I've decided: I don't like RO2, it's too hard (at the moment, anyway)

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Stephen

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 25, 2011
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a bad game or anything - a fair bit of polish, no clipping (absolutely awful idea) and a few new guns and tanks and I think it'll be an absolutely amazing game; perhaps unparalleled in its genre.

BUT...

It seems so much faster, more fluid and 'less strategic' than RO1.

Why?

Well, having played the second batch of beta maps, I have to say that they are absolutely fantastic: huge, detailed, well thought out and plenty of room for tactical deployment. Or is there? I'd say not, given that my average lifespan on any of these new maps is rarely beyond thirty seconds. In one or two games I've managed a couple of minutes but they seemed anomalies, and I think I'd wandered off into sections of the map where there was little or no action.

In RO1 (and to a greater extent DH, which is what I played most frequently) you had a great selection of huge, green (grass) or white (snow) outdoor maps that were either combined arms or, infantry or tank-only. This was fine because the balance tended to work - if you wanted tank combat, play on a tank server. This was fine because the tanks were numerous, varied and pretty well balanced (particularly in DH, with its superior, remodelled penetration system) whereas in RO1 there are only two models of tank and they're both bugged and can seemingly mow down your first two waves of infantry from across the map. I've quit at least two servers in the last hour because of this; it's incredibly annoying and nigh-on impossible to avoid.

Tank combat aside (as it's less important and I'm willing to see how things pan out after release) a bit pissed off at the fact I seem to be TKing people - by accident, I should *** - at a fairly unhealthy rate. Why? For a start, these two (three?) new maps seem incredibly dark, and despite the pretty decent range at which one can see, discerning which side a target is on is still very, very difficult. I'm not going to get into the issue of range/zoom (it's been covered in countless threads) but suffice to say there seems to be a problem if I'm a German and I shoot someone at ~40 metres away and it turns out he was a German too. Right or wrong, this would rarely have happened in RO/DH because it was much easier to see whose side people were on. Again, this isn't a rant against TWI and saying that they've screwed up, simply that it's likely my fault but I don't know what to do about it. I'm not a bad shot (on a good day) but it's pretty embarrassing when I'm racking up the TKs and then someone says 'dude, why dont u ****in look before u shoot?' - yeah, this is all well and good to say in chat, but when someone's pointing a rifle at you (and you know they can see you), you don't study their profile for long? You either shoot or run, or you're dead.

Maybe it's the lighting - although I can run the game on high/ultra fairly well, and perfectly at high or below, and I've tested numerous settings - but whereas I could hit a bird in the eye with a k98 on RO1 at about a quarter of a mile (obviously I exaggerate, but everything seemed to be at a much greater distance in that game) in RO2 I'm having serious issues at fifty metres.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure what I'm suggesting here - if anything :D - but I've paid the cash and tried the beta for a few days, and I've just had a few of those games where when you combine the various issues I'm having problems with (bugs, clipping, seemingly random places where you can and can't use cover properly - and even then I seem to clip through a lot of the walls/sandbags I'm supposed to be using as cover - tanks, too many SMGs and SARs and dying faster and more consistently than in any game I've played since Tetris, I just feel like giving up for a while.

I think the issue is that in RO/DH I felt like a soldier with a purpose; I had my weapons and a map/compass and the objectives were clear (written down on the side of the map) and despite a few misgivings and the obvious limitations of the engine, the game seemed a lot crisper.

Now I've got an impossibly complex overlay (which is broken), a point scoring system which is akin to learning Sanskrit and instead of choosing a role for myself (going solo, becoming a tanker, teaming up into a little squad and hopping into a half-track, etc.) my only option is to now run straight forward with everyone else and get mowed down before my egg timer goes off. Rinse and repeat.

