Last One Alive: Through the Fire and the Flames?

[WhiteTigerShiro]

But I am kinda getting just a tad annoyed at this MASSIVE derailing that has been transformed into some kind of debate-gone-flamewars.

Heh, sorry. For what it's worth, I've been trying to get a decent reply out of 9_6, but he seems vested in this like a Christian debating with an Athiest about whether or not there is a God.

So much text but when it comes down to it, your whole argumentation is based on making a claim and then treat it as a fact until someone else "proves you wrong" but god forbid if I do the same, it's suddenly stupid, makes no sense and is trolling.

Funny thing about that... I could say this exact same phrase and it would be about as true. All I've done is present my reasons for feeling that it's an exploit, while all you've done is react with hostile intent.

Bit of advice for the future: Avoid debate topics. You're clearly just unable to handle the emotional barrage of someone disagreeing with your opinion on something to the point where you just come-off as a complete *** when you try to defend it. I actually had a couple friends like that back in high school... any time they stated their opinion on anything I would just smile and nod and let it be that because there was just no discussing the matter with them without it turning into... well... this topic. Not saying you can't post on forums, of course, just avoid debates. They simply aren't your thing.

Also, this isn't about who's "right or wrong", or "winning vs losing", this is about opinion vs opinion. I have mine, you have yours. I've explained the logic behind why I feel it's an exploit, Smilin has presented his reasoning for why it might not be. Note that at no point in my posts do I state a definite. Go back and re-read them if you want, the phrase "could be" comes-up a lot. And why? Because as I've stated numerous times, neither side has any-more proof than the other. I'm willing to accept the possibility that it might not be an exploit and that the developers are 100% fine with it and even intended it, but it's my opinion that perhaps they didn't.

Basically, it's the Shrodinger's Cat scenario. Either it is an exploit, or it isn't. Unless we have definite proof however, we have to assume that both are equally true. I personally am more inclined to believe that's exploitative, you clearly are on the other side of the spectrum chilling with Smilin.

 

[nutterbutter]

The point I'm getting at with that little story is this: While the backpack issue is hardly exploit-relevant, it does bring-up the point that perhaps Tripwire is unable to find a way to have your characters drop a gun while holding onto the ammo.

That is probably the truth. From what I have seen, weapons were designed with ammo being attached rather than ammo sticking with the player. That way people could toss the weapon to another player with a small ammo penalty or die and a survivor could pick up a weapon to carry on the fight. The problem is that people are....., wait for it, exploiting that behavior to stock weapons so they can spam during the entire wave.

I think the problem is Tripwire has terrible testing players. How they also allowed unlimited pipebombs, and continue to allow them, shows to me that testers are probably testing mechanics and not playability.

 

[nutterbutter]

Also, this isn't about who's "right or wrong", or "winning vs losing", this is about opinion vs opinion.

Yup.

 

[smilin]

No, one view is supported, although not proven to a logical certainty, by objective evidence and therefore the most likely possibility. The other view is 100% (one hundred percent, absolutely positively) subjective with no evidence.

Occam's razor then moves that view heuristically out of the realm of pure opinion.

In other words "evidence indicates X" trumps "my feelings on the topic indicate Y" even in a situation where absolute certainty is impossible.

I don't see any facts that show this is an exploit. With nothing behind it but an opinion the burden of proof in this argument lies with those that think it's an exploit.

Disagree? Awesomefun. It's very easy to prove me wrong on the above...but only IF you're right. If however only subjective reasoning can be supplied then it will be terribly difficult to prove me wrong (and we'll blather for another 4 pages).

After perhaps some frustration the inconsequential argument of "well that's just your opinion" will incorrectly be used. Again...just a tiny drop of non-subjective evidence would blow this thing back into the realm of a valid argument. If you've got some of that please let it fly.

Now if you want to rephrase into "my personal view is that this is an exploit" or "this appears to me to be an exploit" then you'll be factually correct. I'll agree with you 100% and beat up anyone who says you're wrong.

 

[smilin]

Basically, it's the Shrodinger's Cat scenario. Either it is an exploit, or it isn't. Unless we have definite proof however, we have to assume that both are equally true.

Not quite. In the case of Shrodinger's cat you CAN assume they are both equally true because the experiment was designed to produce a 50% probability.

In other cases of quantum uncertainty you can deal with scenarios that produce a near certainty while not being absolute. In our case there is evidence of designer intent (although not 100% conclussive) on one side and no evidence at all of designer intent on the other. Flipping a coin won't simulate this argument but it would for the cat.

 

[Compass]

I can prove it's not an exploit.

Is stockpiling weapons (IE, buying weapons and dropping them on the ground for use when your weapon runs out of ammo) considered an exploit?

Nope, been doing it since day one.

GG. Now you're going to tell me it's just a newb strat.

And for that, I can prove it's not a newb strat.

Is stockpiling weapons (IE, buying weapons and dropping them on the ground for use when your weapon runs out of ammo) considered an exploit?

Nope, been doing it since day one.

GG.

PS: I win the thread for doing something we should have done at least 1 week ago.

 

[Zeron]

I can prove it's not an exploit.



GG. Now you're going to tell me it's just a newb strat.

And for that, I can prove it's not a newb strat.



GG.

