Ironsights disalignment during stands change

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O'Shannon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 18, 2006
380
90
0
Germany
i came u with this idea while i was raging about people suggesting "DH suppression" for HOS.

i guess the reason people like "DH suppression" so much is because as mg its pretty hard to stand a chance against good rifles(sniper) that do the Crouch\Stand popupping during Ironsights.

solutions:

1. aim better. be faster than your opponent. (i hate the thought that other players that arent as good as me would be able to have an impact on MY aiming)

2. my actual idea.
to prevent the crouch\stand-popuping (or lean-shot-unlean) to a curtain degree, disalign the Ironsight while you change stands. basically the frontsight should be draged behind the backsights a littel bit(see picture below) during standing up or going down.
and after standing up or going down Ironsights would need few ms to re-align..

degree of disalignment
4fzaqf.png
 
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LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
6,293
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Prussotroll's Bridge
it seems you fail to understand why many ppl like the DH supression system
yes, more effective MG's is a part of it, but only one of many reasons

the most deciding factor for me is the tension it creates
spraying spots where the enemy could be actually has an effect
if you get sprayed by a tank/MG/MP/rifle it just creates a verry special tension wich i have not seen in any game till now

it actually makes you duck behind your PC when spuressed, rather then just making you think that you should be supressed
 
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EvilHobo

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 22, 2005
2,613
192
63
Germany, NRW
Sounds reasonable, I would think it unrealistic to believe it possible to have unflinching alignment during stance changes (regardless of how much I have abused it in RO).
 

O'Shannon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 18, 2006
380
90
0
Germany
it seems you fail to understand why many ppl like the DH supression system
yes, more effective MG's is a part of it, but only one of many reasons
the most deciding factor for me is the tension it creates
spraying spots where the enemy could be actually has an effect
if you get sprayed by a tank/MG/MP/rifle it just creates a verry special tension wich i have not seen in any game till now

it actually makes you duck behind your PC when spuressed, rather then just making you think that you should be supressed

DH sup. no tension what so ever just annoyance..
its like noob: "haha no need for good aiming just spray into the general direction suppression will do the rest"
you know this "first spray in general direction, than (during spraying) aim to kill" what comes with DH supression.
it just destroys my thought off competitive games (and ro is a competitive game. every game with multiplayer is)
 

LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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Prussotroll's Bridge
DH sup. no tension what so ever just annoyance..
its like noob: "haha no need for good aiming just spray into the general direction suppression will do the rest"
you know this "first spray in general direction, than (during spraying) aim to kill" what comes with DH supression.
it just destroys my thought off competitive games (and ro is a competitive game. every game with multiplayer is)

and this is where i disagree with you
i played competitively for years(most of that time other games, but also a year of RO), but i never even thought about using that typical CoD/CS attitude (OMGZ AIMZ, OMGZ LUCKZ, OMGZ SKILLZ) on RO:Ost
i did never ever once say luck, lucker or similar in RO

imho RO is about tactics, immersion and feeling of the battlefield, not about skillz
and i have to admit, i hate that attitude in RO with a passion
 
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Bluehawk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 13, 2006
2,392
431
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Hamilton, ON
Elements of randomness concerning skill-based attributes like aiming your weapon, force players to use tactics to overcome their inability to actually point and shoot :D

Mods like Plan of Attack or the original Brothers in Arms do this horribly by making firing a weapon feel like dolling the dice in D&D for a hitcheck, but RO has not been above adding random elements. DH's suppression doesn't take all the skill or fun out of the game, it just really pisses people off when the map they're playing on forces them to face that MG head on. RO has always been a game that favours the still, the low and the patient - so if you're on offense and have to advance to the objective, you're automatically at a disadvantage. That's the game. That's not going to change.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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Falmouth UK
Unaligning the ironsight while changing stance, and moving the gun about a bit in the free aim range are things that everybody likes, and thats why similar things have often been suggested, popup shooting is an issue.

But still with this and penetration i still think that a change in supression is needed from stock ro, not exactly the DH system. But if supression can formed in an entity that can be controlled through practise like recoil of a smg then i would like that.
 
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O'Shannon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 18, 2006
380
90
0
Germany
But still with this and penetration i still think that a change in supression is needed from stock ro, not exactly the DH system.

imho penetration, IS-freeaim and my idea would have more than enough suppressive effect...scenarios i have in my mind is for example:

mg is deployed somewhere, he spots some rifle that tries to do "ironsights-lean-shoot-unlean" at some croner.. thanks to penetration, IS freeaim and my idea the leaning guy would be visible long enough for the mg to be shot. if not, the leaning guys who unleaned just ms ago would still be hittable thanks to penetration..

