Just played a bit of RO1...WOW

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melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
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Yes. It does make sense. When you make the gun mechanics faster and more user-friendly, you allow players with better aim speed and mouse skill to be much more effective and dangerous on the move (as soldiers with good shooting skill would be in real life). Waiting for sway to go down or for ADS view to come up in RO is not skill or effort. It's just learned behavior.

Learned behaviour is absolutely a valid component in pvp/fps style game. Its the next level up from sheer hand eye coordination/reaction time which is akin to learning to kick a ball accurately, wheras theres usually a whole extra layer of skills and tactics associated with games. Then add to this real time decision making with consequences and you get depth AND skill. In RO's case, you learn to account for sway, to anticipate someone's movements knowing their limitations, decide to hip or not because it takes time, which stance to use, moving into particular positions to take advantage of your strengths. Speeding everything up just devolves it into who sees who first and who has the best hand eye coordination/reflexes and takes out a bunch of depth. RO1 felt more tactical and like each player had to make high skill decisions and interact with the game with a minimum skill level beyond simple point and click mechanics.

Sway isn't random, it's based on momentum. You adjust your aim for where the gun is moving to and shoot. Bullet dip makes you judge the distance correctly. Recoil makes you use burst fire (smaller window of accurate shots, make them count. Same with ROF.), or use different stances. Stances have + and - elements. You trade manoeuvrability for visibility and easier recoil.

When a game puts several decisions into a players hands you get strategy, tactics and depth. In RO2 its usually a case of point and click or run, point and click because its far too forgiving for mistakes. What separates good players from average isn't just aim but decisions you make, and the more forgiving a game is the less the decisions matter or more simplistic it ends up.

It just depends what you want from your realism style shooters, in addition to what you expect from an RO game. I like all sorts of games though, and I'm sure I'll find stuff to like about RO2. It just doesn't do it for me from a tactical realism perspective
 
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Nebfer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 23, 2006
384
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I think I'll be joining you, reinstall RO1.
No point playing RO2 right now, just got out of a game with 3 bolts guys and all the rest special weapons.
I don't like it anymore, waiting for mods and mutator.

Well RO1 was almost as bad, on a full 32 player server playing the Koningsburg platz map, it was perfectly possible to have just a single bolt action rifle in the entirety of the map. With all the other slots filled with SMGs, MGs, and semis, and a few tanks.

So I do not understand why you guys are whining about the bolt actions being to few, RO1 had a lot of Automatics compared to the bolts on a number of maps. At lest until the servers got bumped to 64 players.

One thing that RO2 seems to lack is more varied numbers of weapons per map, in RO1, you had maps like Kaukasus which only had 4 automatics per team, then you have Lyes Krovy which the soviet team could have entirely automatic weapons (and the Germans had more than half).

In RO2 is much more static in this regards.
 

CaptHawkeye

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 23, 2009
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Gotta love the logic of some pro RO2 posters. "They made the game easier therefore its harder". Removed the training wheels? They just made it more simplistic and like a generic FPS game. I can get that in my other FPSs and they do that whole gameplay style better anyway. Part of what made RO1 decent was you had to actually make an effort and the kills just felt more rewarding.

RO2 has bullet drop and actual ballistics. RO1 had kill scan guns. Case closed.

I don't hate RO2, but these people who didn't even like the first game are just stirring things up. Accept that people liked RO1 and found it more tactical, or whatever else they liked about it. RO2 isn't bad, its just not quite an RO game imo. I could like it as a stand alone game, shouldn't have been called RO2 though

I had no problem with Ostfront. I was able to accept its weaknesses however. Not hide from them. Claiming that RO2 is a simpler game isn't a matter of opinion, it's just flat out wrong.
 

melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
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RO2 has bullet drop and actual ballistics. RO1 had kill scan guns. Case closed.

Seriously? RO1 had actual ballistics that affected the game in a way that people had to account for. You had to lead the target and allow for drop. In RO2 its more about allowing for ping and bullets hardly dip at all
 

vyyye

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 13, 2011
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Seriously? RO1 had actual ballistics that affected the game in a way that people had to account for. You had to lead the target and allow for drop. In RO2 its more about allowing for ping and bullets hardly dip at all
Can't speak for RO1 but at the ranges you fire at in RO2 you aren't supposed to see an awful lot of bullet dip.
 

Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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Seriously? RO1 had actual ballistics that affected the game in a way that people had to account for. You had to lead the target and allow for drop. In RO2 its more about allowing for ping and bullets hardly dip at all

Because rifle bullets drop less than a foot at 200m IRL, and your rifle is zeroed in to 200m when you spawn?

I mean, that's the whole point of having adjustable iron sights. The gun compensates for bullet drop for you, allowing you to keep the same sight picture and not obscure the target with your sights.
 
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Nenjin

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 30, 2009
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I'm not killing people on Pavlov's house from the Tower of Doom at more than 175 meters. I think that's close to the average maximum range most people are going to engage at, short of snipers and tanks. The bullet drop is more or less insignificant, it's the lead times you have to account for.
 

LMAOser

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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In my opinion, RO2 is a major improvement over RO1 in almost every single way, and I really enjoy the game. Of course, there are some negatives, such as the Mkb and the technical issues.
 

Karnatakapunk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 18, 2011
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But what lead?
In the paper it says true to life balistics, well thats not true.Ther
There is no calculation on the projectil movement, instead what it does is to push the hit boxes foward the body when runing to simulate the lead you have to make when running..
thats a HUGE diference.. and thats why the close range hit boxes are all ****d up.
And before u tell me im wrong go check the aimbotes vids on youtube, and take your own opinions from that..



