Killing Floor 2 feels so soulless

[2Clicks]

I don't suggest the entire playerbase is bad.

There's a lot of players that have a lot of hours in KF2 that don't seem willing to be communicative and helpful team players. I run a server that tries to work at the very concept of communication and teamwork. Up until very recently we've had mixed results, but now it's starting to really take off and the small community I host for is working quite smoothly together.

This is an ideal forum to be completely honest about your thoughts and ideas on the game - I'll happily admit that some of the sentiments I've expressed aren't particularly polite. Does that make the experiences that I've commented on any less valid? Not for a moment. Sometimes I'm surprised at how much criticism is leveled at the developers from the playerbase without seeming to ever look inwards to find ways they can improve the game's experience.

The developers only create the game - as in, the shell of the experience that players have. The players contribute to make the game what it is, and if there's a lot of negative sentiment about the game... maybe it's not just the shell that's got holes in it.

Im not sure why you need re-assurance from me. Its your purchase and you should get what you want out of it. And if you dont then by all means express yourself. But to denigrate the playerbase because the game or whatever isnt to your satisfaction is just gonna get ppls backs up.

Afterall you dont call the devs numbskulls for putting in features that dont provide the experience youre after. And unfortunately the playerbase is gonna take all forms. And they are gonna contribute good things and bad things.

I can point out many "bad" things with the playerbase that actually enhance gameplay - but not in every situation. You have to take the bad with the good and the rough with the smooth.

For instance - lonewolf rambos joining and getting the team killed accidently on purpose. Fine the first rnd. Then next I go into anti-rambo mode and ensure that me and them will be the only ones left if the other players can deal with the raged biggies. I then spend my time outrunning everything and make sure they die. Even if it mean raging stuff against them.

Alternatively joining a group of below avg players (in terms of experience/knowledge,not ability) I will do my best to keep them alive as a medic.

Even though for me the second scenario is what happens most games as good medics are rarely encountered.

Ive said this loads of times.... too many ppl are start a game looking for that "perfect" session. And get frustrated if it doesnt happen. Well its a game. Its okay to play it seriously but sometimes ppl should chillax and just enjoy the experience for what it is. Its got to the point where I avoid group servers with ppl who are friends bc the experience becomes deja vu/ground hog day.

PPersonally Im at that stage were I like playing on pubs. because you never know what the quality of the experience will be and you learn more about what you thought you knew but didnt, playing those types of games.

 

[Gladius]

But to denigrate the playerbase because the game or whatever isnt to your satisfaction is just gonna get ppls backs up.

Reality check: Pub games are just awful.

One idiot is enough to destabilize a team to the point where a position can't be held anymore. So most people in pub games don't even try to work together because it's allegedly easier when everyone is on it's own, instead of taking the risk to rely on strangers. And yes, this is absolutely a problem of the playerbase. Because there is not an established meta present.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

No reassurance needed. Everyone plays the game to their own tastes - casuals, semi-serious and hardcore players.

One problem I've noticed is that I see players that I'd categorise as either casuals or semi-serious, that want to cheev-hunt as though they're serious about the game. It's completely understandable that people will play the game in a fashion commensurate with their outlook on it, but I wonder about why they don't temper their achievements to suit their outlook on the game. For these purposes, I'll call them "casual HoEs".

When it comes to pubs, there's been plenty of occasions where it's been fun, engaging and a richly rewarding experience. However, parts of the community that play normal and hard difficulty take opposition to high-level players being in the server. That's fair enough, they're trying to level and they don't need "kill-stealers" in their server taking their valuable XP. However, when you exit normal and hard diff, you move into something beyond casual play - not necessarily serious, but if a team isn't working cohesively, it can be a rough 10 waves.

Casual HoEs spend most of their time - from what I've seen - in both of the top two difficulties. Some are achievement-farming, others have other purposes: lone-wolf players, opportunistic team-players would be how I loosely describe them... along with griefers, it has to be mentioned.

Many of these casual HoE players in my region register a lot of cynicism towards TWI and the game generally. This permeates nearly every aspect of the discussions about the game that these people have: text chat and voice over IP... all-cynic, all the time. Most of what I hear is that they nerf things that "work" in their opinion - these are the same players that were Zwei-wallers with two popcorn guns behind it for nearly 3 months straight.

This combination of players makes for a pretty miserable KF2 experience for people that are in-between the normal/hard leveling/casual fun end of the game, and the people that are in semi-to-fully-serious HoE games. If you're not being passively dragged down by lone wolves and merely opportunistic teamplay, you're being actively dragged down by griefers.