Oh, and to top it off the other game modes are seriously lacking. In what, I don't know, but Countdown is marginally less interesting than the TV programme of the same name (I'd be interested if someone could do some arithmetic here and find out roughly what percentage of any given game you're actually playing as opposed to waiting) and I genuinely don't understand the point of the two gameplay modes. It's not like one is CoD and the other is RO (which would be understandable, if unforgivable); the only difference appears to be pistols and a few more HUD indicators. This feels cheap, and I think there ought to be more substantive differences between the two, or simply remove 'standard.'

Finally, things I like and dislike:

+ Kill Assists. Difficult to work out exactly how they work, but it's nice to be recognised for contributing to the death of a communist. :D

+ Suppression fire system. Credit where it's due, this is really good and I actually think this couldn't have been made much better.

+

- Cover. A few of my friends on Steam have suggested that this seems more of a disadvantage than anything as it you're 'locked' into it, and it seems enemies can almost always see the top of your head anyway. That and the all in one cover/pick up/use button make it hazardous and ill thought-out.

- Squad Command. Perhaps this will improve over time, but all I have been able to do so far is place my marker somewhere in front of me. I have no idea if people are doing as I say, and when I am following someone else as squad leader I tend to have no idea where their marker is. So, for me, pretty useless at present.

- Bandaging. This just seems annoying, not to mention hugely unrealistic. I am shot and have seconds to live (and am literally fading to black) but can reverse this entire process indefinitely by applying a bandage in about three seconds? No. Scrap it.

- Breathing/fatigue. I haven't seen anything of the kind so far - infinite sprint and no consequences.

- Random zooming. Again, there are threads explaining this but I still don't like it, and sometimes my game will start with me zoomed in by default and I have to go into options and change an option (which I previously did before) to stop it.

- Battlefield commissions. I possibly dislike this so much because it seems pretty bugged at present, with commissions being handed out seeming at random with no relevance to a person's kill count.

Hmm, that's enough I think. As you can see there are a lot of little things that really annoy me about the game so far, offset somewhat by a few major innovations which I think are really well-handled. I think a lot of the problem here is down to my expectations (which are always far too high - I should just give up on PC games altogether) combined with the fact that I am already depressed at the lack of vehicles, and the two we do have don't work properly anyway.

6/10 so far, but fixing two or three major issues (clipping being my #1) will seriously help this game in the long run, but as it stands I will certainly eat my hat if this game is anywhere near what I expect from a release version by the 13th.

Do vote me down in your droves now, 'cus I know this was a really bitter and *****y post but I'm just being honest because I'm a bit disappointed, but I can not emphasise enough how much I love and appreciate the map design.

:IS2:
 

LHeureux

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 24, 2011
562
175
0
I think you forget the fact that RO2 is new, more tanks are to come, bugs will be fixed, new weapons, maps, etc. Like RO1, the MP41, G41 weren't in the game at first. But I understand your point.
 

Nenjin

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 30, 2009
3,879
480
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Sub-Level 12
- Cover. A few of my friends on Steam have suggested that this seems more of a disadvantage than anything as it you're 'locked' into it, and it seems enemies can almost always see the top of your head anyway. That and the all in one cover/pick up/use button make it hazardous and ill thought-out.
What people are likely experiencing is bullet penetration, not exposure. Cover use is situational to me. Sticking my whole body up against a window using the cover system has proven to be a bad idea most of the time because it makes you more visible. But in a trench? Around a corner? It's pretty useful. I try to be selective about using the cover system. If you start latching on to any old thing it does feel like it's restricting you.

But yeah, bullet penetration. I make half as many kills with it as shooting people in the open.

- Breathing/fatigue. I haven't seen anything of the kind so far - infinite sprint and no consequences.
Rifle sway is a bit too low for people's taste. But you do slow down at least 50% when you've maxed out your stamina bar.
 

teemu92

Grizzled Veteran
May 31, 2011
1,050
140
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Finland
www.youtube.com
The game is going to get ALOT of post release support, from the devs & the community, like maps and from the devs we are getting new tanks & vehicles for free after release.
 

