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KF2 Perk power level

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
so, i don't see this mentioned often (At least, in the current discussion)

But the current perks & perk levelling feel -TERRIBLE-

Lets look at the per level for support, for example:



  • +2% Welding Proficiency
  • +1% Shotgun Damage
  • +25% Shotgun Penetration
  • +2% Grenade Damage

@25: 50% Welding prof, 25% shotgun damage, 625% Shotgun pen (!) and +50% Grenade damage

Lets compare that to KF1 @ R6

+60% Damage, 90% Shotgun pen, +30% ammo, +50% Grenade damage, +120% Grenade carry capacity, +60% Weight capacity, +150% Welding speed, 70% Discount on shotguns

Lets not forget you also spawned with the hunting shotgun (Double barrel)

The "Skills" are pretty much pointless to mention with how few overall are actually worth mentioning to begin with.

This same issue appears on every class, it's 10+ levels before any of the bonuses add up to anything useful, and the bonuses that matter the most for a class (Damage, Ammo, Defense) scale crap compared to the first game.

I hate to put it this way, but KF2 feels free to play as it stands in early access, i keep expecting to see a real-cash shop added with things like a one-time use +100% damage item and such nonsense.

I'd seriously say to ditch the current levels, go back to the 6 levels with more XP per level than current, but effectively scaling to L30, Hell, even bring back the golden perk icons, keep the skills as they are.

Because with how long it takes to hit 10+ even playing on hard and up, the amount of difference between levels doesn't feel punchy at all, even with the "skills" factored in.

For those confused, here's some basic math:

if i have a weapon that hits for 100 damage, and an enemy with 500 health, it's going to take 5 hits to kill it.

if i have a +15% damage bonus, i hit for 115 damage, and it still takes 5 hits to kill it (115x4 = 460)

So, to kill the same enemy in 4 hits, not 5, i need a 25% damage bonus, which means that to see any significant difference, i need to be max level on an existing perk.

By comparison, the old shotgun scaling was 10% per perk level, ending at 160% damage, or over double the current scaling amounts.

The berserker gets crapped on even harder:

Base (Doesn't scale)


  • +5% Attack Speed
  • +5% Damage Resistance
  • +10% Movement Speed
  • +25% Bloat Bile Resistance
  • +25% Siren Resistance


Per level:


  • +1% Melee Damage
  • +0.8% Attack Speed
  • +0.6% Movement Speed

Mind you, i don't think the ranged weapons count as "Melee" but i'm not sure, but with the max +25% damage, i wouldn't be able to tell anyways since even on normal it takes several hits for something like the nailgun to actually kill anything slightly threatening. (Hint: they should if they don't, just make it "Berserker weapon damage" like levelling the perk requires)

Long story short, a lot of people are probably going to get driven off by this once it releases fully, it was hard enough, leveling maps notwithstanding, to level a perk to rank 6, but the bonuses were MASSIVELY GAME CHANGING, now, you don't even care unless it's a 5th level or max, and even then you still barely notice.

I see a lot of posts (Like in the sharpshooter thread) about how the game and big enemies should require skill and knowledge of mechanics, but on normal, me dodging and emptying 10+ rounds from an AA12 into the face of a scrake oughta drop him PDQ. But it doesn't, it's new health and the new shotgun damage paired with the new terrible perk scaling means that it's probably still standing and flailing about unless it was already at half health.

A step in the right direction was having the perks start from level 1 with their associated kit (EG: A healing weapon and nade on the medic, a shotgun on support, etc.) but all the other little things are just bad (Removing the cost reductions for your perk weapons, massively nerfing the damage bonus, etc.)

After all, it wasn't the perk scaling that "ruined" the formula in KF1, it was the massively overpowered weapons (Hai, M99, old Xbow, Pipe bombs, etc.) Thinking on it, and as others mentioned (and has been basically confirmed won't happen again) it was mostly sharp having pistol bonuses. (Hello, gunslinger)

So, scale the perks up -now- while theres not a huge pile of weapons to balance, and then focus new weapons around that level of scaling, hell on earth should generally feel like normal or hard with unleveled perks when you're on a max-level perk. Doable, but pretty crazy hard.

