Intelligent discourse on RO2:HoS's current gameplay

[[SM]Fluttershy]

I guess this would be a good chance to say I personally think that each team should have about 1 enginner maximum, and he should have a m38 or k98k rifle. I'd perfer that people took it to use the tools given, not for the gun which they happen to have.

True, though as the engineer is supposed to get up close and personal to do his job, the class would be at a huge disadvantage for its designed role. The SMG provided is "supposed" to be used for personal defense and to insure that the trooper gets to his demolition site safely, but most just drop the excess baggage encumbering the engineer class (i.e. AT nades/satchels). Furthermore, historically WW2 engineers/sappers were equipped with SMGs for personal defense as they were expected to be advancing on the enemy and clearing out routes for fellow troops- I don't see it as too much of an issue, but these following suggestions 'might' help the problem a little bit.

One thing that could assist with reducing the likelihood of this becoming an assault fall-back class would be to set its default speed at what it currently is, regardless of dropping equipment or not. This is based on the avatars for the German side, who look like they've packed enough gear for three men on their backs (Russians look like they have a small duffel bag, so not sure how that'd function for them). In addition, reducing the engineer slot cap to possibly 2 engineers per team in a 64-player server might do the trick, too.

EDIT: I think a huge reason for why the Engineer class isn't used as intended is because most engineers don't know what they need to blow up. Once this is resolved and engineers have a clear cut layout (via map and/or tactical view) of what they need to do, I think a lot of these issues will be cleared up.

 

[Buzzles]

With regards to people worrying about map target based arty spawn rape...well...the obvious answer to stop that would simply be to make the arty start off with a cooldown period before you can use it. I'm surprised there's not one already.

It would guard against any current arty spawn rapes as well, such as what you can get on Commissars' House.

Engineers certainly need a boost, however, if the destructable icons are added to the tactical overlay, I believe they should only show up within a small radius, perhaps 25m. Don't want to make it too easy or clutter up the view too much.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

With regards to people worrying about map target based arty spawn rape...well...the obvious answer to stop that would simply be to make the arty start off with a cooldown period before you can use it. I'm surprised there's not one already.

It would guard against any current arty spawn rapes as well, such as what you can get on Commissars' House.

Engineers certainly need a boost, however, if the destructable icons are added to the tactical overlay, I believe they should only show up within a small radius, perhaps 25m. Don't want to make it too easy or clutter up the view too much.

Just make the destroyable objects icons appear only if someone is an engineer or has a satchel charge. They dont need to be big icons either. The problem with limiting them to 25M, is that you need to know the destructible object is there first and be heading in that direction. That rather breaks the purpose of having a system to tell you where to go in the first place... ( chicken egg )

 

[hishnik]

With regards to people worrying about map target based arty spawn rape...well...the obvious answer to stop that would simply be to make the arty start off with a cooldown period before you can use it. I'm surprised there's not one already.

It would guard against any current arty spawn rapes as well, such as what you can get on Commissars' House.

No need to make a cooldown on it... As commander, i start shelling the most likely approach to the objective right off the bat. By the time arty lands (assuming i was alive throughtout the process of calling it in, already 30 seconds have gone by, plenty of time for staring wave+ one wave of reinforcements to get out

I think there should be different approach to spawn rape that would guarantee "fairness"... Invisible bubble directly over the spawn area. You cant shoot/shell in OR OUT. In order for it to be fair, inability to shoot out of it, absolutely must exist. Otherwise - we just found a new favorite camp spot

 

[2Lt.Horvath [6th AB]]

I agree with every point bar the random chatter that's common in RO2, in a public match it's okay but it really should have an off switch.

'Bout it for me beef haha.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

The AT rifle should do its realistic values...It would also be more valuable if the optics and other systems on tanks could be damaged or destroyed. ( IE shoot the glass plate the driver looks out and it gets some visible damage too it making it harder to see )

If the optics and vision ports on tanks could be damaged/destroyed then the tank would have to have all of its functions modeled in order to counter such damage. For example, shooting the driver's or commanders glass plate in order to make it harder to see would be easily countered by closing all viewports before they come under fire:

OPEN

Closed

Damaging the main optics with a one in a million shot would also be counterable due to the backup sight in Panzers. Look here:

[URL]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49640&highlight=panzer+sight[/URL]

This game is too primitive and lacking in basic tank functions such as those mentioned above. Putting in destructable optics/viewports without the countermeasures above would be nothing short of functional nerfage of the tanks.



.

 

[Apos]

Great post, as well as other post over here, totally agree.

I'd like to add only one point, Prototype weapons should be available only for heroes who pick elite-assault class (1 available per team). That should fix rarity on servers and would be consistent with TWI statement before they released game.

 

[Conscript]

Excellent post. I hope that keeping the discussion in this thread mature, well thought through and constructive will force TWI to sit up and take notice.

