Let MAC-10 damage level Firebug

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Litestrider

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 7, 2010
8
7
0
Currently, MAC-10 bullet damage doesn't count toward leveling the Firebug perk. I think this should be changed, for a few reasons.

First and foremost, it promotes bad play. A firebug should be using the MAC-10 to pop heads for quicker kills, or to spray specimens for quicker kills. These tactics, however, give you less burn damage. You're actively encouraged to plug a single bullet into the gut and let them burn out, because you get more damage toward your perk for doing it. It will never be a perfect system, but I think perk leveling should encourage smart play as much as possible.

Second, off-classing. Firebug is currently by far the least practical perk to level while not actively playing it. The flamethrower is very heavy, and a very poor weapon in the hands of any non-firebug thanks to the perk itself getting a buff as opposed to the weapon. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I quite like the MAC-10 as a backup weapon. I have few problems with its high recoil at close range, and it's a decent all-round weapon. I'd find myself using it all the time if it weren't for the fact that it didn't level any perk when you use it.

Third, on a similar note, when it's not in the hands of a firebug it's the only weapon that doesn't contribute to any perk experience in any way. Even the MP7M has the needle launcher, which is perfectly usable in the hands of a non-medic.

On the subject of the MP7M, am I alone in thinking the weapon itself should be considered a Commando weapon? Perhaps not gaining the full bonuses from the perk, but at least contributing experience toward it. I'm actively discouraged from shooting the MP7M over a shotgun, bullpup or anything but the MAC-10, and I don't like that because I enjoy the weapon immensely.
 

C_Gibby

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 18, 2010
7,220
2,716
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I'm gonna say no.

I use the MAC 10 a lot as a non-firebug. There is no fire damage when you're not playing firebug, so If bullet damage were to count towards the firebug, everyone will powerlevel firebug without even playing it.
 

Litestrider

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 7, 2010
8
7
0
Couldn't the same be said for the AK-47, shotgun, LAR, and any other weapon used off-perk?

I know I've leveled sharpshooter while playing berserker, and demolitions while playing firebug, and support while playing demolitions.

Between the increased damage, larger clip, faster reload, and fire damage, if you wanted to powerlevel firebug, you'd still definitely do it as firebug.
 

Ionik1974

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 22, 2010
33
18
0
This is a normal weapon which doesnt shoot any fire and this is the reason why you shouldnt level the firebug with it.

That the weapon sets enemies on fire through firing one shot when playing as Firebug ist also stupid.

The weapon don't fit for the firebug perk, a molotov or a welding torch would make the perk more usefull. The welding torch can be used as a close combat weapon without the possibility to cut off any bodyparts.
 

Litestrider

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 7, 2010
8
7
0
But those are arguments against the weapon in general, not against it leveling the firebug perk.

If it were simply changed graphically so the bullets had flaming trails, would it suddenly become okay to level firebug with?

I just see it as a bad thing to have weapons which encourage bad play, and which don't level any perk to use them.
 

Vaecrius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 2, 2010
633
131
0
Burnaby, BC
members.shaw.ca
In theory, as a matter of consistency, I kinda agree with Litestrider. After all, anyone can pick up a dropped medgun and heal people... but then, it's only the firebug who gets qualitatively different weapon behaviours just for being the firebug, and the Mac-10 behaviour is consistent with that.

Could there be some way to track when a player has caused a zed to be set on fire due to environmental hazards or husks targeting them?
 

Salad Snake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 2, 2010
875
148
0
33
Honolulu, Hawaii
I fully agree with OP. It is woefully inefficient to level Firebug as a non-Firebug compared to leveling the other perks off-perk. I think both arguments against it are being overly technical and not attacking the actual argument OP makes. Yeah, it doesn't really make sense, but it is being consistent to have Mac dmg level Firebug.



I would say that if the lack of burning leveling Firebug bothers you that much the Mac should then light enemies even unperked, it should simply take more bullets to do it. For example, a non-perk must cause X amount of damage with the Mac to light an enemy, or hit with X number of incendiary Mac rounds to successfully light an enemy. For a level 0 Firebug it should take considerably less Mac dmg or hits to light an enemy, and for level 2-3 and above it should only take 1 bullet.
 

Evilsod

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 20, 2009
883
137
0
Ylivieska, Finland
Or better yet you could use the Flamethrower and Incendiary Grenades?

Noone is making you use the Mac 10 if you want to level Firebug. Just like how noone makes you use a Bullpup to kill Stalkers while playing Berserkers, it you really wanted to you'd use a Flamethrower, just because the Mac10 is lighter doesn't mean it should also work.
 