Just my probably TL-DR Causing .02
 

silverlighted

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 19, 2013
883
10
0
I hate to put it this way, but KF2 feels free to play as it stands in early access, i keep expecting to see a real-cash shop added with things like a one-time use +100% damage item and such nonsense.
lol I don't share this feeling. At all.

I see a lot of posts (Like in the sharpshooter thread) about how the game and big enemies should require skill and knowledge of mechanics, but on normal, me dodging and emptying 10+ rounds from an AA12 into the face of a scrake oughta drop him PDQ. But it doesn't, it's new health and the new shotgun damage paired with the new terrible perk scaling means that it's probably still standing and flailing about unless it was already at half health.
Your blurb is confusing. Players are criticizing the game design; they believe that there should be advanced mechanics to allow people to be able to take on big enemies solo,regardless of perk (I'm now generalizing quite a bit to condense the arguments) for those clutch moments. Otherwise, meta will just be 1. you have to wait for the sharp/demo to kill the big guys and/or 2. spam AA12. There's no room for technical skill in that.

You want to be able to kill a scrake with AA12 spam. (which for the record, is very possible, so I don't follow it). And any criticisms of the scrake's ability to withstand your spam doesn't mean support needs some attack boosts. It could also just mean that the scrake is arguably too spongy.


So, scale the perks up -now- while theres not a huge pile of weapons to balance, and then focus new weapons around that level of scaling, hell on earth should generally feel like normal or hard with unleveled perks when you're on a max-level perk. Doable, but pretty crazy hard.
Wait, what no? First of all, I don't think HOE with maxlevel perks should feel like Normal/Hard with unleveled perks. I'm not a HOE player, but that doesn't seem right.

And Normal/Hard with unleveled perks is doable...and it's not pretty crazy hard either, so I don't know where you're going with this.




Now, regarding the general topic of your post, I'll say this. I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to compare KF1 and KF2 numbers directly in the way you did. But even presuming the comparison is appropriate, I feel like (read: in my opinion) that TWI may be doing it on purpose if the on-perk damage bonuses do not stand out as much as they did in KF1. It would be to facilitate the effectiveness of off-perk loadouts, which does two things. It aids in the ease of loadout flexibility, and that flexibility opens the doors for more technical gameplay. [For instance, in KF1, if you wanted a katana and an HS, you would perk hop to save money. Here, there are no perk discounts. I feel like reducing the on-perk damage bonuses would be consistent with this design mindset.]
 

Phoenix21891

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2015
17
0
0
Well for starters, the reason the damage bonuses aren't that big this time around is because enemy health doesn't scale up nearly as hard as it used to. Health-wise, everything up to the big baddies is just about as easy to kill on Normal as it is on HoE.

TWI stated that they didn't want bullet sponge enemies because it makes the guns feel weaker, which I agree with. They wanted to avoid a situation in KF1 where many people played on Hard instead of Suicidal/HoE not really because they couldn't handle those difficulties, but because it's not fun when your guns go from feeling punchy and awesome to like mere pea-shooters.

The discounts are gone to facilitate off-perk weapon experimentation, which goes hand-in-hand with the reduced damage bonuses. It is now feasible to use off-perk weapons on Suicidal/HoE and still have them be relatively effective.

It's really fine the way it is now. The way you want it, HoE is inaccessible to a low level character not because the player lacks skill, but because they don't have the necessary stats to play it effectively, which is just bad game design for a shooter. The way the perk bonuses are set up now, the stats really help, but they're not absolutely required to be effective.

Oh an before you call the skills useless, keep in mind that Commando, for instance, has a skill that boosts his perk weapon damage by an extra 20%, meaning a 45% increase at max level. Support can get an extra 10% damage boost for a 35% total. The Support skill at lv10 that gives you a 50% bigger health pool cannot be understated either. Taking everything into account, I'd say the perks in KF2 are actually more powerful than those in KF1, relatively speaking.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
I would say weapons are too weak atm. Anything bigger than gorefasts takes double the effort to kill. And now most zeds have insane speed, and SK and FP are just way too tanky.