PS: I win the thread for doing something we should have done at least 1 week ago.

But you still lost the game.

 

[smilin]

PS: I win the thread for doing something we should have done at least 1 week ago.

Aye but stay on the high road and be a gracious winner (at least with those that gave you a legit argument and not a bunch of trollsh1t.)

 

[Compass]

But you still lost the game.

Argh. I lost the game.

Seriously, why didn't we ask Yoshiro a week ago?

 

[timur]

But you still lost the game.

Damnit!

Now Ive lost the game!

You win this time, Zeron......

 

[9_6]

Heh, sorry. For what it's worth, I've been trying to get a decent reply out of 9_6, but he seems vested in this like a Christian debating with an Athiest about whether or not there is a God.

I've made my points as crystal clear and formulated them as short as I can, you either just did not understand them or you willfully ignored them because you had nothing left to put against them.
For instance, one major point got written off as "trolling".
For your own good, let's just assume you misread my posts.

Also, this isn't about who's "right or wrong", or "winning vs losing", this is about opinion vs opinion. I have mine, you have yours. I've explained the logic behind why I feel it's an exploit, Smilin has presented his reasoning for why it might not be. Note that at no point in my posts do I state a definite. Go back and re-read them if you want, the phrase "could be" comes-up a lot. And why? Because as I've stated numerous times, neither side has any-more proof than the other. I'm willing to accept the possibility that it might not be an exploit and that the developers are 100% fine with it and even intended it, but it's my opinion that perhaps they didn't.

Dude
That would all be fine and dandy if the original "logic behind why this is an exploit" wasn't that it "effectively gives you unlimited ammunition".
This has been absolutely undefendable to begin with aside from the fact that it's completely off-topic.

I also like how you try to use my behavior -or more like just the tone- in a completely other topic against me instead of trying to go into what I've actually just said. If ignoring points while trying to make other people look bad is part of your discussion strategy then you should reconsider having discussions.
All I have done is attacking your points and not you.

For the record, I never wanted this discussion.
My first reply was mostly uttering complete disbelief that such a view even exists.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

GG. Now you're going to tell me it's just a newb strat.

And for that, I can prove it's not a newb strat.

The quote might prove that it isn't considered to be an exploit, but it doesn't prove anything beyond that. Plenty of people can tell you that regardless of what class (okay I'm sorry, perk, heaven forbid I come from a lot of RPGs =P) you play, you should never run out of ammo unless you're using the weapon improperly.

For your own good, let's just assume you misread my posts.

Ah yes, the grand 'ole "God moves in mysterious ways" argument. There's a fine line between using sarcasm to make a point, and just plain trolling. You crossed that line when you put Nutter's words in my mouth and then continued the discussion as though I were a part of it from the get-go.

Dude
That would all be fine and dandy if the original "logic behind why this is an exploit" wasn't that it "effectively gives you unlimited ammunition".

So basically you've been arguing with Nutter this whole time and I somehow just thought your posts were aimed at me. Silly me for thinking that by quoting me you were talking to me. Next time I'll be more careful and make sure that someone quoting me is actually talking to me.

AKA: Just because Nutter and I are on "the same side" about an issue, doesn't mean we share the same reasons. Note how in none of my posts do I claim that it gives you infinite ammo, simply that it extends your ammo capacity beyond what a weapon should hold. But in any case, the point is moot as someone has already posted a quote from a developer (or ex-developer? I dunno...) stating that they intended it.

 

[HCX]

Damnit!

Now Ive lost the game!

You win this time, Zeron......

Argh. I lost the game.

It's not that hard to enter the winners' circle, y'know.

 

[9_6]

Ah yes, the grand 'ole "God moves in mysterious ways" argument. There's a fine line between using sarcasm to make a point, and just plain trolling. You crossed that line when you put Nutter's words in my mouth and then continued the discussion as though I were a part of it from the get-go.

So basically you've been arguing with Nutter this whole time and I somehow just thought your posts were aimed at me. Silly me for thinking that by quoting me you were talking to me. Next time I'll be more careful and make sure that someone quoting me is actually talking to me.
AKA: Just because Nutter and I are on "the same side" about an issue, doesn't mean we share the same reasons. Note how in none of my posts do I claim that it gives you infinite ammo, simply that it extends your ammo capacity beyond what a weapon should hold. But in any case, the point is moot as someone has already posted a quote from a developer (or ex-developer? I dunno...) stating that they intended it.

Thank you for proving my point.

Moving on...

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

Thank you for proving my point.

Moving on...

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[timur]

For a second there, I thought the argument was over.

Clearly I was wrong

 

[9_6]

There was an argument here
it's gone now.

 

[timur]

There was an argument here
it's gone now.

Oh thats good

Now from here we have a choice:

Talk more about your personal experiences with being alone as a firebug (on a harder difficulty, prefferably), as well as any strategies/tips for doing so.

or.......

talk about :IS2:s!

 

[9_6]

Personally, I've never out-lived a team as a firebug.

 

[smilin]

The quote might prove that it isn't considered to be an exploit, but it doesn't prove anything beyond that.

Yes it does. Here comes the science!

He showed a non-noob using the strat. This logically means it cannot be a noob-only strat. This is only true of course if you accept the given: That Yoshi is not a noob.

I'm good with the given myself