Leading for ping is ridiculous.

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Machete234

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 17, 2010
457
142
0
In defense of lag compesnation etc you must know that DICE screwed their netcode up for years.
Its the reason I didnt even consider buying this game (now of course because of the spyware also)

COD4 had lag compensation and things like in BC2 or BF3 almost never happened.
 
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Xile

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2011
51
9
0
I don't really mind how things are at the moment, however..... trying to convince people to pick up RO2 by letting them play it..... this is their biggest complaint and why 9/10 people I try and convince don't buy.

IMO chance of a change: 0%
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
525
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hit detection and ballistics need to be calculated client-side, like battlefield. Currently they are done server-side.

Why does client-side work better?

Well, it produces the most realistic weapon experience when it comes to ballistics. In real life there is not a 0.5-1.0 second delay between when you pull the trigger and the bullet leaves the barrel (let alone that it also has to travel downrange.)

sure, using client-side ballistics will produce "kills" when one person thinks they are around a corner and whatnot. But this is actually good too; in ro2 this can easily be explained as getting hit but not knowing that you are for a few seconds (which can happen in real life.)

ultimately it can be concluded that both the advantages and disadvantages to client-side ballistics provide greater realism and, if it's possible for tripwire to implement it, they should seriously consider it.

+1
 

Synesthesia

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 12, 2011
92
76
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Wow, so many apologists. Funny how they never mention cqc. Should you lead 3 meters to the side of some guy thats right in front of you? Damn, those would be some slow bullets.

AND, i have yet to see a single server where 30 is the median ping. My brazilian friend up there is also representative of the playerbase, not all of it is located in US or EU, where the last remaining servers are.

Just a single switch, for client side detection i think would go a long way. And to those who say it favours the shooter, it goes both ways. If the SHOOTING part, of a first person shooter is not accurate, specially when the game likes to show its realism feathers, and one has to compensate for an ever changing ping, then im sorry, but something is wrong. Really wrong.

I'm glad you have no ping, but that is not the case for all of us. I find it hard to think its even the case for the majority.
 

Niklas

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 20, 2011
310
63
0
Germany
Usually i don't like see a difference with slight delay, but when you have to aim infront someone in CQB to hit him you know a netcode is bad.
 

Synesthesia

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 12, 2011
92
76
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how about a variation in round velocity linked to latency? That way you wouldnt have to lead so much more when you were north of 150.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
1,169
218
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Have you ever played Battlefield 3?

Yes, I play it for around 2 hours every day.
Really, playing it so much, I honestly think that the advantages to client-side ballistics far outweigh the disadvantages.

So you think that client-side ballistics would ruin CQC, but currently server-side ballistics is ruining both long-range combat and CQC (since you may fire at your target but have to wait for the server to register your bullet leaving the barrel.) Honestly I'd pick the lesser of two evils.
 
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Synesthesia

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 12, 2011
92
76
0
Yes, I play it for around 2 hours every day.
Really, playing it so much, I honestly think that the advantages to client-side ballistics far outweigh the disadvantages.

So you think that client-side ballistics would ruin CQC, but currently server-side ballistics is ruining both long-range combat and CQC (since you may fire at your target but have to wait for the server to register your bullet leaving the barrel.) Honestly I'd pick the lesser of two evils.

so ****ing this.
 
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tixhal

Active member
Nov 6, 2011
830
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43
Neuschwabenland
good arguments on both sides. imho lag compensation sucks. it's horrible when you get shot while you think you are already in cover. even worse if you shoot someone, get shot at the same time, die and the target doesn't even get hit.
having a high ping is always bad, no matter if the hit detection is client- or server based. as long as the ping stays around or below 100ms i prefer the status quo.
making client side detection optional for servers would be nice for those who have no servers in their vicinity, but not for me.
 

Tak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 10, 2006
1,855
96
0
East Coast, USA
Am I correct in assuming something like changing the code for the game's hit detection is no little thing? As in so non-little its basically a rewrite? I'm just a database guy so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here...

The best hope for people affected by this is better optimization and/or more and closer servers (with an increase in players, of course). Full disclaimer, I have had no problems on around 100 ping or less.
 