After you decap a bloat, it still has like 70% health, but if you really need it to die (such as its blocking the doorway), you have to empty nearly a full mag of the SCAR to his headless body.

Shotguns are totally worthless against sirens and husk unless you are at their face. Which is bad btw, as a slow class to run in their face. Because again, zeds have insane speed now. A crawler/stalker combo can take half your armor, yeah you kill that siren with your DBS, but you get one crawler under you now your armor is instantly gone.

They make trash a lot easier to kill, big medium to big zeds are a lot harder to kill. I think that need a tweak.
 

Shining Wolf

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 13, 2011
879
5
0
I like that perk levels don't mean as much since that means playing on hard where all the custom maps are played won't be as much of a wash as playing as a lrvel 6 in KF1, but the low price perk bonuses are also what make stuff like AA12 on medic so powerful since damage bonuses don't mean much and zeds aren't balanced around weapon scaling. Idk something needs to be changed about perk scaling but I want to be able to play lower difficulties with maxed perks and not be able to totally carry.
 

NNFX

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2014
156
0
0
I like the leveling System much more than the KF1 one.
And Idk why People are complaining about "pointless Skills"
I change Skills all the Time depending on Situation.
(Playing Solo/ Multi, Map, Good Teammates or bad, Loadout, Wave etc.)
And this is Fun, works well and isn`t pointless at all.

And saying the Leveling doesn`t work fast is just wrong too.
I played 160 Hours in one Month (yea Addict) and i already did 98 of the possible 100 Levels of all Perks. This means something like 0.6 Levels in 1 Hour, keeping in Mind, that you get the first Levels much faster than the last ones. 0.6 Levels/ Hour Average is a a decent Number.

Also the Fact that Levels don`t provide as much Bonuses as in KF1 is one of the best Facts about KF2 leveling System at all.
It results in the better usability of off-perk Weapons and the Fact that KF2 is more about Skill than about Perklevel.

TWI just did it the perfect Way and some People just don`t get it. -.-
Stop complaining about Bull****
 

Shining Wolf

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 13, 2011
879
5
0
I would say weapons are too weak atm. Anything bigger than gorefasts takes double the effort to kill. And now most zeds have insane speed, and SK and FP are just way too tanky.

After you decap a bloat, it still has like 70% health, but if you really need it to die (such as its blocking the doorway), you have to empty nearly a full mag of the SCAR to his headless body.

Shotguns are totally worthless against sirens and husk unless you are at their face. Which is bad btw, as a slow class to run in their face. Because again, zeds have insane speed now. A crawler/stalker combo can take half your armor, yeah you kill that siren with your DBS, but you get one crawler under you now your armor is instantly gone.

They make trash a lot easier to kill, big medium to big zeds are a lot harder to kill. I think that need a tweak.
I like the tankiness of the medium zeds now and didn't like that they were so squishy in KF1, especially bloats since they were made worthless with even the 9mm. If supports are the main thing to take out scs and fps, then I view it as a good thing that it takes a while at range to kill medium zeds since commandos and rifle medics can do it much faster and safer. Hunting also one shots sirens and husks at point blank if done successfully and sprinting up to a husk and hunting its head off is probablu one of my favorite moments of this game. I'm not saying not to tweak them at all, but I do like how much time it takes to take out medium zeds. Scrakes are actually fun to fight if doing the running past their shoulder thing and not circle exploiting them. Closest thing to a duel in this game arguably. Everyone piling aa12 rounds on them is a real pitty.

The bloat example probably is part of the point of bloats, although gun butt makes them a lot less deadly as I recently found out. Blocking a hallway is frustrating and feels like a cheap death to me since it's not always clear what needs to be killed to move past them. I don't want bloat health nerfed but I do want something to be done about excessive body blocking. Hell, buff gun butt knockback, idc.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
lol I don't share this feeling. At all.