LHeureux

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 24, 2011
562
175
0
You should reserve judgement until you play the finished version of the game.
I say let's wait 1 year or some months and we should have a way better game than RO1. When RO2 will reach RO1 status it will be F*CKING AWESOME :D
 

Stephen

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 25, 2011
568
242
0
53
Ch
I think you forget the fact that RO2 is new, more tanks are to come, bugs will be fixed, new weapons, maps, etc. Like RO1, the MP41, G41 weren't in the game at first. But I understand your point.

I haven't forgotten any of that, and I believe I even mentioned that in my post. I've mentioned it in about a dozen posts of late actually.

You should reserve judgement until you play the finished version of the game.

Why? I paid extra to test the beta, which is what I am doing. This is my feedback. Do you feel I am not entitled to this?

The game is going to get ALOT of post release support, from the devs & the community, like maps and from the devs we are getting new tanks & vehicles for free after release.

Oh, I have no doubt. I think TWI are peerless in this regard.
 

Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
1,713
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Heh, we are actually having a very interesting discussion on this in another thread.

Basically, RO2 is a lot more realistic than anything before it. A few gameplay niggles aside (bandaging, I'm looking at you), the gunplay is actually designed to work at real life distances. People are used to their old bad habits they picked up from other games, RO1 included. They're trying to use video game tactics using real world variables, and it's not working. A few things we were discussing involve rifleman taking cover in view of the enemy, and then expecting to be able to pop out and shoot back without getting decapitated. It just doesn't work when the random number god isn't wiggling your gun back and forth or sending your bullets off at weird angles. When you can actually hit targets, suddenly the game changes.

Everyone is complaining about weapons being overpowered (not regarding this thread, but the general feel of a lot of the forum posts) or people running to fast or some such, when in reality the problem lies in their behaviors and tactics. They're trying to do like they did in RO1, where they had to press right up against someone for SMGs to be effective, or they could sit, semi-concealed, and take pot shots at each other all day because of the lack of zoom and the "balances" built into the rifle. These are gone in favor of a much more realistic model, and people are finding that their tactics don't work.

I respect your opinion, naturally, but I'm giddy about the whole thing. In a month or two, the clans will start to get down the tactics they need to survive pat, and we'll start seeing some really heated action on the clan front. In 6 months or so, I can see this trickling down into the general playerbase, and within a year I can imagine some very heated, realistic firefights using authentic infantry tactics on pub servers.

Of course, I may be deluding myself with optimism, but the engine we've been given to play in certainly seems to lend itself to this.
 

LMAOser

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
178
103
0
Nice job, OP. I don't agree with all of your points, but they are well thought out and you do make some good ones.

I'm not sure why you would need to wait until the full release, either, unless you were mainly upset about bugs. A lot of the features you were critiquing are going to be in the final game, anyway. lol
 

Stephen

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 25, 2011
568
242
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53
Ch
Josef, that is a very, very astute post and I am inclined to agree with you on almost everything. I am just saying that I am pissed off because of these changes (as an initial reaction, as opposed to them being poor or unwarranted changes) and the fact that my survival rate has been divided by about a hundred.
 

Nenjin

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 30, 2009
3,879
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Sub-Level 12
I've barely played RO, and I've had RO2 games go from me totally getting whooped to finding the perfect spot and going straight up the score boards. Everyone has to learn or re-learn this stuff again.
 

TheGunz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 30, 2011
16
3
0
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a bad game or anything - a fair bit of polish, no clipping (absolutely awful idea) and a few new guns and tanks and I think it'll be an absolutely amazing game; perhaps unparalleled in its genre.

BUT...

It seems so much faster, more fluid and 'less strategic' than RO1.

Why?

Well, having played the second batch of beta maps, I have to say that they are absolutely fantastic: huge, detailed, well thought out and plenty of room for tactical deployment. Or is there? I'd say not, given that my average lifespan on any of these new maps is rarely beyond thirty seconds. In one or two games I've managed a couple of minutes but they seemed anomalies, and I think I'd wandered off into sections of the map where there was little or no action.