But if suppression can formed in an entity that can be controlled through practice like recoil of a smg then i would like that.

if there will be some similar effect (which i hope will not) it shouldn't be jumping ironsights but something controllable, like you said Zets.
weaponsway kicking in faster for example.
 
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{Core}Craig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2008
756
178
0
I agree with Oshan on this.

His drawings are basic, but if the animation did show the rifle at a slight angle that caused this allignment differentation then it would be very good. I presume it should sway back to centre after a short time (stabalising time).
 

The_Emperor

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 9, 2009
1,088
186
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Milkyway
This would be awesome, as it was alltime a real mess that bolters took cover behind a wall then shortly raised up and had perfect sights to fire. Particularly MG gunners had been influenced in a bad way. You shooting at someone and he takes cover, secs later he raises up and can take you out. If this is changed by your suggestion, I'm all up for it!
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
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Nargothrond
This is a great idea, and it's been suggested before way back before Ostfront came out in the beta days.


That said, this plus penetration would make things more realistic, but still won't get players to act as suppressed as a real soldier would. If that's the goal of TWI, then some additional automatic suppression is necessary.

Either include a firearm with the game that wounds or kills the player sitting at his keyboard and mouse, or implement a DH style suppression system (perhaps toned done some). Either way, you'll get more realistic reactions to suppressive fire. I would prefer the DH style suppression as killing players would drastically reduce the player base.

If you don't want such realistic behavior under suppressive fire, then there's no need for a suppression system.
 

Tiger2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2008
501
144
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O Shannon, do you not think TWI may have solved this problem long ago and we are just having a pointless debate?

Watch their video presentation.

The normal ironsight mode is for CQB and you will not be able to hit anything at long range with it.

The zoomed in ironsight mode is for 50+ metres and here you can see you weapon affected by your breathing cycle (the weapon sways when you inhale or exhale) In this mode to get pin point accuracy you need to shoot during a "window". This window occurs when your character exhales, but before he inhales. If you shoot either when you are inhaling or exhaling your weapon will not be perfectly still and it will be hard/ near impossible to keep it on a small target 100+ metres away.

Me and Lemon had a big arguement over this, but we both agreed that when someone pops up from behind cover in RO:HOS to shoot at an MG a long distance away, he needs to WAIT until his character exhales before taking the shot. This "catch the window" technique will be the revolutionary feature in RO.

Looks like we can forget about suppression effects and sights misalignment.
 
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{Core}Craig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2008
756
178
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O Shannon, do you not think TWI may have solved this problem long ago and we are just having a pointless debate?

I dont think your understanding just how quick this can be done. With practice and some training, you can pop up - shoot - duck in a fraction of a second.

What we dont know is, how long before the weapon sways, does it rise in the centre then sway or start off set (as oshan suggested) then move.

Unless it sways to a fair extend within maybe 1/5th if a second, then this discussion is valid.


If you dont beleive how quick this can be done, just ask, im sure oshan and me can get a squad together to take you on in a game of popup rifles :p
 

Rak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2005
3,539
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imho RO is about tactics, immersion and feeling of the battlefield, not about skillz

Interesting, for me RO has almost neither of what you mentioned in the first part, though there is plenty of the latter.

That's why the clan gaming is still strong, it takes a while to master this game and when you do, you dominate and you like it.
 

LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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Prussotroll's Bridge
well, its clear that the pros of insomnis see the skill in this highly competetive game
there are so many big prizes to win, such a huge community, so many clans and teams playing against each other its amazing!
 
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O'Shannon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 18, 2006
380
90
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Germany
[...] he needs to WAIT until his character exhales before taking the shot.[...]

well its all about timing

crouch-ironsights-controledbreathing-when you hold breath:
"uncrouch-shoot-crouch"
if kill: release controledbreathing and move on
else: hold controledbreathing and uncrouch-shoot-crouch

well "disalginment" and "DH suppression" would be unnecessary if crouch and uncrouch would actually take some time and 3rd-1st-person animations would be deadly accurate synchronized. unlike in ro:eek:st where uncrouch-shoot-crouch can be done in ~0.2-0.3sec.
 
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Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
12,458
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Falmouth UK
Even if going crouch and uncroucing would take a while, i really think that within the free aim zone the weapon would move.

As of now you can be standing remember where someone is go crouch put your weapon at the location where you remember the enemy to be and uncrouch. Within that movement the mouse remains pinpoint on the same spot, it would make more sense if your camera maybe slightly moves around so you need to reorient a little after changing stance.