Remember, most AT guns had some sort of shield so they wouldn't be *completely* exposed to fire.
Just an idea for increased AT
- Thread starter rmrusher
- Start date
Remember, most AT guns had some sort of shield so they wouldn't be *completely* exposed to fire.
Why is that a bad thing? I once tried to play Commander, asked on VOIP if some people could play SL to mark arty for me (of course no one did), and then had to put up with my dumbass teammates complaining about arty not dropping where they needed it (because I had to run around and mark it myself) before I ragequit.
And then my newb team assumed that I was TKing because they were dying in arty salvos and they thought it was friendly arty. It tells you who killed you in the top-right for goodness' sake.
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What about an "AT-Gun package" ?
A package like a RO1 Satchel, that would be grabbed by AT-gun crew at the round start. They could then go somwhere, on even ride on a halftruck, disembark, find a nice, camuflaged place, throw the package there and it would... turn into a PAK-40 or a 45mm gun. Tada !
It would have to be done during first X minutes of the round (to prevent players from hunting for tanks with a gun "in the pocket" for a whoole game).
Te X time could vary with the map size. On maps like Orel it could be several minutes, on small maps something like a 1 minute. After this time the unactivated packages would be useless.
After a gun is "unpacked" it could be still moved, though veeery slooowly - you could push it to make corrections to gun position or you could rotate it slowly, but it would be not suitable for moving larger distances (too slow).
Basically, you could go somwhere and put there an AT gun at a round start - ANYWHERE where you can get in allowed time. And you have an AT-gun ambush. The tanks would have no idea to expect a gun.
It's of course less "realistic" - graphically - than an AT gun embarkable to a halftruck and towed somwhere, but still better than stationary guns (even with semi-random positions) - and really very easy to code. You don't need to separately code the embarking, towing, setting up - just code a package (taking some GFX available in the gam already) that can be thrown exactly like a sachel charge and - if the time limit is not exceeded - it spawns an AT gun where it lands. That's all.
But to make it really usefull - the AT gun itself should be able to be pushed/moved at least a little by the crew, so they can rotate and position it carefully after it spawns from the package.
P.S. And if you colud choose between some camouflaged variants of the gun - covered with some bushes - instead of a single bare one... would be even better.... Tanks would have to watch for any unusual changes in map foilage .
Then make a few almost identical maps only with some little different variants of foliage (a single bush here or there, some less or some more bushes there) that would be loaded randomly, so players would have harder time remembering the map and noticing camouflaged items. Maybe it's possible to randomise positions of some bushes on a single map (just like the AT-Gun positions were randomised on DH maps) - would be even better.
A package like a RO1 Satchel, that would be grabbed by AT-gun crew at the round start. They could then go somwhere, on even ride on a halftruck, disembark, find a nice, camuflaged place, throw the package there and it would... turn into a PAK-40 or a 45mm gun
. Tada ! It would have to be done during first X minutes of the round (to prevent players from hunting for tanks with a gun "in the pocket" for a whoole game).
Te X time could vary with the map size. On maps like Orel it could be several minutes, on small maps something like a 1 minute. After this time the unactivated packages would be useless.
After a gun is "unpacked" it could be still moved, though veeery slooowly - you could push it to make corrections to gun position or you could rotate it slowly, but it would be not suitable for moving larger distances (too slow).
Basically, you could go somwhere and put there an AT gun at a round start - ANYWHERE where you can get in allowed time. And you have an AT-gun ambush
. The tanks would have no idea to expect a gun.It's of course less "realistic" - graphically - than an AT gun embarkable to a halftruck and towed somwhere, but still better than stationary guns (even with semi-random positions) - and really very easy to code. You don't need to separately code the embarking, towing, setting up - just code a package (taking some GFX available in the gam already) that can be thrown exactly like a sachel charge and - if the time limit is not exceeded - it spawns an AT gun where it lands. That's all
. But to make it really usefull - the AT gun itself should be able to be pushed/moved at least a little by the crew, so they can rotate and position it carefully after it spawns from the package.