Now, regarding the general topic of your post, I'll say this. I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to compare KF1 and KF2 numbers directly in the way you did. But even presuming the comparison is appropriate, I feel like (read: in my opinion) that TWI may be doing it on purpose if the on-perk damage bonuses do not stand out as much as they did in KF1. It would be to facilitate the effectiveness of off-perk loadouts, which does two things. It aids in the ease of loadout flexibility, and that flexibility opens the doors for more technical gameplay. [For instance, in KF1, if you wanted a katana and an HS, you would perk hop to save money. Here, there are no perk discounts. I feel like reducing the on-perk damage bonuses would be consistent with this design mindset.]
Sacrificing effectiveness at your role for "Flexibility" is stupid. It doesn't work in MMO's and it doesn't work here at all

My free to play argument is basically that it takes a max level to be even marginally more effective relative to an unleveled perk, where in KF1 you basically started at the equivalent of level 10 and went up that level in effectiveness each rank (EG: 10/20/30/40/50/60% Bonus, not 1/2/3/4/5 etc.)

It made levelling -FEEL- valuable, even without discounts to the weapons for your perk to avoid such perk-hopping shenanigans, it still stands to reason that if i've spent all my life practicing with some half-cocked concotion of a sledgehammer with a 10-gauge in the head of it, and then i hand it to my buddy who has no clue what do with it, that he'll be less effective with it. Or whatever handwavium of choice you prefer.

Ergo, a berserker should be MASSIVELY more dangerous with a melee weapon or berserker weapon, not slightly more dangerous but still needing the same hits to kill anything over a clot. (it does seriously take the same number of shots at perk 0 and perk 10 to kill a scrake for instance as support with the AA12, at 10 headshots on normal, if you hit with all pellets and eat half your health in damage waiting for it to be facing you again so you can shoot it)

I would say weapons are too weak atm. Anything bigger than gorefasts takes double the effort to kill. And now most zeds have insane speed, and SK and FP are just way too tanky.

After you decap a bloat, it still has like 70% health, but if you really need it to die (such as its blocking the doorway), you have to empty nearly a full mag of the SCAR to his headless body.

Shotguns are totally worthless against sirens and husk unless you are at their face. Which is bad btw, as a slow class to run in their face. Because again, zeds have insane speed now. A crawler/stalker combo can take half your armor, yeah you kill that siren with your DBS, but you get one crawler under you now your armor is instantly gone.

They make trash a lot easier to kill, big medium to big zeds are a lot harder to kill. I think that need a tweak.
This "Normal" in terms of speed, is on par with hard/suicidal in KF1, on beginner/normal a demo with an M32 out can outrun even crawlers without being touched in a forward run.

and the thing is, the weapons actually aren't terribly weak, they just never get any better.

Go back to KF1 and use an unleveled support specialist via mutator, then up it to rank 6 and use the same weapon, the difference is insane (Scrakes going down in single shots of the regular shotgun on headshots for instance)

Point being, it doesn't feel like there's any reward for levelling up at the end of the day, i'm only marginally more dangerous in terms of raw damage than an unleveled support on my now 10 support, what sets me aside is my knowledge of the mechanics.

Now, if i had that knowledge and the equivalent of a KF1 Rank 3 support perk (since i'm going on halfway to cap with it) i'd be insanely more dangerous - 7 grenades, 30% more damage, etc. plus extra carry weight i could use to supplant my T3 weapon with another decent weapon (EG: the M4 over the SG500 or boomstick which would be better for laying into the boss up until he burns his last heal, letting me save my AA12 ammo)

Again, you don't really get much of a "reward" for maxing out a perk, it certainly helps, but the difference a skilled player makes with an R0 perk is the same as with an R25 one. And the actual "Skills" are basically just bonuses the old perks had innately with a few exceptions (Like people being able to get a clip of ammo from the support, that's cool)

Non-double-post-edit:

I like the leveling System much more than the KF1 one.
And Idk why People are complaining about "pointless Skills"
I change Skills all the Time depending on Situation.
(Playing Solo/ Multi, Map, Good Teammates or bad, Loadout, Wave etc.)
And this is Fun, works well and isn`t pointless at all.

And saying the Leveling doesn`t work fast is just wrong too.
I played 160 Hours in one Month (yea Addict) and i already did 98 of the possible 100 Levels of all Perks. This means something like 0.6 Levels in 1 Hour, keeping in Mind, that you get the first Levels much faster than the last ones. 0.6 Levels/ Hour Average is a a decent Number.