Stahlhelmii

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 16, 2011
721
401
0
i don't really know why anyone's complaining about hit detection anymore. seems to me it was fixed already. i have no problems leading people for the kill. up close is no different. if i get the shot off first, you're dead. when the game came out it was a problem for me. not now.
what effect does a players ping have to do with this? i usually have about a 125 to 200 ping usually on the low end of that scale.

i'd love the chance to do a beta test on the alternatives to what they're using now though. anything that can make the game better, i'm all for!

I don't have a clue what the mechanics are, but I know that the close range hit detection has been a problem for me since day one of DDE beta release. Anything from point blank to about 10 feet doesn't happen, gets a bit better (but still very "iffy") from 10-20 feet, then gets progressively better until it gets to be good from about 30-50 feet.

I'm tired of hearing blowhards typing, "L2P" or L2aim." I aim just fine. I've hit sprinting targets for a one shot kill from 150m-200m on several occasions. Medium-long range, I aim properly, it hits. I don't have a problem hitting a stationary player from 2 inches to 10 feet in any other game.

I'm tired of saying it (not directed to you, r5cya, just several blowhards of late, and you're post is a convenient point for it), but I'll say it again: If the hit detection works for you, great, I don't begrudge you that. Just remember that it doesn't work for EVERYBODY! People with this problem are not spastic, half-blind simpletons who can't hit a man-sized, stationary target a few feet in front of them. Perhaps you just can't face the fact that the world does not revolve around you, and your experience of any given thing is not universal.
 
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Icey_Pain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 8, 2011
706
304
0
Yes, I play it for around 2 hours every day.
Really, playing it so much, I honestly think that the advantages to client-side ballistics far outweigh the disadvantages.

So you think that client-side ballistics would ruin CQC, but currently server-side ballistics is ruining both long-range combat and CQC (since you may fire at your target but have to wait for the server to register your bullet leaving the barrel.) Honestly I'd pick the lesser of two evils.

In theory this sounds absolutely wonderful and I would be inclined to agree, if it wasn't for the fact that this is hardly how it functions in practice.

The fact is that both client side prediction as well as server side prediction as you'd like to call it, has it's negative effects when there is lag involved. However is that the perception of what works the best in a game is entirely dependent on how much control it gives you.

Just to state the obvious in order to explain what I'm getting at:

Client side prediction, offers you the most control when it comes to hitting your person. When you hit a person it's because you know you aimed correctly.

Server side prediction offers you the most control when it comes to knowing where to position yourself in order to be safe. When you get shot, you know where you got shot from so you are able to position yourself from cover to cover to prevent this from happening.

Now here's the thing, with server side prediction you can compensate by "leading" in order to fight the lag. This works pretty well upto about 80 ping. In many games you could consider everything above 80 ping to be too noticably laggy.

While with client side prediction, there is just nothing to compensate, you have no control over the things. When you get shot behind a corner, there is nothing you can do in order to prevent it. You die completely randomly and unless there's a killcam you're not ever going to recieve feedback on how you were killed.

Honestly why pick the lesser of two evils, when there's also a good choice to be picked. Which is to play on low-ping servers with server side prediction. Currently we don't have enough low-ping servers due to several things in the Red Orchestra 2 that aren't completely optimized yet.

So no, I don't think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. And I hope that I've explained myself well enough so you too understand why client side prediction is simply horrible.
 

=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
9,791
890
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56
Newton, NJ
In theory this sounds absolutely wonderful and I would be inclined to agree, if it wasn't for the fact that this is hardly how it functions in practice.

The fact is that both client side prediction as well as server side prediction as you'd like to call it, has it's negative effects when there is lag involved. However is that the perception of what works the best in a game is entirely dependent on how much control it gives you.

Just to state the obvious in order to explain what I'm getting at:

Client side prediction, offers you the most control when it comes to hitting your person. When you hit a person it's because you know you aimed correctly.

Server side prediction offers you the most control when it comes to knowing where to position yourself in order to be safe. When you get shot, you know where you got shot from so you are able to position yourself from cover to cover to prevent this from happening.

