Leading for ping is ridiculous.
- Thread starter Synesthesia
- Start date
We all know the horror stories of situations with a couple of seconds of lag resulting in getting shot where it shouldn't have been possible, but at the same time, in these same situations without lag compensation you're shooting and shooting and not hitting a thing.
It really goes both ways and lag compensation or not, high lag sucks!
In the end, in my opinion at least, what decides which system is better is what's more disruptive for normal gameplay under normal lag conditions, i.e. 50-250ms. And to me, it's clearly, without question, much more important that bullets travel at bullet speed!
First of all, shooting is a very delicate thing where perfect timing and accuracy makes all the difference and even normal RO2 lag of up to 250ms makes you miss shots and makes shooting feel loose.
I get shot much more often because I missed a shot at a moving target that I could have hit if it weren't for insane (and fluctuating and thus unpredictable!) leading!
Second, cover isn't an exact science anyway! Maybe your body got pulled into cover in time, maybe it didn't. Maybe an two inches of your elbow, leg or helmet where still exposed, maybe the shot penetrated the cover (inconsistent as this is handled in RO2...) who's to say?
How often do you really get shot because of a quarter of a second (!) and you notice you certainly must have been behind perfectly safe cover already when it happened and lag compensation got you killed? Twice every five games?
And how often do you shoot at moving targets and lag messes with our beloved realistic bullet physics, which no one barely ever experiences now because bullet speed, right now, is negligible relative to lag? Couple of hundred times per game?
To me it's pretty clear which system would be better for RO/RO2.
In a game with slow projectile weapons with a heavy emphasis on movement, like UT2004, things could be different, but for RO/RO2 smart lag compensation is the way to go, imo.
It really goes both ways and lag compensation or not, high lag sucks!
In the end, in my opinion at least, what decides which system is better is what's more disruptive for normal gameplay under normal lag conditions, i.e. 50-250ms. And to me, it's clearly, without question, much more important that bullets travel at bullet speed!
First of all, shooting is a very delicate thing where perfect timing and accuracy makes all the difference and even normal RO2 lag of up to 250ms makes you miss shots and makes shooting feel loose.
I get shot much more often because I missed a shot at a moving target that I could have hit if it weren't for insane (and fluctuating and thus unpredictable!) leading!
Second, cover isn't an exact science anyway! Maybe your body got pulled into cover in time, maybe it didn't. Maybe an two inches of your elbow, leg or helmet where still exposed, maybe the shot penetrated the cover (inconsistent as this is handled in RO2...) who's to say?
How often do you really get shot because of a quarter of a second (!) and you notice you certainly must have been behind perfectly safe cover already when it happened and lag compensation got you killed? Twice every five games?
And how often do you shoot at moving targets and lag messes with our beloved realistic bullet physics, which no one barely ever experiences now because bullet speed, right now, is negligible relative to lag? Couple of hundred times per game?
To me it's pretty clear which system would be better for RO/RO2.
In a game with slow projectile weapons with a heavy emphasis on movement, like UT2004, things could be different, but for RO/RO2 smart lag compensation is the way to go, imo.
The second you allow clientside hit detection is the second this game goes down the ****ter and gets bogged by hacks. COD BF2 CS:S all clientside, all hackfests.
@ 250ms what the heck are you doing on the server in the first place aside from lagging it up? Seriously? @ anything above 120ms you shouldn't be even considering playing on any server in the first place. I don't care what kind of netcode a game has it's going to not do anything correctly at those pings. The problem here is not the net code but your ****ty ping.
Don't state "facts" like you know -_- *face palm*
Ping compensation is possible and obviously has been ignored, and NEEDS to be implemented, especially for a game that delves into ballistics!
And exactly how many of those hacks have anything to do with the networking? Zero. The theoretical weakness of client-side hit detection is that, yes, potentially, someone could reverse engineer the network protocol and construct their own client & server to sit as a man in the middle and monkey with the data stream to feed out hit messages. To say that's a technically challenging, time-consuming task is an understatement. It's far easier, and typically more effective, to just crank out the usual aimbot & wallhack that come pre-made for the game's engine....and RO2 had those before it even got out of beta. Even if you go to all the trouble of doing the elaborate datastream manipulation, you're just as likely to wind up on pbbans as the aimbot guys are. There's no point to do it.