In RO1 (and to a greater extent DH, which is what I played most frequently) you had a great selection of huge, green (grass) or white (snow) outdoor maps that were either combined arms or, infantry or tank-only. This was fine because the balance tended to work - if you wanted tank combat, play on a tank server. This was fine because the tanks were numerous, varied and pretty well balanced (particularly in DH, with its superior, remodelled penetration system) whereas in RO1 there are only two models of tank and they're both bugged and can seemingly mow down your first two waves of infantry from across the map. I've quit at least two servers in the last hour because of this; it's incredibly annoying and nigh-on impossible to avoid.

Tank combat aside (as it's less important and I'm willing to see how things pan out after release) a bit pissed off at the fact I seem to be TKing people - by accident, I should *** - at a fairly unhealthy rate. Why? For a start, these two (three?) new maps seem incredibly dark, and despite the pretty decent range at which one can see, discerning which side a target is on is still very, very difficult. I'm not going to get into the issue of range/zoom (it's been covered in countless threads) but suffice to say there seems to be a problem if I'm a German and I shoot someone at ~40 metres away and it turns out he was a German too. Right or wrong, this would rarely have happened in RO/DH because it was much easier to see whose side people were on. Again, this isn't a rant against TWI and saying that they've screwed up, simply that it's likely my fault but I don't know what to do about it. I'm not a bad shot (on a good day) but it's pretty embarrassing when I'm racking up the TKs and then someone says 'dude, why dont u ****in look before u shoot?' - yeah, this is all well and good to say in chat, but when someone's pointing a rifle at you (and you know they can see you), you don't study their profile for long? You either shoot or run, or you're dead.

Maybe it's the lighting - although I can run the game on high/ultra fairly well, and perfectly at high or below, and I've tested numerous settings - but whereas I could hit a bird in the eye with a k98 on RO1 at about a quarter of a mile (obviously I exaggerate, but everything seemed to be at a much greater distance in that game) in RO2 I'm having serious issues at fifty metres.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure what I'm suggesting here - if anything :D - but I've paid the cash and tried the beta for a few days, and I've just had a few of those games where when you combine the various issues I'm having problems with (bugs, clipping, seemingly random places where you can and can't use cover properly - and even then I seem to clip through a lot of the walls/sandbags I'm supposed to be using as cover - tanks, too many SMGs and SARs and dying faster and more consistently than in any game I've played since Tetris, I just feel like giving up for a while.

I think the issue is that in RO/DH I felt like a soldier with a purpose; I had my weapons and a map/compass and the objectives were clear (written down on the side of the map) and despite a few misgivings and the obvious limitations of the engine, the game seemed a lot crisper.

Now I've got an impossibly complex overlay (which is broken), a point scoring system which is akin to learning Sanskrit and instead of choosing a role for myself (going solo, becoming a tanker, teaming up into a little squad and hopping into a half-track, etc.) my only option is to now run straight forward with everyone else and get mowed down before my egg timer goes off. Rinse and repeat.

Oh, and to top it off the other game modes are seriously lacking. In what, I don't know, but Countdown is marginally less interesting than the TV programme of the same name (I'd be interested if someone could do some arithmetic here and find out roughly what percentage of any given game you're actually playing as opposed to waiting) and I genuinely don't understand the point of the two gameplay modes. It's not like one is CoD and the other is RO (which would be understandable, if unforgivable); the only difference appears to be pistols and a few more HUD indicators. This feels cheap, and I think there ought to be more substantive differences between the two, or simply remove 'standard.'

Finally, things I like and dislike:

+ Kill Assists. Difficult to work out exactly how they work, but it's nice to be recognised for contributing to the death of a communist. :D

+ Suppression fire system. Credit where it's due, this is really good and I actually think this couldn't have been made much better.