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Vaecrius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 2, 2010
633
131
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Burnaby, BC
members.shaw.ca
it's just that the flamethrower costs so much, takes up so much space, slows you down so much, and is so weak off-perk that to try to level it off-perk can pretty seriously hurt your effectiveness. (Unless you are very good - I recently saw a medic on WestLondon (Hard) nearly solo his way out of a six-man wave 8 using dead teammates' spares. But even then he ran out of flamethrower ammo long before he or most of the wave died.) Meanwhile medics and berserkers have little to lose using, say, the bullpup, LAR, or shotgun off-perk.

I really like Snake's idea, though - give the Mac a chance at lighting stuff that only happens to go up with firebug levels.
 

CA_Hiro

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 20, 2009
176
23
0
29
Denmark
Or better yet you could use the Flamethrower and Incendiary Grenades?

Noone is making you use the Mac 10 if you want to level Firebug. Just like how noone makes you use a Bullpup to kill Stalkers while playing Berserkers, it you really wanted to you'd use a Flamethrower, just because the Mac10 is lighter doesn't mean it should also work.

My first impression is "They just added a new weapon, and I don't care if it doesn't work properly, just as long as I can argue with people", but then I actually red some of it through again and I agree with some of it.

You are right that noone is forcing you to use an bullpup to kill stalkers, while being off-perk, but then again. Like other weapons, you should being able to get experience as firebug, like you do with pretty much every single weapon. EXCEPT the Mac-10.

Make it so the Firebug has to kill a specific amount of crawlers with either the Flamethrower/Incendiary Nade/Mac-10, then it would make more sense to me.
 

Salad Snake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 2, 2010
875
148
0
33
Honolulu, Hawaii
Or better yet you could use the Flamethrower and Incendiary Grenades?

Noone is making you use the Mac 10 if you want to level Firebug. Just like how noone makes you use a Bullpup to kill Stalkers while playing Berserkers, it you really wanted to you'd use a Flamethrower, just because the Mac10 is lighter doesn't mean it should also work.

Except that you can't use Incendiary Grenades off-perk. And this topic is basically about how the Mac should be the easy way to level Firebug off-perk (like every other Perk has a weapon that most players would regularly use off-perk. The Syringe, Shotgun/welder, 9mm, Bullpup, Katana/Knife, *Hopefully Mac10*, and Pipes/M79 are all common off-perk leveling weapons because they are all useful backup weapons even without perk bonuses).

The Flamethrower is pretty bad off-perk, and that means that Firebug is the hardest perk to level off-perk while still retaining your usefulness to the team. I don't know about you, but making just Firebug in particular so hard to off-perk level seems like an unnecessary difficulty. It's not that I don't like some difficulty, but there's the fun kind of challenge and the simply annoying kind, leveling Firebug off-perk is definitely the latter.

Either make Firebug easier to level off-perk through the Mac10, or make the other perks harder by tying their performance to perk bonuses like the Firebug's weapons. I would prefer the former though, a lot of the time I'm carrying weapons from multiple categories, my "main" perk weapon and a few off-perk secondaries.


OMG YES :eek:

FIREBUG GETS TO USE THE WELDER AS A MELEE WEAPON

THIS MUST BE IN THE NEW UPDATE
Legend of welda? :p
 
Last edited:

CA_Hiro

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 20, 2009
176
23
0
29
Denmark
Either make Firebug easier to level off-perk through the Mac10, or make the other perks harder by tying their performance to perk bonuses like the Firebug's weapons. I would prefer the former though, a lot of the time I'm carrying weapons from multiple categories, my "main" perk weapon and a few off-perk secondaries :p

I am gonna quote myself again. :)

Make it so the Firebug has to kill a specific amount of crawlers with either the Flamethrower/Incendiary Nade/Mac-10, then it would make more sense to me.
 

themuddaload

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 10, 2010
10
0
0
yeah... I think the mac10 needs to be made better for getting firebug experience...

a lot of the things ive been shooting have died before even having a chance to be lit on fire, and gain me experience from burning...

I dont know, the best thing i can think of is to have the bullet damage give experience to firebug as well, but only when wielded by a firebug, or something...
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,059
881
0
Sheffield, England
Just gonna throw this out there...

Personally I see the MAC-10 as a stop gap to help the Firebug save up money to reach the Flamethrower. Level up the old fashioned way. Playing your perk and filling your role.

Its what all of us original Firebugs did, and I see no reason why new Firebugs should be any different :)