You're even undermining your own argument with that list. CS:S, like everything else Source, doesn't have client-side hit detection, its latency compensation is done by the server. By definition, no hack for it can manipulate the client-side hit detection. That's why Valve constructed it in that manner. And, as you noticed...that does nothing at all about the aimbots.
I was playing Nuclear Dawn over the free weekend when Steam decided it wanted to update a game while I was playing. That clogged my connection and the effective ping went up to well over 1000ms (yes, one second) with an immense amount of fluctuation. While this was going on, I was still able to land headshots on rapidly moving targets. Nuclear Dawn is made by an indie studio even smaller and less technically capable than Tripwire is, so that's not an excuse either.
Hell, I was playing Rogue Spear on dial-up ten years ago on people's listen servers with an average 300ms ping, and getting more accurate gameplay than RO2 can deliver even on a server that I get 60ms to (that's I can't play on anyway, as all the active US servers are east coast)
The kind of netcode a game has means a great deal. You can be playing RO2 on a LAN (< 2ms to the server!) and still have your shots fluctuate by up to 50ms of error solely due to tickrate. The networking design is fundamentally flawed even on the best connection possible.
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I think its a bug and not ping.
I think its a bug and not ping.
I was leading moving targets perfectly and consistantly in the BETA.
But since then it feels like random chance more than skill.
All the practice I have in RO was instantly in effect and it was game on directly.
So with that observation I can only say that the physics/netcode is the same as in RO.
If this is correct then something has changed since the BETA.
And more.
I did a 1 on 1 sniper session on Ogeldow with a nice guy who was just as frustrated and interested in doing some testing.
We where on opposite hillsides 200m apart, sprinting/walking back and forth while alternating taking shots.
I never scored a single hit on him even tough I depleted my ammo twice
He got me 3 times but that's more because I was playing the target dummy most of the time.
I've played RO since early 2006 and logged ca 700 hours just playing Darkest Hour.
So I'm not a stranger to the original game.. And that worked great for me in the BETA.
So what's wrong.
Could it be the Zoom feature or perhaps the dobble IR sight bug.
RO had great netcode and leading targets a cross the map was never a problem.
That game was instantly recognizable for me in ROHOS BETA.
I think its a bug and not ping.
I was leading moving targets perfectly and consistantly in the BETA.
But since then it feels like random chance more than skill.
All the practice I have in RO was instantly in effect and it was game on directly.
So with that observation I can only say that the physics/netcode is the same as in RO.
If this is correct then something has changed since the BETA.
And more.
I did a 1 on 1 sniper session on Ogeldow with a nice guy who was just as frustrated and interested in doing some testing.
We where on opposite hillsides 200m apart, sprinting/walking back and forth while alternating taking shots.
I never scored a single hit on him even tough I depleted my ammo twice
He got me 3 times but that's more because I was playing the target dummy most of the time.
I've played RO since early 2006 and logged ca 700 hours just playing Darkest Hour.
So I'm not a stranger to the original game.. And that worked great for me in the BETA.
So what's wrong.
Could it be the Zoom feature or perhaps the dobble IR sight bug.
RO had great netcode and leading targets a cross the map was never a problem.
That game was instantly recognizable for me in ROHOS BETA.
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I can't figure it out myself either.
I was OK with rifle with moving targets in RO, but I'm having the same experience of varied results. What makes it even harder is that everybody exploits the increased mobility by zigging and zagging. With the distorted hitbox and unpredictable leading shot, I have no confidence in my shooting ability with the rifle in RO2. Stationary objects of course is way too easy.
I was OK with rifle with moving targets in RO, but I'm having the same experience of varied results. What makes it even harder is that everybody exploits the increased mobility by zigging and zagging. With the distorted hitbox and unpredictable leading shot, I have no confidence in my shooting ability with the rifle in RO2. Stationary objects of course is way too easy.
With all the new players coming in from the Christmas Steam sale, I've been seeing a decent amount of in-game chat along the lines of "why am I having so much trouble hitting people?". I help them out by explaining the leading-for-latency, and the response is usually something along the lines of "thats stupid". This networking design is certainly not doing the game any popularity favors.
