc gamer, esp not a multiplayer gamer, but KF1 and now KF2 are my most played games on steam. And I'm not dissatisfied with the population that I encounter.
Also, there are a number players who were part of the consistent KF1 numbers who dislike KF2 (for any one of a number of reasons). They stayed with KF1, and do not put in time with KF2.
I feel like it's foolhardy to have presumed that the numbers from KF1 would have 1 for 1, transferred over to KF2. There are so many reasons that go into that, that aren't even necessarily related to quality issues of KF2.
I mean, just above me, it's possible that times have just changed for many gamers. And new gamers may not have immediately gravitated towards KF2 for whatever reason, reasonable or unreasonable. And it's still in early access. The other guy a few posts above made a good point. The vast majority of people already interested have bought it...but of course these are the people that were really into KF1, which again, may have stayed with KF1, for a ton of reasons.
I dunno, I'm just spitballing. Basically, I'm suggesting that perhaps these presumptive evaluations of the data are misguided. I'm not suggesting that KF2 monthly player base is on the slow side.
I'm just saying...what are we expecting and what do we want? I can tell you that at any time of time (and I do play at random times during the day and night lol)...I have tons of choices for rooms, that have ppl in them. And this is excluding the rooms that I can't get into because they are full.
But that's just me as an individual player. I consider myself a big pc gamer, esp not a multiplayer gamer, but KF1 and now KF2 are my most played games on steam. And I'm not dissatisfied with the population that I encounter.
Care to provide a source on this? KF1 had such absurd spiking on holidays that I'm not inclined to believe that it was on the 50 consistently; the dissonance was THAT high between a normal day and the start of an event.
Also: What are we actually discussing here? Are we worrying about not being able to find populated servers? What is the point of this thread?
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It's because slow updates. The playerbase gets bored when you play all the time with 7 perks ,but only like what 4 weapons for each perk and less maps to play on.
And upcorse some people do not want to play this game until a new big update comes out which hopefully will be soon. We had 2 WWAUT's that were 2 weeks apart which is accurate to what devs said about WWAUT.We will hopefully see another one next week.
Sharpshooter does have less information ,but however someone find some code for the third weapon and yeah I could say sharpshooter is almost done,but not really.
However the KF2 steam discussion community believes that the slow updates are because of Zedeconomy...and upcorse it's still total cancer
And upcorse some people do not want to play this game until a new big update comes out which hopefully will be soon. We had 2 WWAUT's that were 2 weeks apart which is accurate to what devs said about WWAUT.We will hopefully see another one next week.
Sharpshooter does have less information ,but however someone find some code for the third weapon and yeah I could say sharpshooter is almost done,but not really.
However the KF2 steam discussion community believes that the slow updates are because of Zedeconomy...and upcorse it's still total cancer
I don't see it that dramatically. Considered how half baked that early access still is, it is doing surprizingly good regarding player quantity.
What I often hear is the game is too "hard". Sure, go play normal you say, normal is super boring. What I think people often mean by hard is, money is scarce, dying is catastrophic. Id like to see lvl discounts come back, at lvl 25 perk weapons should be 30% off or something to that effect.
My point is, the game should punish you with zeds, not these aggravating mechanics meant to punish the player. Its aggravating to not be able to afford ammo and a wave appropriate weapon, sure they should not be granted, but one mistake shouldn't end the game for you. KF had this balance correct imo.
My point is, the game should punish you with zeds, not these aggravating mechanics meant to punish the player. Its aggravating to not be able to afford ammo and a wave appropriate weapon, sure they should not be granted, but one mistake shouldn't end the game for you. KF had this balance correct imo.
^quick interjection.
I think lvl discounts would be a mistake. Not only did KF1 forced the player to class-hop (an aggravating mechanic) in order to obtain reasonable weapon pricing, but it was more difficult to afford guns at lower levels.
KF2 is doing right imo to allow more diverse loadouts without having to finagle classes just to do so.
I think lvl discounts would be a mistake. Not only did KF1 forced the player to class-hop (an aggravating mechanic) in order to obtain reasonable weapon pricing, but it was more difficult to afford guns at lower levels.
KF2 is doing right imo to allow more diverse loadouts without having to finagle classes just to do so.
I hate to say it but a) what youre talking about is balance and b) its in EA. Well it is. Im sure if your point warrants it, it will be changed at some point.
Though personally I dont see money is ever a problem. Even if you die or come in late. Depends on the server and ppl you are playing with though.
And I find learning to play with minimal weaponry is another challenging tactical aspect that keeps my skills in the game at a good level. Afterall getting the right money is great and all but on the occasions things go wrong you have to be able to recover. If you cant well then maybe you are not so good. Also if you are having money problems on Sui or less then Im guessing your problems arent going to be solved by increasing the amounts you receive!
False, with a large abundance of money, players will be able to play with less restrictions and thus have more fun. The current dosh economy is a perfect example of Tripwire being clueless about balancing. The incessant need to balance the dosh economy has essentially made playing demolition and support specialist virtually impossible without begging team mates for dosh upon death or to stay relevant on the team in terms of damage output.
The dosh economy is the reason why nobody with a brain will play anything but the most economically advantageous perks on wave 1, which are berserker, gunslingers, and firebugs.