In a way, it's still kinda on-topic because I think that players that are barriers to truly team-focused play are the ones that tend to drift to other games when there's new releases; they follow the player numbers wherever they go. As in, the game's likely to get better for players like myself as the more tunnel-visioned players move on to other games.

Imo, the game is in a frustrating place, where it's new enough that players still try to get the experience they want out of the game, and old enough for the playerbase to be cynical about it and the developers.

 

[Reptilian]

opportunistic team-players

Gunslingers that rage scrakes and then run leaving me with the scrake make me sad. And then they just finish off the scrake after I die.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

Gunslingers that rage scrakes and then run leaving me with the scrake make me sad. And then they just finish off the scrake after I die.

Most of the issues with the game are interconnected.

Significant amounts of the playerbase complain about movespeed bonuses for some perks, and not others - it's a valid point, and I can appreciate it. The flow-on from the anecdote you've presented is that it discourages players from being Support, Commando, Demo and Firebug. This is evidenced in the snapshots, and in the games that many of us play, particularly on higher difficulties.

I'm of the view that a big factor in the game lacking "soul" is this:

Because there is not an established meta present.

Berserker and Medic seem to slot well together, and Gunslinger isn't entirely out of place amongst those two*.

I get the feeling that the perks like Support, Commando, Demo and Firebug are likely to rely more upon SWAT and Sharpshooter than the movespeed-savvy perks, which is currently a detriment due to their non-existence. Once the parameters of the perks are fairly well set, we'll start to see a few more combinations of perks able to function very well together, and I think it'll really change the game for the better, particularly for the more maligned perks.

Between that and a better understanding of the game by the playerbase, it should really blossom into the game it was always meant to be. That's gonna take a whole lot of precious time.

 

[2Clicks]

Reality check: Pub games are just awful.

One idiot is enough to destabilize a team to the point where a position can't be held anymore. So most people in pub games don't even try to work together because it's allegedly easier when everyone is on it's own, instead of taking the risk to rely on strangers. And yes, this is absolutely a problem of the playerbase. Because there is not an established meta present.

Even if the possibility exists that a few pub games "can be" awful it doesnt justify declaring the playerbase to be numbskullian.

Even if a "one idiot" (I say bad player) is enough to destabilize a team, Ive already explained in my previous post that its not the end of the world. Take it as an opportunity to learn more about your abilities if for nothing else to rectify the potential wipe.

More often than not its the selfish pricks that rage everything and run away that destabilize a team. Not the ones who lack experience. Those are usually the ones who die first. Though its unfortunate when they take a good player down with them but they can be given money to reequip the next rnd. Ive had enough practice now that as long as Im medic or there is a v. good medic on the team then we can use the games mechanics to win the wave.

Ive seen pro players who lead the team in kills and then on a later wave make one tiny mistake and die. Then they leave with a pot load of money cause they cant take the fact that they died....

If I knew that person in a little bit Id tell them to grow a pair and not to be so gun-ho! Those players are potentially just as lethal as players without experience or knowledge.

So what if there isnt an established meta.... are we going to regiment tactics like in KF1... where firebugs and demos spammed and got ppl killed. Or wait for the sharpie to misfire, rage an sc and get someone else killed!

Unpredictability can be fun. If you treat it that way.
Just as playing with a well rehearsed team can get boring because everyone know what to expect from each other.

 

[Gladius]

You have zerk written all over yourself.

 

[moleculo]

^ I agree with 2clicks If you have all 6 players going after the one fleshpound, you're probably going to be overrun by trash in seconds. If you can't kill the fleshpound with half the team, the team is flawed.

But looking through your posts, maybe you were just blindly exaggerating when you were saying you need 6p. It looks like you really just want to be able to kill a fleshpound by yourself without anyone else's help because now you don't feel special.



Because being able to kill a scrake in 3 shots with your file is "solid mechanic". I'm not saying KF1 was bad, but more of, it's not as easy as that now: doesn't mean KF2 is bad now either (or a shell, as you put it, not for these reasons anyways...).

Either you're playing on a difficulty you're not equipped to play, or you're running up to the FPs/SCs with a knife.

What an awfully condescending post.

 

[silverlighted]

What an awfully condescending post.

I honestly disagree. And I think it's unfortunate you feel that way.

Edit:

Yeah. I've re-read it a few times. To take it paragraph by paragraph.
1. I'm arguing this as fact. There is also no value judgment here against anyone.

2. The blind exaggeration line was to acknowledge that maybe I'm making a mistake by taking the poster too literally. The special line is arguably condescending but that's not the intent; it's just what I gathered from the poster. Its not bad that said poster wants to be a badass. But it is a distinctly different argument from the criticism that you need 6p.