 
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Reise

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 1, 2006
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Maine, US
But what lead?
In the paper it says true to life balistics, well thats not true.Ther
There is no calculation on the projectil movement, instead what it does is to push the hit boxes foward the body when runing to simulate the lead you have to make when running..
thats a HUGE diference.. and thats why the close range hit boxes are all ****d up.
And before u tell me im wrong go check the aimbotes vids on youtube, and take your own opinions from that..

Nah, bullets in RO and RO2 have calculated travel times and trajectories. Test it some time in single player.

As for RO: Ostfront being better? Not in my opinion.

Ostfront has had its time, and its mechanics at this point show off their limitations more than their innovations. Some people may interpret the slow movement, slow aiming, and jerky shooting as realistic, but the fact of the matter is it was only MORE realistic than other shooters at the time.

Things needed refinement and a second look and in RO2 we got it. Sure some things aren't perfect but it's all a step in the right direction and will be polished to a mirror-like shine before long.

That said, you won't ever catch me crawling back to servers in Ostfront filled with crickets and people who can't embrace and support a new thing. It's been 6 years, I think that's enough.
 

The Algerian

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 29, 2011
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Well RO1 was almost as bad, on a full 32 player server playing the Koningsburg platz map, it was perfectly possible to have just a single bolt action rifle in the entirety of the map. With all the other slots filled with SMGs, MGs, and semis, and a few tanks.


That is just not what i remember from ro1, especially regarding Koenigzplatz.
For 5 times i would get killed there, only would have been from special weapon.
In RO2, it's the other way around.
 

>< f4ct0r...13

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 2, 2011
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California
there are some things i like about RO2 (recoil of SMGs for one) but theres alot more things that i dont like that RO1 did better. difference is clear

RO1:realism tactical shooter
RO2:hardcore shooter

hahahahahaahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaaahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaahahHAAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDHDHDDHDHAFHHAHAAHDHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 

Wtattearp

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 3, 2011
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When I first joined the RO2 beta I got a feeling that something was off and didn't feel right.
As it turns out I didn't quite remember what RO1 really felt like because when I just now played it a bit, I was wowed.

In short, RO2 has nothing on RO1.

RO1 just feels so much more logical, more realistic. Better.
Just from the top of my head:

  • The time to iron sights is just perfect, it seems realistic and makes close encounters more about hip shooting or melee instead of ultra fast stop, ultra fast IS with no sway and fire.

  • Recoil is easy to control when prone and with support, when standing it is much more difficult. This is realistic and makes careful positioning more effective than running and gunning.
  • Sway feels natural and is also dependant on position.
  • No zoom, it just feels right without zoom and it also makes concealment work.
  • Ragdolls are much better in RO1, actually the best I've ever seen.
Sure, there are some details that RO2 does better and some new features that are welcome, but when it comes to the core gameplay RO2 really feels more like a BF game than a true successor to Red Orchestra.

It's really a shame :(
Maybe I should not have played RO1 again, it really kills RO2 for me...

you are clearly a fan boy.... Ro1 ragdolls are the worst i have ever seen.... i agree with some things you have said but i honostly think you havent even given ro2 a chance and you are too quick to dismiss it because you dont like it
 

Nikita

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2011
1,874
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In short, RO2 has nothing on RO1.

RO1 just feels so much more logical, more realistic. Better.
Just from the top of my head:

  • The time to iron sights is just perfect, it seems realistic and makes close encounters more about hip shooting or melee instead of ultra fast stop, ultra fast IS with no sway and fire.
  • Recoil is easy to control when prone and with support, when standing it is much more difficult. This is realistic and makes careful positioning more effective than running and gunning.
  • Sway feels natural and is also dependant on position.
  • No zoom, it just feels right without zoom and it also makes concealment work.
...RO2 really feels more like a BF game than a true successor to Red Orchestra.

I went back to try Ostfront again last week, and I had precisely the opposite reaction. Picking up that k98 felt unbelievably awkward, and I swear the barrel was trying to trace the outline of a cartoon Christmas tree with the sway. Bolting was robotic, and aiming the weapon in iron sights actually made me feel like I was holding a feather, not a heavy rifle. And don't even get me started on movement...

And playing as an Engineer on Arad I got killed by that dastardly insta-bailing tank crewman and his trusty Walther. :\

Honestly, RO2 is indeed a spiritual successor. Some new additions do change the experience, but the core gameplay is the same. Plenty of hipshots and melee kills on Pavlov's House and Apartments.

The only point I come remotely close to agreeing with you on is zoom--shift zoom could be tweaked down a bit, but iron sights zoom is actually fairly unnoticable and doesn't provide the same spotting advantages that shift-zoom does.

In all seriousness, I'd be less happy with a graphics-updated clone of RO1 than with the current product. HoS isn't perfect, but it brings some new innovative features to the table and should never even come close to being mentioned in the same sentence as the words "another BF".
 

psgchisolm

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 10, 2011
41
7
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RO2 has bullet drop and actual ballistics. RO1 had kill scan guns. Case closed.
Sorry whut? There have been times I was on the sniper server on a HUGE map My bullets dropped more than half the players body at the range I shot from. Not to mention waiting to see the bullet hit and adjusting. You're just never seen where you're rifle was hitting from where you shot.