P.S. And if you colud choose between some camouflaged variants of the gun - covered with some bushes - instead of a single bare one... would be even better...
. Tanks would have to watch for any unusual changes in map foilage .Then make a few almost identical maps only with some little different variants of foliage (a single bush here or there, some less or some more bushes there) that would be loaded randomly, so players would have harder time remembering the map and noticing camouflaged items
. Maybe it's possible to randomise positions of some bushes on a single map (just like the AT-Gun positions were randomised on DH maps) - would be even better.
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If it was obsolete, would they kept using them untill the end of the war is what you have to ask yourself. And they did.
They were availlable in great numbers, in Stalingrad (AT-rifles).
They could actually target the optics and make operating ANY tank a living hell (even the mighty KingTiger...).
I'm not even mentioning that they could take out a PzIV for real...
You have to understand Russian tactics though.
Instead of falling back to their own lines (when their position was taken) they went behind enemy lines. Attacking a Pz III or Pz IV or a StuG from the rear is not hard.
Germans didn't mention "Gangster tactics" for nothing.
F
Field Marshal Rommel
Guest
Nah that is just an imitation of the Nebelwerfer which saw combat first.2Lt.Horvath [6th AB] said:
It was. Look here:
Except that for both vehicles the newer versions had a 50 mm rear (making them impenetrable by the PTR AT-rifle)
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They also have a very thin top (11mm).
I'll make some photo's (no scanner) from David Glantz's book with some details about AT-rifle use in Stalingrad later.
P.S. a blind tank is useless. And they only got a limited supply of periscopes in a tank ata given time.
AT-rifles were not obsolete.
P.P.S. bolt-on armour started in sept 1942 (ausf F/8) and didn't reach Stalingrad, they went to the Africa Corps instead. 80mm and upgraded side armour was even later (ausf G).
In Stalingrad they had the "30mm side/rear armour" version
I'll make some photo's (no scanner) from David Glantz's book with some details about AT-rifle use in Stalingrad later.
P.S. a blind tank is useless. And they only got a limited supply of periscopes in a tank ata given time.
AT-rifles were not obsolete.
P.P.S. bolt-on armour started in sept 1942 (ausf F/8) and didn't reach Stalingrad, they went to the Africa Corps instead. 80mm and upgraded side armour was even later (ausf G).
In Stalingrad they had the "30mm side/rear armour" version
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Normal rifle is enough for that and with less than 1/4 of the weight.
PTRS was good for lightly armored vehicles like troop carriers and mg emplacements et al. but not against tanks except for the very beginning of the war.
F
Field Marshal Rommel
Guest
So do soviet tanks...
This is an ROII deficiency. If this game were actually detailed we would be able to close slits/viewports to protect the armorglass and/or periscopes. In addition if the main sight were destroyed the German tanks would be able to use this:
[URL="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49640&highlight=panzer+sight"][url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49640&highlight=panzer+sight[/URL][/URL]
Incorrect. Look here:
Incorrect. The Panzer III J or J
Yup, I stand corrected about the rear armour. But anyways:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III :
"
Armour
The Panzer III Ausf. A through C had 15 millimetres (0.59 in) of homogeneous steel armor on all sides with 10 millimetres (0.39 in) on the top and 5 millimetres (0.20 in) on the bottom. This was quickly determined to be insufficient, and was upgraded to 30 millimetres (1.18 in) on the front, sides and rear in the Ausf. D, E, F, and G models, with the H model having a second 30-millimetre (1.18 in) layer of face-hardened steel applied to the front and rear hull. The Ausf. J model had a solid 50-millimetre (1.97 in) plate on the front and rear, while the Ausf. J
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III :
"
Armour
The Panzer III Ausf. A through C had 15 millimetres (0.59 in) of homogeneous steel armor on all sides with 10 millimetres (0.39 in) on the top and 5 millimetres (0.20 in) on the bottom. This was quickly determined to be insufficient, and was upgraded to 30 millimetres (1.18 in) on the front, sides and rear in the Ausf. D, E, F, and G models, with the H model having a second 30-millimetre (1.18 in) layer of face-hardened steel applied to the front and rear hull. The Ausf. J model had a solid 50-millimetre (1.97 in) plate on the front and rear, while the Ausf. J
This is an awesome idea!What about an "AT-Gun package" ?