In addition to the OPs points (with which I cant find anything to disagree with) I'd like to add some things I think need changing.

Injury/Stamina Management, Sway and Movement

The game allows for injuries to certain parts of the body, but so far these seem nothing more than cosmetic. The game also models sway, but only a minute amount. I suggest we increase the sway for weapons based on stamina, so if you've just sprinted across half the map, the sway is a significant factor in aiming your shots. Make holding your breath drastically reduce the sway, but have it also based on stamina; if you are tired and breathing heavily, you cant hold your breath as long before needing to take a deep breath and lose your aiming concentration somewhat.

Incorporate damage to sway and movement too. If you get hit in the arms, make the weapon either sway more, or jitter about in unsteady hands. Perhaps make the sights drop downwards more, to replicate sore or injured muscles trying to support the gun.

For leg injuries, I would suggest NOT decreasing the standard running speed as in RO1. Instead, reduce just the sprinting speed and the total stamina level. Also, as the new engine supports head bobbing, perhaps make it more pronounced as you move, to replicate a slight limp in one leg. This way it's not like RO1 where a legshot slowed you to a crawl, but it's enough to have an impact in the way you play. You have a blatant visual indication that you are injured which might make you think twice about moving across open ground, or your own survival.

Bandaging

To me, this feature doesn't seem to have much point in ROHoS. It happens to quickly, and you have to do it within a certain amount of time, or you die. So if I run across an open field and take a bullet in the arm, I have two choices. Stop in the open to bandage and get shot again, or, carry on running and die from bleeding anyway.

In CQB it's just as annoying, but for the attacker. Open up on an opponent, but they bandage in a few seconds flat then just fire back. So even when you've got the drop on someone, and the situation should dictate that you are the winner, this mechanic allows them to turn what should be an un-winnable situation around.

I feel it would be better implemented if we could incorporate the above damage/stamina/movement model changes and make bandaging an option to reduce the effects of non lethal shots to your limbs. Make it take longer as well, so people don't feel inclined to stop in the middle of a firefight and do it.

Communications Rose

This works well but needs some improvement. The best option I think is to make the second tier of command buttons smaller and all on the same side as their master button.

For example. At the moment, if I want to request smoke. I have to hold the Rose button. Move my mouse to the left over "Support". Then, in order to click on "Request smoke", which is on the far right, I have to move my mouse out and around the whole rose to get to it, or I end up selecting something else. Madness!

Instead, when I move left to the "Support" button, make all of the sub options appear to the left of that button too. Do the same for all the other buttons in their respective directions so that selecting commands can be done with one fluid mouse movement in one general direction, rather than making me double back on myself and risk highlighting the wrong area of the command rose in the process.

This is something which has bugged me, so I might actually make a new thread with poorly drawn diagrams to help visualise it

Anyway, those are my key thoughts. Any constructive input welcome.

 

[Wookie87]

I would actually like to see alot more defenses etc to actually blow up on maps. The hedgehog style tank traps and barricades etc are fairly sparse, or at least fairly easy to bypass. I remember some Darkest Hour maps where engineers were pretty much essential in making gaps in barbed wire etc area so you could push up effectively into the cap zones.

In other words have maps that actually require proper demolition to keep an offensive moving.

 

[Insurance Salesman]

I basically agree with all the suggestions that the OP and Conscript have. Right now the game is a lot of fun and I don't want to go back to RO1's incredibly ponderous gameplay, but I would like some tweaks to cut down on what many see as unrealistically easy shooting.

 

[Nikita]

Actually, if you equip the satchel as an Engineer, destructible objects will be highlighted in yellow when you look at them. Seeing as most people don't play practice mode or single-player, however, it's hard to find the time to run around a map with a satchel staring at walls finding out what can and can't be destroyed.

Agree wholeheartedly with everything in the OP. Especially Anti-tank soldier issues.

Other suggestions:

--Engineer could use a bolt-action rifle option on some maps. That would definitely help on maps like say Fallen Fighters, Red October, or Commissar's House, as well as result in a "voluntary" cut down on SMGs.
--SVT-40 and MN 91/30 do not lose unfired rounds when reloaded when partially full. Just a low-priority accuracy issue.
--Light machine gun recoil a little odd, kicks upwards. Easy to control with experience, but still odd given bipod, weight of weapon...
--Mkb and MP40 could use a little more sway...
--Haft-Hohlladung should be planted directly on enemy tanks, not thrown... balance really notwithstanding, given the short throwing ranges currently present... <a href="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=65112" target="_blank">http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=65112
--ability to choose which unlocks are equipped would be appreciated.