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I'll toss in a few thoughts here, take them as you will:
Many of those are in various stages of development and some aren't very firm and are subject to change, be axed and redeveloped or any number of things so we don't talk about them too early. In a WWAUT posted earlier this year we committed to faster updates and we've had several out with another on the way. But these focus on bug fixes and smaller changes while we work on longer term balance changes and new content.
- In terms of KF 1 to KF 2 life-cycle KF 2 is tracking well and is healthy
- The game environment on Steam is not the same
- Last year more games released on steam than all the current previous games on Steam combined if I remember a recent article on the subject correctly
- When RO 1 or KF 1 launched the top played games on steam had thousands of players in a day, now the top played games have peaks of hundreds of thousands of players per day if not millions of unique players across the day
- Content is being created as fast as it can be for KF 2 and will be continued to do so for quite some time based on current plans for post launch.
- We learned hard lessons on overworking and crunch and do not do those except in the most extreme cases
- We are limited by the number of staff we have and we have reached the capacity for the building we are in plus or minus a few people as we have the usual churn (our churn is much lower than the industry average!)
- Lots of people want different things to add spice to KF 2 and increase their enjoyment with it or bring them back and we are pushing ahead on many of those fronts - In terms of content those include:
- New Maps
- New Perks
- New Weapons
- New Gamemodes
- New Zeds/Bosses
- Seasonal/Special events
Many of those are in various stages of development and some aren't very firm and are subject to change, be axed and redeveloped or any number of things so we don't talk about them too early. In a WWAUT posted earlier this year we committed to faster updates and we've had several out with another on the way. But these focus on bug fixes and smaller changes while we work on longer term balance changes and new content.
I was about to post about the top 50/top 100 thing by saying:
KF1's appid - 1250
KF2's appid - 232090
top 50 for 1250 games = 4% of all games.
top 100 for 232090 games = 0.04% of all games.
I'd like to think that the excuse of having more games to play is a valid thought of it not being in the top 100. A lot of the games in the top are purposely single player, free2play or have a pvp aspect.
Kf1 was unique in that it was a coop survival arena shooter, it doesn't surprise me that it would be able to keep a top position for a long time when you don't have many games that complete against it (on the steam platform).
KF2 doesn't necessarily change much in the genre and it's fighting for a top position against ~186x times the number of games available (probably much higher now).
With no disrespect to TWI, to assume that a similar genre game would be able to maintain a top level played statistic on steam overall for what's now about 10 months is a bit crazy. Nothing to do with MT as Payday 2 is on the top 100 and has been out for longer, and it's not the fact that it's a zombie shooter since the valve games are on there as well. It's just that this type of game is not the type of game that I listed above (flatout single player, free 2 play or a game with a pvp aspect). What I've noted just about gaming communities as a whole is that trash talking is a thing, if you can't call each other a noob, a scrub, plz uninstall, or gitgud then it isn't a game. The cooperative or teamplay aspect is literally non-existent in public gameplay.
That's why, deep down inside I would love to see what little community exists in the KF2 community here to openly get together and help each other/new players out. I've said some awful stuff and introduced a lot of the community to the door BSK'ing, which I'm ashamed of, but some of the best feelings to get in a public game is when a player sees how effective a SC decap via EMP is for the very first time. Or when I had a level 12 COM player in HoE just cover me on trash for a side that we were holding and had him solo hold when I had to assist with SC decaps. I think that, feelings like these and leaving a good impression for people that hop in and play this game will provoke more people to come back to play. Right now, if I owned the game and took a look in the steam forums for a quick opinion to buy I wouldn't even bother.
KF1's appid - 1250
KF2's appid - 232090
top 50 for 1250 games = 4% of all games.
top 100 for 232090 games = 0.04% of all games.
I'd like to think that the excuse of having more games to play is a valid thought of it not being in the top 100. A lot of the games in the top are purposely single player, free2play or have a pvp aspect.
Kf1 was unique in that it was a coop survival arena shooter, it doesn't surprise me that it would be able to keep a top position for a long time when you don't have many games that complete against it (on the steam platform).
KF2 doesn't necessarily change much in the genre and it's fighting for a top position against ~186x times the number of games available (probably much higher now).
With no disrespect to TWI, to assume that a similar genre game would be able to maintain a top level played statistic on steam overall for what's now about 10 months is a bit crazy. Nothing to do with MT as Payday 2 is on the top 100 and has been out for longer, and it's not the fact that it's a zombie shooter since the valve games are on there as well. It's just that this type of game is not the type of game that I listed above (flatout single player, free 2 play or a game with a pvp aspect). What I've noted just about gaming communities as a whole is that trash talking is a thing, if you can't call each other a noob, a scrub, plz uninstall, or gitgud then it isn't a game. The cooperative or teamplay aspect is literally non-existent in public gameplay.
That's why, deep down inside I would love to see what little community exists in the KF2 community here to openly get together and help each other/new players out. I've said some awful stuff and introduced a lot of the community to the door BSK'ing, which I'm ashamed of, but some of the best feelings to get in a public game is when a player sees how effective a SC decap via EMP is for the very first time. Or when I had a level 12 COM player in HoE just cover me on trash for a side that we were holding and had him solo hold when I had to assist with SC decaps. I think that, feelings like these and leaving a good impression for people that hop in and play this game will provoke more people to come back to play. Right now, if I owned the game and took a look in the steam forums for a quick opinion to buy I wouldn't even bother.