IS-2's HE can kill Tiger!!!
- Thread starter HSCN-II-gd1944
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If RO allows some HE tank kills, all power to them. Back in the late '70's I read an article in the U.S. Army tank warfare journal (can't recall title or date, regrets) about how U.S. Army M10 tank destroyers were forced to use rapid fire HE to kill Panthers because their AP was useless frontally, and the canny cat users tended to prevent exposing their flanks. Some bright spark came up with the idea of blasting the thing with HE which couldn't penetrate the Panther, but a hit in certain places or after being hit enough the armor started to spall---disc-shaped razor-sharp pieces of the armor flew off on the inside and the consequences were dire for the crew. This was due to the blast-effect produced by the significantly larger explosive content of the HE shell. So the M10s started hammering Panthers with massed HE fire when they appeared, and they were able to fight back. Another American success story. 
Dugg up this therad while searching for quality RO:OST screen shorts. Can you point me to more?
Also a question: why it always says "0 meters" on my scope?
Also a question: why it always says "0 meters" on my scope?
You use 'lean left' and 'lean right' keys (default Q and E) to set distance when aiming.
As for HE shells hurting tanks, this isn't exactly new. Even a T34 can kill a Tiger that way, though it will take considerably longer. I've never taken out a brand new one that way, but if they are already smoking, 3-4 shells do the trick. What's more important is that angle seems to be mostly irrelevant for HE, so if you have time (or go solo), it's less risky than trying to flank the enemy.
As for HE shells hurting tanks, this isn't exactly new. Even a T34 can kill a Tiger that way, though it will take considerably longer. I've never taken out a brand new one that way, but if they are already smoking, 3-4 shells do the trick. What's more important is that angle seems to be mostly irrelevant for HE, so if you have time (or go solo), it's less risky than trying to flank the enemy.
zayd said:
depends, when you have a 152 shell, with 44kg (or so) weight, then it does not realy count that much if its He or Ap (though, im even not totally sure if soviets have developed a AP shell for there 152mm assault guns). With the IS2, the pure Ap or penetration ability from the shells and gun, where not as that great for such a caliber, even not that much higher then for the 88 or the panthers canone, but, the pure power from that shell, cause to the weight from the shell was i guess biger, so with enough shots, a panther or probably even tiger amror woud have serious problems, even when it does not penetrate, evry armor will crack and/or get fatigue of material sometime. (this is of course more a issue, with the tanks like Tiger and Panther, with Jagdtigers and Tigers II, there frontal armor was somewhat much more thicker, even to wistand such devastating shots, im sure they coud take a hell lot of rounds frontal, before it cracks or get flaws)
The 122mm gun is nearly a 5-inch gun and that for land warfare is a big gun. The guns in most of the contemporary tanks are 120mm. 122 HE could smash a Tiger with shock and spalling. Spalling could kill the crew with discs of flying armor, cut wires, start fires, detonate shells, split open fuel lines or tanks, and blow the tank to bits. Looking forward to hunting kitties with the Su-152 at Kursk.
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I did some JS-2 testing in Practice mode with the Arad map scenario. Made a HE side kill on a Tiger I in one shot at about 200 meters. Seemed reasonable enough to me. I used my JS as it was designed---for overwatch fire. This is taking a position and covering the close assaulting T-34-85s. I chose the hill across the river from the village (behind some trees!). From here I destroyed another Tiger I with flank HE shots from 500 meters. I crippled a Panther in the village, and, at the end, went after it with a T-34 in support, and destroyed it at close range (the kill shot was AP, I think). I have a suspicion 122mm HE is more effective than 122 AP against heavy German tanks. From now on I think I'll use 122 AP for mediums and the HE for heavies. I love the JS!
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that is not very encouraging, realism-wise, that HE can do so much damage. I'd be interested to see what Jack and AKD have to say about this. IIRC, this should just not be effective (to that extent anyways) against larger more armored tanks.
Consider the considerably larger explosive content of a 5" HE shell compared to a 5" AP shell, Heinz. Furthermore, consider the effect on a tank of being hit by a 5" naval shell. See JUTLAND by John Campbell---most of the damage inflicted in the battle was by blast-effect, not by penetration. I am actually impressed by the big HE shell modeling. I'd be appalled if 50mm HE was blowing up heavy tanks! I thought this system was on the right track when I discovered I could penetrate the Pz III, IV, and StuG III with the T-60's 20mm at close range---if I hit their flanks. Except for the Tiger, most of the tanks in RO have weaknesses in their armor protection which can be exploited. Yesterday I pounded away at a Panther with a T-34-85 in a frontal duel. I was so well hidden the Panther kept missing me, but I slammed him at about 100 meters over and over. No dice with the 85mm. I thought this excellent modeling. A side shot would have been another matter.
XXX said:
I see what you mean. Perhaps, I would hope, the HE dominating would be the exception rather than the rule, with a tank like the JS-2. Since it is so much larger that the other tanks, in regards to cannon size.
The JS-2 is armed with a huge elephant gun. Steve Zaloga in his little Osprey book on the JS tanks notes that the buggers were really intended for infantry support, not for tank vs tank, and were never made regular equipment of armored units. They were to lay back and blast everything that bothered an infantry assault. It and the Panther are my favorite tanks.