A package like a RO1 Satchel, that would be grabbed by AT-gun crew at the round start. They could then go somwhere, on even ride on a halftruck, disembark, find a nice, camuflaged place, throw the package there and it would... turn into a PAK-40 or a 45mm gun
It would have to be done during first X minutes of the round (to prevent players from hunting for tanks with a gun "in the pocket" for a whoole game).
Te X time could vary with the map size. On maps like Orel it could be several minutes, on small maps something like a 1 minute. After this time the unactivated packages would be useless.
After a gun is "unpacked" it could be still moved, though veeery slooowly - you could push it to make corrections to gun position or you could rotate it slowly, but it would be not suitable for moving larger distances (too slow).
Basically, you could go somwhere and put there an AT gun at a round start - ANYWHERE where you can get in allowed time. And you have an AT-gun ambush
It's of course less "realistic" - graphically - than an AT gun embarkable to a halftruck and towed somwhere, but still better than stationary guns (even with semi-random positions) - and really very easy to code. You don't need to separately code the embarking, towing, setting up - just code a package (taking some GFX available in the gam already) that can be thrown exactly like a sachel charge and - if the time limit is not exceeded - it spawns an AT gun where it lands. That's all
But to make it really usefull - the AT gun itself should be able to be pushed/moved at least a little by the crew, so they can rotate and position it carefully after it spawns from the package.
Please, please, no more prototypes!
Actually, it doesn't take much to reproduce an AT-gun model (or even buy one). Though I think it would take much more time and resources to create algorithms for mechanics and interaction with players (although they could reuse the mechanics of tanks. With a bit of additional work that is... Treat it like a special case of open topped armoured vehicle object perhaps? With sides open? Dunno). It would be awesome if we had an ability to use those guns, but only if they could be deployed by commander before the battle (Oh, how I wish it could be done with HMGs...) and if tanks had limited reinforcements. That, or make ATGs moveable (even more work), so when it's spotted, it could be relocated (only low calibre guns like 57mm ZIS-2 or 5cm PaK 38 and lower)
ATGs would only work on bigger maps I'm afraid. And would not work with current ridiculous artillery calling system. To my knowledge, only Yanks used arty-on-demand (guided by spotter planes) to attack "that precise spot" (1944+).
Forgive me Teufel Hund, but this generalization is simpy not true. How would you explain the German need of pulling 88s platoons to the frontline in order to deal with Soviet KV-type tanks or early T-34s, duplicating SVT rifle design, copying US Bazookas, scavenging for Soviet PPSh submachineguns or (according to one of the hypothesis) using Edward Stecke's (Polish engineer) delayed blowback pathent no. 20103 to develop their MG-42? I could go on with the list forever. In my opinion German technological advantage began after conquering half of the Europe and using projects and designs of scientists and engineers from various parts of the region.
Of course I can't argue about the tank armour quality being superior to Soviet, AFV cannons (late Tiger 88s having superior ballistic and penetration values to IS-2 120mm cannon), or the Stuka (during the first stage of the war) and Focke-Wulf planes (until Mustangs and late Spitfires emerged), but at the early stage of the war, German technology was inferior to countries like France, UK and soviet union. Hell, even Kar98k required longer time to chamber a round than British Lee-Enfield. It's the innovative strategy and tactical warfare that was their strength. Tank tactics that everyone (including French and UK) thought was wrong. Utilizing tank armies to cut off the defenders from their supplies, attack HQs and undefended artillery unit concentrations (a digression - the Nazi Germany lacked artillery units for the whole war. That's why they used Stuka planes as a substitute. Brilliance born of necessity)... The ignorance and lack of initiative of Mr. Chamberlain, and of course (that's my personal favourite) the complete lack of reaction of Polish allies to Nazi aggression of September the 1st, 1939.