Now here's the thing, with server side prediction you can compensate by "leading" in order to fight the lag. This works pretty well upto about 80 ping. In many games you could consider everything above 80 ping to be too noticably laggy.

While with client side prediction, there is just nothing to compensate, you have no control over the things. When you get shot behind a corner, there is nothing you can do in order to prevent it. You die completely randomly and unless there's a killcam you're not ever going to recieve feedback on how you were killed.

Honestly why pick the lesser of two evils, when there's also a good choice to be picked. Which is to play on low-ping servers with server side prediction. Currently we don't have enough low-ping servers due to several things in the Red Orchestra 2 that aren't completely optimized yet.

So no, I don't think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. And I hope that I've explained myself well enough so you too understand why client side prediction is simply horrible.

Hey, I understand and have agreed with this all along. Only thing I would add is I can compensate (usually successfully) for ping up to around 160, but then I usually don't play on servers like that. I stick with local servers.
 

Proud_God

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 22, 2005
3,235
548
0
Belgium
In theory this sounds absolutely wonderful and I would be inclined to agree, if it wasn't for the fact that this is hardly how it functions in practice.

The fact is that both client side prediction as well as server side prediction as you'd like to call it, has it's negative effects when there is lag involved. However is that the perception of what works the best in a game is entirely dependent on how much control it gives you.

Just to state the obvious in order to explain what I'm getting at:

Client side prediction, offers you the most control when it comes to hitting your person. When you hit a person it's because you know you aimed correctly.

Server side prediction offers you the most control when it comes to knowing where to position yourself in order to be safe. When you get shot, you know where you got shot from so you are able to position yourself from cover to cover to prevent this from happening.

Now here's the thing, with server side prediction you can compensate by "leading" in order to fight the lag. This works pretty well upto about 80 ping. In many games you could consider everything above 80 ping to be too noticably laggy.

While with client side prediction, there is just nothing to compensate, you have no control over the things. When you get shot behind a corner, there is nothing you can do in order to prevent it. You die completely randomly and unless there's a killcam you're not ever going to recieve feedback on how you were killed.

Honestly why pick the lesser of two evils, when there's also a good choice to be picked. Which is to play on low-ping servers with server side prediction. Currently we don't have enough low-ping servers due to several things in the Red Orchestra 2 that aren't completely optimized yet.

So no, I don't think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. And I hope that I've explained myself well enough so you too understand why client side prediction is simply horrible.

What Icey said. You really can't 'magic' high ping away. It will always show its ugly head one way or the other.
 
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Machete234

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 17, 2010
457
142
0
Honestly why pick the lesser of two evils, when there's also a good choice to be picked. Which is to play on low-ping servers with server side prediction. Currently we don't have enough low-ping servers due to several things in the Red Orchestra 2 that aren't completely optimized yet.
The problem is you have to lead ahead on low ping servers also, I suspect because there is a delay in the server.
 

Mekhazzio

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 21, 2011
1,104
641
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While with client side prediction, there is just nothing to compensate, you have no control over the things. When you get shot behind a corner, there is nothing you can do in order to prevent it. You die completely randomly
Four things here.

First, completely randomly? Come now, it's not random, you die because someone shot you. The bullet doesn't materialize out of nowhere, the networking model doesn't make you spend extra time exposed, and your actions don't look any different on another client's screen than they do on yours. It's no different, functionally, than recording a video and playing it back for someone else 200, 300, whatever milliseconds later.

Second, the game already has this problem. Where you see yourself is not where you are on the server, and the server is the arbiter of what happens. You will "die behind cover" (a terrible term, but we'll go with that) regardless. You get the choice of "dying behind cover" and having shots go where you see them, or "dying behind cover" and not having shots go where you see them. If this bothers you so much, you should already be feeling it. If not, well then, twice more of nothing is still nothing, eh?