3. I'm questioning the term solid mechanic. And then I acknowledge that the difficulty and meta has changed. This may be bad. But. Calling it a shell (as what this thread is purporting) isn't appropriate imo.

4. Iirc this was in response to statement made about how when the scrakes and fps come out, the poster just gets bored cause they're just gonna die anyways. I'm arguing what I thought was true. For that level of helplessness, the diff is too high or the player is way too reckless.

I don't know if you personally care or not but I'm being defensive since all of those lines you quoted will be visible to posters without context. I find it rather rude for you to dismiss it blindly as condescending given all the usual arrogance and rudeness and elitism that tends to frequent these forums.

 

[moleculo]

I honestly disagree. And I think it's unfortunate you feel that way.

Edit:

Yeah. I've re-read it a few times. To take it paragraph by paragraph.
1. I'm arguing this as fact. There is also no value judgment here against anyone.

2. The blind exaggeration line was to acknowledge that maybe I'm making a mistake by taking the poster too literally. The special line is arguably condescending but that's not the intent; it's just what I gathered from the poster. Its not bad that said poster wants to be a badass. But it is a distinctly different argument from the criticism that you need 6p.

3. I'm questioning the term solid mechanic. And then I acknowledge that the difficulty and meta has changed. This may be bad. But. Calling it a shell (as what this thread is purporting) isn't appropriate imo.

4. Iirc this was in response to statement made about how when the scrakes and fps come out, the poster just gets bored cause they're just gonna die anyways. I'm arguing what I thought was true. For that level of helplessness, the diff is too high or the player is way too reckless.

I don't know if you personally care or not but I'm being defensive since all of those lines you quoted will be visible to posters without context. I find it rather rude for you to dismiss it blindly as condescending given all the usual arrogance and rudeness and elitism that tends to frequent these forums.

Yeah it was mostly the part kind of downplaying bass's points as "wanting to be special" and the subsequent implication that KF1 was really easy and KF2 is too hard for him (so maybe his points aren't as valuable?). Maybe you didn't mean it that way but this thread seems to be full of that kind of posts and yours stuck out since it was among the latest. Sorry for singling you out I guess

I'm inclined to agree with bass that I found the KF1 style where you were able to do more on your own more enjoyable. Not really because of feeling special, but because it was simply more rewarding being able to achieve something alone as well as a part of a well-functioning group. We also had more zeds to compensate, even though KF1 probably was pretty surely somewhat easier for an experienced team.

 

[2Clicks]

You have zerk written all over yourself.

If thats aimed at me.... Lol... Is that such a bad thing!?

And no I usually play medic or support. FB or GS in first half sometimes. Zerker depending on the difficulty. Rarely play mando as there always seems to be one about... ^^ Demo only on occasion.

The thing of it is that I enjoy learning how to play each perk in a variety of situations.

 

[bass361]

Yes you can say I want to feel special, and who would blame me for wanting to feel at least significant enough to do something useful right?

To me PERSONALLY (my own opinion, you can have yours) needing the entire team to kill a FP or SC, even half the team to me is too much, is not fun.

I think there should be better ways to deal with them, that's all, and if someone is reading a KF2 thread on the KF2 website they probably have plenty of context.

 

[VastSpartan]

Yes you can say I want to feel special, and who would blame me for wanting to feel at least significant enough to do something useful right?

To me PERSONALLY (my own opinion, you can have yours) needing the entire team to kill a FP or SC, even half the team to me is too much, is not fun.

I think there should be better ways to deal with them, that's all, and if someone is reading a KF2 thread on the KF2 website they probably have plenty of context.

Then at this point and continuing down the path on trying to solo the big ones, you will eventually keep dying if you arent co-operating with your team mates.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

needing the entire team to kill a FP or SC, even half the team to me is too much, is not fun.

You don't need an entire team to kill a FP or SC if you co-ordinate your efforts: this is true on every difficulty at even 6-players.

However, one person's concept of "fun" - as in, soloing big zeds whilst the rest of them stand around mopping the floor of trash - largely ignores the fun of others also. That was a substantial part of the experience of KF1 - the people that knew all the combos heroed the big zeds, and the rest of us stood around shooting the occasional crawler, saying "gee, this is ****ing boring".

So one side says "taking 6 players to kill big zeds isn't fun" [which isn't a reality anyway; it takes only 2 if done right, one, depending on perk and skill level] and the end of the scale says "being the hero perk's janitor isn't fun either" and the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't want to compromise on their personal view of "fun".

I had a game two nights ago with one player I know very well, and four other players that had mixed numbers of hours in the game - suicidal difficulty. Some players had 50 hours in-game, others 100-150, and a couple of us in excess of 500.