As far as I'm aware, this is the most recent dev post on the issue. The dev perspective on latency compensation a year ago seems to be:
1) The occasional "dying behind cover" event is annoying and
2) The entity motion prediction is good enough to make it unnecessary.
Now that the game's spent a few months in the wild, we can safely say that the prediction, if it's even enabled (I don't think it is, its side-effects are absent), is not even remotely good enough, and even someone who's inclined to rage at the misunderstood "dying behind cover" has to admit that it has far less of an impact on gameplay than the distortion of every single shot at any target doing any movement whatsoever. It's just a bit more common of an event
1) The occasional "dying behind cover" event is annoying and
2) The entity motion prediction is good enough to make it unnecessary.
Now that the game's spent a few months in the wild, we can safely say that the prediction, if it's even enabled (I don't think it is, its side-effects are absent), is not even remotely good enough, and even someone who's inclined to rage at the misunderstood "dying behind cover" has to admit that it has far less of an impact on gameplay than the distortion of every single shot at any target doing any movement whatsoever. It's just a bit more common of an event
Mekhazzio; you took the words right out of my mouth.
I'd even accept ALWAYS dying 'behind cover' if it meant the rest of the shooting was more consistent.
It feels to me at least that the focus is on getting more sales rather than trying to keep those people playing, I cannot convince anyone to buy once they've played it for even just 10mins online @ <100 ping because it's "just to random"
I'd even accept ALWAYS dying 'behind cover' if it meant the rest of the shooting was more consistent.
It feels to me at least that the focus is on getting more sales rather than trying to keep those people playing, I cannot convince anyone to buy once they've played it for even just 10mins online @ <100 ping because it's "just to random"
Leading targets was perfectly fine in the BETA, now its not. WHY
I imagine a small part of it was the TWI test server being top of the line... "The Beast"
TBH I still don't have problems leading targets anymore than I did in ROOST which was very manageable. Go figure...
Hi Moe..
I belelive you but I find it strange becuase I can hardly hit anything moving since the BETA.
No matter the server or ping and I know many old RO players feel the same.
Like I wrote previously..
In a 1 on 1 match at Ogeldow I couldn't hit a guy playing target dummy.
More than 30 shots at 200m and not 1 single hit.....? ( Unless he was standing still )
The other guy got me 3 times out of perhaps 50 shots. To make it worse.. We both had SCOPES
I also ran towards him once in a 50m sprint, he used to mags and didn't hit me once.
Matrix stuff like that is posible but for me it just adds to the feeling there's something wrong here.
If I didn't bealive it was working fine in the BETA. I would join the club and say..
You must lead targets, you need practise, you don't know the game, you need to lead more, if that dosn't help..You suck.
The hit detection system is wrong, netcode is lame and to blame etc etc.
Perhaps Its all good and I'm wrong. I think not and that it is a bug to blame for this.
So I think the question we need to ask is... What has changed since the BETA.
Anyway. I love RO2 and I'm posetive that all bugs will eventualy be fixed.
I belelive you but I find it strange becuase I can hardly hit anything moving since the BETA.
No matter the server or ping and I know many old RO players feel the same.
Like I wrote previously..
In a 1 on 1 match at Ogeldow I couldn't hit a guy playing target dummy.
More than 30 shots at 200m and not 1 single hit.....? ( Unless he was standing still )
The other guy got me 3 times out of perhaps 50 shots. To make it worse.. We both had SCOPES
I also ran towards him once in a 50m sprint, he used to mags and didn't hit me once.
Matrix stuff like that is posible but for me it just adds to the feeling there's something wrong here.
If I didn't bealive it was working fine in the BETA. I would join the club and say..
You must lead targets, you need practise, you don't know the game, you need to lead more, if that dosn't help..You suck.
The hit detection system is wrong, netcode is lame and to blame etc etc.
Perhaps Its all good and I'm wrong. I think not and that it is a bug to blame for this.
So I think the question we need to ask is... What has changed since the BETA.
Anyway. I love RO2 and I'm posetive that all bugs will eventualy be fixed.
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I haven't either. I can basically use the intervals I learned myself in ROOST in RO2, so I intuitively correct leading to the small ping variations.