+

- Cover. A few of my friends on Steam have suggested that this seems more of a disadvantage than anything as it you're 'locked' into it, and it seems enemies can almost always see the top of your head anyway. That and the all in one cover/pick up/use button make it hazardous and ill thought-out.

- Squad Command. Perhaps this will improve over time, but all I have been able to do so far is place my marker somewhere in front of me. I have no idea if people are doing as I say, and when I am following someone else as squad leader I tend to have no idea where their marker is. So, for me, pretty useless at present.

- Bandaging. This just seems annoying, not to mention hugely unrealistic. I am shot and have seconds to live (and am literally fading to black) but can reverse this entire process indefinitely by applying a bandage in about three seconds? No. Scrap it.

- Breathing/fatigue. I haven't seen anything of the kind so far - infinite sprint and no consequences.

- Random zooming. Again, there are threads explaining this but I still don't like it, and sometimes my game will start with me zoomed in by default and I have to go into options and change an option (which I previously did before) to stop it.

- Battlefield commissions. I possibly dislike this so much because it seems pretty bugged at present, with commissions being handed out seeming at random with no relevance to a person's kill count.

Hmm, that's enough I think. As you can see there are a lot of little things that really annoy me about the game so far, offset somewhat by a few major innovations which I think are really well-handled. I think a lot of the problem here is down to my expectations (which are always far too high - I should just give up on PC games altogether) combined with the fact that I am already depressed at the lack of vehicles, and the two we do have don't work properly anyway.

6/10 so far, but fixing two or three major issues (clipping being my #1) will seriously help this game in the long run, but as it stands I will certainly eat my hat if this game is anywhere near what I expect from a release version by the 13th.

Do vote me down in your droves now, 'cus I know this was a really bitter and *****y post but I'm just being honest because I'm a bit disappointed, but I can not emphasise enough how much I love and appreciate the map design.

:IS2:

I agree with the lifespan problem, VERY frustrating. Even though I usually am top kills on the server, and get at least 3 kills per death, I still get so mad at dying so fast.

Good post, if you're going to critisize a game this is how you do it. Though more suggestions would be good.
 

Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
1,713
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Josef, that is a very, very astute post and I am inclined to agree with you on almost everything. I am just saying that I am pissed off because of these changes (as an initial reaction, as opposed to them being poor or unwarranted changes) and the fact that my survival rate has been divided by about a hundred.

I feel your pain. I'm crashing back into RO from 2-3 years in TF2. You can imagine the culture shock.

But I see something in RO2. Something I haven't seen in a long time.

A game changer. A real, true-to-life game changer for online FPSs. In the same way the first RO revolutionized contemporary FPS titles, RO2 has the same potential. I've never played a game where engaging targets out to 200 yards was standard, where SMGs weren't a pile of *** and recoil, and where there was nothing between me and instant death but my own wits and a bit of luck (that wasn't determined by the RNG).

This game, punshing as it is (my K:D has got to be like 1:200 at this point), has the potential to be something truly revolutionary. I'm having to re-learn how to play shooters again, dropping all of the bad habits I've had drilled into me since Halo changed shooting mechanics forever. Any game that makes me re-think my play style that hard, the same playstyle that I've been using since the first time I bashed an Elite over the head with an Assault Rifle, has got to be doing something new, different, and (to me, at least) exciting.

I digress.
 
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TheRealGunther

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
1,177
282
0
Blue Ridge GA
I once thought being a game developer would be a dream job after reading these forums I know now it can be a nightmare.One thing people must understand RO1 was a mod. TWI made it the way they wanted too more or less making a game that they wanted to play.Now that they are a company they are making a "game"and like anyone they have bills to pay.

Personally I think they have done a great job at keeping the realism of the first game pleasing the vets.And at the same time opening the game to a wider audience.Trying to please both sides is not an easy task.Its a beta build never judge a product until its released. RO is what I call a "war sim" its like english humor it has to grow on you I enjoyed RO1 alot more after I got used to the game.