Third, if you didn't see the person that shot you, that'd be your fault. It's Red Orchestra. Not only is getting killed by someone you didn't see a staple part of the gameplay, but the maximum sprint speed is 5 meters/second, half to a third of what other shooter games have, and you can't even fire while sprinting. People are not going to magically teleport out of nowhere to shoot you within 150 milliseconds. There is nothing you could do to change the outcome of an event in that time window without engaging some sort of Matrix-style bullet dodging. The crude networking lets you do exactly that sort of bullet dodging, but surely that's not considered a good thing.

Fourth, do you really consider this the greater evil? Okay, so absolute worst case scenario, at a full sprint and a **really** laggy player shooting you, it might appear like you die 3.0 meters from the place you actually got killed at. So to restrict that disparity to 0.75 meters, you think it's worth giving up WYSIWYG weapon mechanics? It's worth making hallway-crossing shots mathematically impossible? It's worth making zig-zag evasives an effective tactic against rifle fire? I have a really hard time understanding why anyone would actually make that choice from an informed position.
The problem is you have to lead ahead on low ping servers also, I suspect because there is a delay in the server.
You have to add extra lead on any server with a ping greater than zero, by your ping time. Lower pings decrease the amount of additional lead, but it is always non-zero. It's a gradient going against personal opinion.

Everyone will have a different threshold for what they personally consider tolerable, for me I'd say it's down in the 20ms range. Even that tiny amount of delay is still enough to make shots miss for no reason, but at least it'll be fairly infrequent at that level. Too bad it's utterly unattainable on an internet connection. I get more than that just to get to my own ISP's own nameserver.

A precision shooting game is, in my book, disastrously flawed by a lack of latency compensation, which is why I post so much in these threads. RO2 could be so much better with what can be a very minor code addition.

But yes, there is an extra delay in the server. Your shot doesn't get run until the next server tick. At the default tickrate you're looking at 25ms average in addition to the connection latency.
 

TheRealGunther

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
1,177
282
0
Blue Ridge GA
This is the one thing I'm having trouble with compared to Ost.After years of playing Ost I got good at leading targets and could hit people running with my bolt fairly consistently.In Ro2 for me anyway its like a role of the dice sometimes I feel I have learned it then a high ping guy will show up and my sight is way off.

Im glad RO doesn't have server side hit detection don't get me wrong I hate it in other games.I think the problem is just in the ping problem we see at times when its 100 or below I have few problems but, as it rises I really struggle with the bolt to find that sweet spot on running targets.
 

Nazarov

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 24, 2009
674
190
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This is the one thing I'm having trouble with compared to Ost.After years of playing Ost I got good at leading targets and could hit people running with my bolt fairly consistently.In Ro2 for me anyway its like a role of the dice sometimes I feel I have learned it then a high ping guy will show up and my sight is way off.

Im glad RO doesn't have server side hit detection don't get me wrong I hate it in other games.I think the problem is just in the ping problem we see at times when its 100 or below I have few problems but, as it rises I really struggle with the bolt to find that sweet spot on running targets.

It really varies depending on the ping and the server and the range of course
But there is also the issue with fast changing trajectory (i.e. the runner) coupled with models that have choppy turns.
If rifles are useless long range, then you know what they are.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
1,169
218
0
So no, I don't think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. And I hope that I've explained myself well enough so you too understand why client side prediction is simply horrible.

I have already previously explained why client-side would be better for Red Orchestra since it's a realism-oriented game, but we are both entitled to our opinions. Ultimately, just to clarify, it's not that I don't see the advantages to doing it "server-side", it's that I weigh it's disadvantages as heavier than that of client-side, and that's just where we both have different opinions.
 

Synesthesia

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 12, 2011
92
76
0

So articulate. Thanks! A voice like this was needed. You are precisely right. The fact remains, that red orchestra is pretty much centered in the gunplay, not the running and gunning with your opponent in view. As you said, being killed from nowhere happens a lot, and its an integral part of the game, because its not about dodging bullets from full auto weapons, a la bf3 (at least most of the times, in cqc this might change, but then again, cqc is the one thats been most bothered by this server side thing).

So, its not about dodging, its about positioning yourself. If you died suddenly, its because you exposed yourself, period. It might happen 150 ms later, but the fact remains that you exposed yourself, someone saw you, aimed at you, and fired correctly.