If you ask me, I'd say that German technology was at its peak only after '43. I mean, they couldn't even properly prepare the 6th army for the Russian winter in Stalingrad'42. And in '39, their best armoured home made tank was PzKpfw III, with large (and I mean large) quantities of Czech-made PzKpfW35(t) and PzKpfW38(t) tanks. What they had apart of Mark III? A puny PzKpfW I with dual machineguns, PzKpfW II with 20mm auto cannon and a few of paper armoured Mark IVs with short barrel 75mm gun. Even 7,92mm kb Ur could penetrate that. Not to mention outstanding Swedish Bofors 37mm AT guns. The Soviets in 1941 had KV-1, KV-2 and T-34s. Sure most of their tanks were T-26s, T-28s, BTs, large quantity of recon tanks and tankettes, T-35 abominations and other tank imitations, but I bet if Stalin wasn't so eager to hit the Jerries first (=concentrating the majority of his frontline troops near the western border, and having all entrenchments, fortifications and minefields dismantled), Hitler would have a surprisingly short Barbarossa that would've ended in Reichstag. Not that I like Stalin, as he was the same or even worse murderer than Hitler.
Now, if we look more to the west a year earlier, the French had their Somua S-35s, the mobile fortresses Char B1s and the Brits had Matildas II (Entering: the mighty PaK 36 "Anklopf"). French and British doctrine dictated the tanks to be spreaded amongst the infantry units and this was their doom as the Nazis attacked with concentrated armoured spearheads, avoiding the Maginot's line. Allied tanks were superior, but were surprised and overwhelmed by the Jerry tank numbers.
Yeah, with that I fully agree. Wunderwaffe. Nazis made some progress in nightvision systems and luckily they didn't made so well. What would be disastrous, is if they had finished the research of the atomic bomb before the '45. My God... Just think about it. Our second (if not first) language would be German and we would all be working in one of IG Farben or Krupp facilities as bloody slaves... And who would free us if countries like UK, US, France or even Soviet Union were conquered? It's a good material for a screenplay though...
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Several sources used to make the following wiki about the myth of "Blitzkrieg" which also explains how the German warproduction worked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg
It explains the German wartime economy and why they had to conquer western Europe first. Mainly to get wartime production going.
Not going into details myself. You can read the most important info there...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg
It explains the German wartime economy and why they had to conquer western Europe first. Mainly to get wartime production going.
Not going into details myself. You can read the most important info there...
![2Lt.Horvath [6th AB]](/data/avatars/s/36/36264.jpg?1568638684){kind=avatar}
The simple point is RO2 doesn't show a realistic portrayal of armoured combat and armour vs infantry. Instead we have a couple of At Rifles (even Germans) shooting for half an hour, and then if the other tank hasn't destroyed the other then an engineer runs in and blows it up.
This is basically World at War for christ's sake. Germans had Panzer Fausts and the magnetic AT mine, the Russians were simply out classed. I keep saying this but I'm sure a lot of people would prefer it to be slightly unbalanced for a realism and historical edge. Instead this game just throws all of that out the window in more ways than just AT. Sorry about the rant.
This is basically World at War for christ's sake. Germans had Panzer Fausts and the magnetic AT mine, the Russians were simply out classed. I keep saying this but I'm sure a lot of people would prefer it to be slightly unbalanced for a realism and historical edge. Instead this game just throws all of that out the window in more ways than just AT. Sorry about the rant.
![[TORO]Patosentado](/data/avatars/s/35/35970.jpg?1568638684){kind=avatar}
AT rifles were useless in their intended role by 1941... they were used as the nowadays knew as "anti-materiel rifles"...
Infantry Vs tank tactics were mines, bazookas and makeshift weapons such as Molotov cocktails or Gammon grenades... that could be an "extra" weapon for any assault o rifleman at some level... an "upgrade"...
Infantry Vs tank tactics were mines, bazookas and makeshift weapons such as Molotov cocktails or Gammon grenades... that could be an "extra" weapon for any assault o rifleman at some level... an "upgrade"...
I still like having the AT rifle, even if it's too effective. The Russians have a paper-thin tank as it is and not enough AP ammo, while the Germans have a tank with a monster cannon and excellent armor.