It may be interesting to note that Combat Mission, which is generally held in good regard as far as the accuracy of its armour simulation is concerned, credits the 122mm HE shell with the following penetration:
Thus it would seem that when striking with a minimal angle of incidence (ie. both tanks facing head-on) that the JS-2's HE shell could defeat the Tiger's front hull, though perhaps not the combined turret front+gun mantlet, at ranges greater than 500 meters and less than 1000 meters, which covers just about all engagement ranges seen in RO.
Edit: Damn hard to make tables display correctly.
Code:
[FONT="Fixedsys"]
Muzzle velocity 790 m/sec
100m 500m 1000m 2000m RANGE
0* 115 108 99 84
30* 94 88 82 70
60* 54 51 47 41 (mm)
ANGLE
[/FONT]Thus it would seem that when striking with a minimal angle of incidence (ie. both tanks facing head-on) that the JS-2's HE shell could defeat the Tiger's front hull, though perhaps not the combined turret front+gun mantlet, at ranges greater than 500 meters and less than 1000 meters, which covers just about all engagement ranges seen in RO.
Edit: Damn hard to make tables display correctly.
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This thread made it even more clear how RO isnt really great at tank warfare.
I DO NOT WANT TO BASH!
But you wont make me eat "Armour Penetration system" thing.
IF you have AP system things go differently.
Let me tell a couple of examples why RO tank war is based on HP.
1,Every tank can be destroyed by a certain amount of shells.
For example I noticed that a PZ III needs 3 APCR shell to take out a KV1.
2,The crew cannot be killed\wounded by armour penetration, shell\armour fregmantation, fire? Where is the Great armour penetration system?
3, Engine fires don't disable tanks
4, The ammo compartment either blows, or stays. WHERES THE SLOW BURNS??
5, You can destroy tanks with grenades (I know issue will be solved!)
6, The satchel charge seems to destroy tanks even if its not on the tank, which would not happen quite happen. Usually they were placed at weak ares on tanks: Engine Grills, under the turret
The infantry aspect is great, the Tank isn't.
Infantry's Hot, Tank's Not!
I DO NOT WANT TO BASH!
But you wont make me eat "Armour Penetration system" thing.
IF you have AP system things go differently.
Let me tell a couple of examples why RO tank war is based on HP.
1,Every tank can be destroyed by a certain amount of shells.
For example I noticed that a PZ III needs 3 APCR shell to take out a KV1.
2,The crew cannot be killed\wounded by armour penetration, shell\armour fregmantation, fire? Where is the Great armour penetration system?
3, Engine fires don't disable tanks
4, The ammo compartment either blows, or stays. WHERES THE SLOW BURNS??
5, You can destroy tanks with grenades (I know issue will be solved!)
6, The satchel charge seems to destroy tanks even if its not on the tank, which would not happen quite happen. Usually they were placed at weak ares on tanks: Engine Grills, under the turret
The infantry aspect is great, the Tank isn't.
Infantry's Hot, Tank's Not!
Hans_klempner said:
A1: Umm....yeah. What about it? Any tank with a certain amount of shots can disable/kill another tank... KV-1s' aren't known for their armor...
A2: More of an engine limitation...remember that the UE2.5 engine itself is pretty old, and Ramm can do only so much...
A3: They are slowed down...or at least it seems this way.
A4:
A5:
A6: See A5.
Soviets had semi-armor piersing rounds for 152mm ML-20 of the su-152/isu-152 in addition to pure HE.jedinstven-o crni Wuk said:
Armour piersing rounds for 152mm M-10 of the KV-2 existed, but KV-2 manual forbade their use and they were not issued to KV-2 crews. I cant remember why though.
Witzig said:
I have found you can take out any of the tanks in at most 2 shots if you aim in the right spot.
1 shot kills are usually the driver access door on all tanks or the left side of the axis tanks between the turrent & top of tracks (Ammo)I found the left side seems to be more prone on all tanks be it axis or alied for inflicting the most damage. & that is just using AP rounds.
I have taken out a moving tiger at distance as it was traveling into south village when I was in north fields on Arad perfect left side weakness hit.
hmm, well, i'm gonna give a senceless coment to this, too
the IS2 Cannon was prefered to a 100mm canon with higher velocity speed because of the fact that for the 122mm canon are more shells available. And this gun was taken because it could, when firing with HE, blow off whole tank turrets.
So, the IS2 cannon becomes a real arty gun and we all know how mean the ingame arty is ^^
uhm, well ... finished
greets,
Reiser
the IS2 Cannon was prefered to a 100mm canon with higher velocity speed because of the fact that for the 122mm canon are more shells available. And this gun was taken because it could, when firing with HE, blow off whole tank turrets.
So, the IS2 cannon becomes a real arty gun and we all know how mean the ingame arty is ^^
uhm, well ... finished
greets,
Reiser
I can kill a panther in a T60 from the sides. I can't do the same with the Tiger but I have found that you can destroy a tiger with a T60 if you shoot the rear of the turret where the copula is, right at the base of the turret.
From the right angles the T60 is deadly, from the wrong angles it's nothing but a noisy target.
From the right angles the T60 is deadly, from the wrong angles it's nothing but a noisy target.