I think alot of people just wanted ro1 with updated graphics.To be a really good sequel you must build upon what made the first game great not just add bells and whistles.I think its a huge step forward in design many things can still be changed as was done in ro1's slow mod development.A full map rotation and some polish would go along way and unlike any modern fps it can be moded and many! server side changes.

I have full confidence in TWI to deliver a great and unique product.It may take some time but I will be patient and let the things I don't agree with grow on me. I wasn't happy with a few things in RO1 but,after years of playing I wouldn't change a thing:D.
 
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floppypick

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
6
0
0
This is pretty much exactly how I feel.

To top it all off though, I could run the original with all the settings maxed. I now have to run this game around low (despite meeting all the recommended requirements except for 2.0ghz instead of 2.4) and I can't made out a damned thing. To top it off I can't raise my resolution past 1024xwhateveritis for some reason that is beyond me.

I was a freaking god with the bolt action in RO1, and now... I typically die before I even get a shot off.
 

mrPuma

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2011
259
56
0
i agree with OP on most parts. Its a letdown so far for me as there seems to be too many fast run and gun, rushing to the cap. Wheres the thinking mans game u all advertized:confused: in RO2 if u ever stop to think for a second u can bet u will be moved down with smg. I have very high hopes for the upcoming maps to be the open, large, with vehicle and infantry:cool:
 

Cpt-Praxius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 12, 2005
3,300
1,667
0
Canadian in Australia
Josef, that is a very, very astute post and I am inclined to agree with you on almost everything. I am just saying that I am pissed off because of these changes (as an initial reaction, as opposed to them being poor or unwarranted changes) and the fact that my survival rate has been divided by about a hundred.

Sometimes I'm in the top half of the rankings at the end of the round, but most times I'm at the bottom and die often..... speaking as an old skool RO'er since the mod days.

You do have to re-learn how to play and you do have to get used to many of the new changes/systems in the game, so you're not alone.

But at the same time, I'm not going to quit..... I have been put off by the packet loss issue hitting me due to using a wireless internet (I have no choice but to use wireless) and probably won't be playing as often until that's fixed, because I don't like getting banned for "Hacking" when I hate hacking and would never do it..... but I won't be quitting.

Once I figure out the maps, how they work, where not to go so that I don't get mowed down, etc..... I'm sure my tactics and scoring will improve greatly.

I had the same problems when I started on the mod, just as I did with RO1.... new maps, new features, old feature no longer work..... I have to relearn a number of things until I do better and don't die so often.

Added:

I think this is specifically the reason why games such as BF and CoD seem like they're always just the same old re-hash of their previous games.... it's so that their hard-core players who've been playing those games for years can just plop the game on their computer, start it up and just start playing like they always did with few issues of having to re-learn things. It plays much the way they've been used to, except maybe bigger maps, more players and fancier graphics.

RO didn't just add more players, fancier graphics, etc.... they redesigned certain elements of RO to something completely different, they took the risk of making things more dynamic, adding new features that don't exist in other games (like they've done in the past)..... or they've taken elements from other games and made them still unique to RO, in that the feature may seem similar to other games, but works almost completely different.

The Ironsights are different, the tank physics are different, the prone is different, your running endurance is different, supression has been evolved from just a mere blurring of the screen to affecting your player directly..... walls no longer protect you from bullets, you can pick up more than one weapon, reloading has been improved, animations, models, graphics, maps.....

... Almost everything has been either changed completely or modified, with very few elements of RO1 remaining intact.

So of course we older skool vets are going to get skooled. :p
 
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ViViD

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2005
584
26
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Great post.

I think come back where there is a few community maps out there that a little more open, and the spawns are a little easier to identify. The terrain and the city environment is compounding the issues you feel.

Yes thinking is now optional, RO2 its more about your twitch.

Also its should never be about how good you are it should be how good the team with you are. I already seeing a change in the forums on bragging and trolling. What made RO great was not just the game but the community, and the teamwork. Us old timers need to help instill and keep that here on the forums.