The level of teamwork involved in that particular game was of a standard you'd almost never see in a pub match. Scrakes almost always decapped before EMP expired, fleshpounds properly stunned, C4ed and rarely survived long enough to actually hurt someone, and trash cleaning/crowd control of a generally high standard.

To my mind, there is nothing that compares to being part of a team that actually makes that happen - to turn a game that's considered by many to be very hard to complete, into one that's relatively smooth and well-organised. That's an extremely satisfying experience in my opinion, but I'm in the camp of people that think that a co-op game should be just that.

I don't like pub games where players - through either selfishness, lack of game knowledge or wilful ignorance - break down that level of co-operation simply to maximise their own utility in the game. From what I've gathered in my extensive time in the game, it's about how aware a player is about the impact of their own conduct in the game re: other players in that game.

Whose* fun comes first - yours, to the exclusion of others' fun?

 

[poultrygeist]

However, one person's concept of "fun" - as in, soloing big zeds whilst the rest of them stand around mopping the floor of trash - largely ignores the fun of others also. That was a substantial part of the experience of KF1 - the people that knew all the combos heroed the big zeds, and the rest of us stood around shooting the occasional crawler, saying "gee, this is ****ing boring".

our team(s) often play that way and thats where the fun lies in KF1,downing the big guys with all sorts of combos/off perk weaponry 360 flinch and whatnot.i often support and have no problem clearing the trash just to see another awesome combo some guy has come up with.however this unfortunatly doesnt work in KF2 anymore.but its a really great feeling pulling off a 360 kata flinch just to finish off the sc with a shoulder shot (i cant do it btw)

i wouldnt call it "being a hero" but you cant deny the satisfaction you get pulling something off on your own

 

[2Clicks]

SNIP

Whose* fun comes first - yours, to the exclusion of others' fun?

Exactly so....

our team(s) often play that way and thats where the fun lies in KF1,downing the big guys with all sorts of combos/off perk weaponry 360 flinch and whatnot.i often support and have no problem clearing the trash just to see another awesome combo some guy has come up with.however this unfortunatly doesnt work in KF2 anymore.but its a really great feeling pulling off a 360 kata flinch just to finish off the sc with a shoulder shot (i cant do it btw)

i wouldnt call it "being a hero" but you cant deny the satisfaction you get pulling something off on your own

Its satisfying for the person doing it.... even worse is when they get out the .50 cal and headshoot zeds dead 1 or 2 at a time. May as well go and play solo with a couple of faked player muts.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

our team(s) often play that way and thats where the fun lies in KF1,downing the big guys with all sorts of combos/off perk weaponry 360 flinch and whatnot.i often support and have no problem clearing the trash just to see another awesome combo some guy has come up with.however this unfortunatly doesnt work in KF2 anymore.but its a really great feeling pulling off a 360 kata flinch just to finish off the sc with a shoulder shot (i cant do it btw)

i wouldnt call it "being a hero" but you cant deny the satisfaction you get pulling something off on your own

It's really down to personal outlook on what constitutes a co-op experience. That's always going to be subjective, and it's part of why you have threads like this.

 

[Gladius]

However, one person's concept of "fun" - as in, soloing big zeds whilst the rest of them stand around mopping the floor of trash - largely ignores the fun of others also. That was a substantial part of the experience of KF1 - the people that knew all the combos heroed the big zeds, and the rest of us stood around shooting the occasional crawler, saying "gee, this is ****ing boring".

Eh, what are you talking about? Players can only combo when they get protected by their teammates, while doing so. I babysit a lot of combo players and this is far from being boring. Actually that requires way more effort and teamwork then everybody just spamming on the same big one. Check out my videos to see what I'm talking about:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO6zNPm0xSnu9EwaJ0vzLnA[/URL]

Boring? I don't think so.

 

[poultrygeist]

Its satisfying for the person doing it.... even worse is when they get out the .50 cal and headshoot zeds dead 1 or 2 at a time. May as well go and play solo with a couple of faked player muts.

you must have a bad experience playing these games then because eitherway you yourself become the player that soloes the bigger zeds or you're bored shooting all the trash and supporting the team.

granted taking out 2 scrakes with a .50 cal isnt the biggest show of skill but nonetheless big zeds less to worry about.if i want a big one myself ill ask ingame and on most servers i play on that works well.

in KF2 you cant combo (the only one iam aware of is the GS legshot) bigger threats so if we have a perk on the team that can solo it ill put all my effort in to support that player..stepping in only if the player is overwhelmed or cant deal with them.as gladius said playing a support role in KF2 requires more skill than in 1 because of the different ways you can support the team.

 

[Gladius]

Mouse one spam for everybody = fun

Sophisticated teamplay and combos = boring

Internet forums... gotta luv 'em.