Also the Fact that Levels don`t provide as much Bonuses as in KF1 is one of the best Facts about KF2 leveling System at all.
It results in the better usability of off-perk Weapons and the Fact that KF2 is more about Skill than about Perklevel.

TWI just did it the perfect Way and some People just don`t get it. -.-
Stop complaining about Bull****
So you like getting zero bonus for 5 levels? +1% damage and +1% speed or whatever isn't much of a bonus, again in something like this (Where it's how fast you react to and properly deal with a threat, rather than mechanically (Seriously, DPS will win all unless you actually have to kill something a specific way)

And if you change through all the skills all the time, then whats the merit of having slowly regenerating health vs. just having 20-50 more flat health? we already have that, it's called the healing syringe, and the regen rate is too slow to matter when even fodder can do more DPS than it heals on the lowest of settings, stopping it from providing any true bonus (killing the thing and then quickhealing will always be better than 1hp per 3s or whatever it is now)

It's pointless, for instance, the only reason to -not- use the supplier perk, is because your team doesn't take ammo from you ever, or you're playing solo (where the barely noticeable 20% shotgun ammo is a minor boon) and this kind of logic holds true in basically any game.

Also, i don't play berserker to run around with an AA12, i play berserker to run around screaming gibberish and smacking ugly things with a Boltcutter on a stick while giggling about things like "Shagging" and "DOSH" If i want to shotgun things, i'll switch to a support.

Because the thing is, if a berserker is basically just as effective as a support is with an AA12 on large targets, why even have the support? Or why even have specific weapon perks to begin with? Right now you could totally remove all the existing perks from the game, and with very few exceptions, we'd hardly even notice. Waves would last the same, enemies would die just as fast,and the boss? he'd be just as hard.

Because unless -EVERYONE- on your team is Perk 25 they make so little of an actual effective difference in terms of both raw data and skill it's laughable

It's nowhere near perfect.
 
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outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
Because the thing is, if a berserker is basically just as effective as a support is with an AA12 on large targets, why even have the support? Or why even have specific weapon perks to begin with? Right now you could totally remove all the existing perks from the game, and with very few exceptions, we'd hardly even notice. Waves would last the same, enemies would die just as fast,and the boss? he'd be just as hard.
Thats why people spam medics, some buy AA12, some buy pluv, some buy SCAR, then every one with one or more medic guns. The only public random teams that survive long enough to see fleshpound on HOE are always consist of at least 3 medics. (oh except the game where someone dupe 30+ AA12 on the ground and everyone just spam like crazy)

Because like you said, you dont need to be a support to use AA12 effectively. The perk bonus is nearly non-existence.
 
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Aleflippy

Grizzled Veteran
Sep 18, 2012
2,324
113
63
Belgium
I won't do a fully fledged comment on what you said because many others already did. So I will just say that I agree about perk stats,they should be a little bit higher.
 

silverlighted

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 19, 2013
883
10
0
Sacrificing effectiveness at your role for "Flexibility" is stupid. It doesn't work in MMO's and it doesn't work here at all
You're misinterpreting my argument. I'm not referencing a Jack of all Trades build vs Min/Maxing, or anything like that. That doesn't even make sense here lol.

I don't believe that the damage values at present are ineffective or insufficient (zerker notwithstanding).

If the present leveling system were changed so that there'd be greater on-perk damage bonuses, then the game would have to be balanced around that. Is the game on X difficulty reasonably challenging for Y Level, super challenge for Z level? Etc. With decreased on-perk bonuses, this becomes less of an issue. You don't have to feel compelled to level up considerably in order to play harder difficulties (KF is not an MMO, and I don't feel like I should have to level up to play a certain difficulty).

(Note, I used the word considerably there, because I'm still respecting the fact that KF2 HAS a level progression system. I also acknowledge that there do seem to be soft perk level suggestions for the different difficulties, and I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing. However, these suggestions tend to be tied to specific perk abilities, not the passive ones...]

And actually, I just realized that your response kinda made me move away from the direction I was even going with when I talked about flexibility. If the game is trying to foster combos by using a myriad of different perk weapons, it makes sense to reduce that barrier a little bit by reducing the impact of on-perk passive bonuses.
This does not necessarily weaken the player. Again, "I don't believe that the damage values at present are ineffective or insufficient (zerker notwithstanding)."

But that's just my opinion. Suppose the damage values are not good atm. Scrakes are too damn spongey. Again, the solution does not necessarily lie in increasing the passive bonuses....it may make more sense to tweak the damn scrake.

My free to play argument is basically that it takes a max level to be even marginally more effective relative to an unleveled perk, where in KF1 you basically started at the equivalent of level 10 and went up that level in effectiveness each rank (EG: 10/20/30/40/50/60% Bonus, not 1/2/3/4/5 etc.)
The free2play argument implies that at present you feel underpowered in the game with your stats and that you could potentially spend money to jack up your augments.

That's fine, but that IS your opinion. Which is why, I simply stated that I don't share that feeling at all.

It made levelling -FEEL- valuable, even without discounts to the weapons for your perk to avoid such perk-hopping shenanigans, it still stands to reason that if i've spent all my life practicing with some half-cocked concotion of a sledgehammer with a 10-gauge in the head of it, and then i hand it to my buddy who has no clue what do with it, that he'll be less effective with it. Or whatever handwavium of choice you prefer.
This is an understandable concern. Though I personally don't care. I like that a person does not feel like they have to be super leveled. Again, I think it's nice that you don't have to level up excessively just to play at harder difficulties, that your effectiveness as a player is relatively less dependent on passive boosts based on level. That stuff about "spending your life practicing", those sort of realism-based arguments don't really mean much to me either.

Ergo, a berserker should be MASSIVELY more dangerous with a melee weapon or berserker weapon, not slightly more dangerous but still needing the same hits to kill anything over a clot.
Consensus is that zerker is underpowered. Making the zerker more viable could involve more perk bonuses (that I may be alright with). Alternatively, there are other ways to go about this than just the passive boosts.

(it does seriously take the same number of shots at perk 0 and perk 10 to kill a scrake for instance as support with the AA12, at 10 headshots on normal, if you hit with all pellets and eat half your health in damage waiting for it to be facing you again so you can shoot it.
This doesn't bother me. I'm glad that I don't have to level up to support 10 just to take out a scrake safely. Instead, I can rely on my own ability in fighting it. (No, you do not have to eat half your health in damage waiting for it to be facing you again so you can shoot it. lol)

I continue to state this. You stated:
hell on earth should generally feel like normal or hard with unleveled perks when you're on a max-level perk. Doable, but pretty crazy hard.
I disagree with this, completely. Both in terms of how KF1 and KF2 are right now, and also from a theoretical perspective (i.e. HOE should be a lot harder than described).
 
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Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
The problem i have, can be boiled down to this:

Why bother having perks to begin with if they basically do absolutely nothing?

one can argue that some bonuses (ZED Time extension, Shotgun passthrough, healing power, etc) Are all quite good and quite necessary, but at the same time, a group of skilled players at perk 0 can smash through hell on earth

"Off-perking" should be a serious decision, not something you just do, i mean, in KF1 people off-perked the M79 all the time, but if you weren't a demo, shooting a wee bit too close to yourself meant your death more often than not.

And not only that, but in the hands of a demo it would blow up a full trash wave if aimed properly, but it would leave almost everything standing if you weren't one (and you played above beginner)

Thus, my problem with the current state of the game, i can pick medic and effectively be a more effective support because the damage i lose isn't that significant but gaining the movespeed, poison nades, and boost to healing skills lets me not only use the shotguns better, but also lets me actually be a "Support"

This is stupid. The medic right now is basically the old SS in being a do-all class.

More or less, i want to see the perks feel as good as they used to, it was a lot of hard work and effort getting up to that 5m+ Damage and such to get that shiny gold icon, but once you had it, it was a serious difference in power

Right now i see the level up notification and go "Only X more to go before i care" where X is the number of levels remaining to the next 5-point skill.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
Thus, my problem with the current state of the game, i can pick medic and effectively be a more effective support because the damage i lose isn't that significant but gaining the movespeed, poison nades, and boost to healing skills lets me not only use the shotguns better, but also lets me actually be a "Support"

This is stupid. The medic right now is basically the old SS in being a do-all class.
I have to say this right now, even if you nerf the speed to ~15%, remove bile resistance, reduce armor medic can get, medic will still be a better support simply because the perk bonus is nearly non-existence.

Siren/husk still takes 2 shots to decap. Scrake and FP you save 8-10 shots yes, but if you are left alone, you have to reload anyway. If not, that 8-10 shots doesnt matter. You cant do damage if you are dead.
 

yunless

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 21, 2015
5
0
0
I went through the thread and had a lot to say but I won't pour more oil and instead just state the main things I wanted to say.

A lot of my friends were reluctant to play KF1 because of the leveling system. Stairs are always better to climb than crawling up a side of a building. I am *FOR* the gradual leveling system.

I do agree that the raw stat bonuses could use a more significant increase.

I find the argument that level zeroes can clear HOE irresponsible. What makes the perk unique are the skills you get from playing them. And these skills are taken from the massive unique bonuses you get when you hit high levels in KF1. Sure, there are questionable skills that could use clarification or just plain buffs, but without the ones not mentioned here (Armament, Tactical Reload, Call Out to name a few) I think it would be extremely frustrating to play even suicidal.

I really, personally don't like people playing level 0-9 perks in suicidal servers.

Weapon off-perking has always been present. The difference is, you perform badly, like really suckish, with those weapons. I find the medic example bad, because mediguns were made to be light and less powerful, kinda a meta-double-edged sword. Because they are light, they don't hit hard, but because they are light, you can carry weapons that do better, even if they're bad in your hands. (I could get some flak for this vague explanation but its getting kinda long. =p )

Zerk is underpowered. *nods*


Hope I didn't infuriate anyone with my personal thoughts, but please do non-aggressively discuss if you feel you have something to say about anything. =)

*rainbows and sparkly dust exit*
 

[PCTB] Maverick

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2015
63
0
0
UK
I don't want bloat health nerfed but I do want something to be done about excessive body blocking. Hell, buff gun butt knockback, idc.
Increase bloat knock back from melee attack when the head is detached?

Getting killed because a headless bloat was blocking a door does feel wayyyyy too cheap.
 

Curunir

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 26, 2011
349
38
0
Bulgaria
Speaking of bloats bodyblocking, I felt that they 'bled out' and fell down much faster after getting the critical headshot in KF1.
 

UserSD

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 8, 2012
424
14
0
Guy has a point. The levelling system might work, but it is pretty dull. Since they wanted to make zed health consistent, offensive bonuses scale very poorly with level. Perks aren't nothing spectacular either, and many of them are simple stat boosts.

IMO, they might as well have scraped stat boosts altogether and have each perk introduce a new mechanic to the class.
 

Curunir

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 26, 2011
349
38
0
Bulgaria
I too feel that perks are not differentiated enough, partly because of the lack of significant boosts with on-perk weapons.

I understand that they didn't want to just scale enemy health but this does lead to perks feeling bland and samey. Indeed, when you hit that gold icon in KF1 you knew you were now wielding considerably more kickass than you were before. This feeling seems to be lacking here.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
I too feel that perks are not differentiated enough, partly because of the lack of significant boosts with on-perk weapons.

I understand that they didn't want to just scale enemy health but this does lead to perks feeling bland and samey. Indeed, when you hit that gold icon in KF1 you knew you were now wielding considerably more kickass than you were before. This feeling seems to be lacking here.
Mechanically, you don't just have to scale enemy health.

For instance, the mutator i made for KF1 (Hellfire) Had a custom husk in it, and i was in the process of making that husk only killable after being headshot on hell on earth difficulty

It's health was the same, it's just that it would totally ignore body hits until you popped it's head off

Little changes like that (EG: Bits of armor on the FP one has to knock off to increase the damage it takes) let you make the perks massively more powerful (Up to and surpassing double of what they currently are, without making the game too easy at higher difficulties.

Then the "Skill" argument will make more sense, because right now, every enemy is dealt with in roughly the same way.