Remaining bug fixes:
--inability to melee prone enemies. This is a fairly important gameplay issue.
--menus that automatically scroll up to the top when new players join/votes are cast. And I'm not sure if vote kicking even works, for that matter.
--automatically picking up weapons when walking over them, especially with low ammo
--audio bugs restricting some helpful sound effects/voices

Unusual T34 armor weakness/PIV strength for turret armor could use looking at perhaps.

Finally, Commissar's House could use some alterations to the spawn preventing the Germans from setting up MGs that can kill them instantaneously, or charging directly into later Soviet spawns with assault rifles blazing.

This thread is probably one of the most polite, constructive suggestion threads on the forums right now. I vote we try and keep that going. Let's keep it clean, lay off the frustration, and make this a good discussion,. Bravo to OP and others.:IS2:

 

[Conscript]

In response to Ramm-Jaeger's thread in GD:

The other thing I see a lot on the forums is grumbling about various aspects of the game, particularly that the game is either too realistic, or not realistic enough, or not realistic in the particular manner that whichever person posting the thread thinks the game should be. We're keeping our eye on the community and will certainly be incorporating community feedback as we move forward. You all can help us with this though by not making us wade through thread after thread that is either just blatantly flaming, or is just another useless "RO2 is dying" thread. Threads and posts like this make it difficult for us to get to the meat of what people's concerns and feedback truly are. So please help us receive your feedback by making well thought out and constructive posts, and keeping the flame thread/posts to a minimum.

I thought it might be worth bumping this thread again.

Please, keep your criticisms and suggestions intelligent, concise and detailed and hopefully this thread will get noticed and in some cases acted upon by the devs.

 

[2Lt.Horvath [6th AB]]

Well as much as a lot of the threads usually delve into the grumbling and general bickering a lot have at least an ounce of truth to them and an overall message. The game isn't realistic enough, I dare say i've never seen a thread saying there's too much realism (though i'd love to be proved wrong).

I've already given my support to this thread but like many I feel the best way to get a point across these days is hop onto MS word and just write a concise and coherent list / arguement explaining all the flaws. Hell i'm an English Literature student so this is what I do...The point is it's got to be balanced and have evidence. Now I see a hell of a lot of evidence floating around from various sources be it wikipedia or specialised sites focussing on really small topics like 'view ports in the Panzer IV'. If people want this game to change without a mod team doing it all then we're going to have to work together to reach the common goal (wow reading that back I sound socialist hehe).

I suppose the good point is the Devs ARE looking at what's being said and i'm sure they're starting to see patterns in the code (as-it-were) in regards to realism or there lack of. Have hope!

I know i've gone off topic, and I apologise.

 

[6S.Maraz]

Injury/Stamina Management, Sway and Movement

One important thing is that an injury, especially inflicted by a high energy weapon like a rifle at short distance, should have an incapacitating effect, lasting some seconds (no matter which is the body part which is hit, due to hydrostatic shock). So the sight should become completely blurred and aiming/shooting should be almost impossible. Today what happens is that you hit someone at close distance with your rifle, he shoots you back and kills you (maybe with the usual SMG or assault rifle that can put a lot of bullets in the opponent), and then he bandages !!!!

Maraz

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Thanks for the bump conscript I was thinking of creating a new thread / or bumping one of the old suggestions.

I've been giving the games balance some more thought in the context of realism.


Think with me here, in the process of slowly 'evolving' the game, our current iteration has improved on a lot of individual realistic bits. Meaning the summation of these as individuals might make the game "more realistic" however when observed all put together they actually make a less realistic outcome. Why you ask? Because we need the next iteration!

Ostfront was a good balance across the board, HOS improves upon and makes players abilities more realistic, however it completely ignores all external variables. A good shooter can hold a rifle about as steady as you can in HOS WHEN you are rested, have a resting heart beat, are not afraid for your life, and are not malnourished / hungry.

( I still do think there are problems with how fast you can IS and some other things, those are just un humanly fast )

What we have now is a system that is partly more realistic, but half of it is out of step with the other half.

The next piece to be given a realistic 'bump' would be surpression across the board.

To start with this will effect the human player and their avatar. Bullets need snapping sounds as they should have, anyone who has ever played ARMA Ace with the bullet cracks knows those things can really throw off your concentration as a player and have a great effect.

The avatar on the other hand should be effected by bullets and the death of those around him. Bullets passing by increases your heart rate ( which increases sway ), and increases your surpression level.

The surpression effects should be heavy enough such that a SMG or MG could neutralize an enemy positions ability to return fire without actually killing those enemies.

Keeping in mind that those trying to surpress others are probably being surpressed themselves, and the long lasting effects of surpression / fear / heart rate means that it will be a LOT harder to get hits on targets at range. And it will also be worth firing on the target even if you cant kill the target, because surpressing them will allow teammates to move up upon them.

 

[2Lt.Horvath [6th AB]]

I've said on numerous supression threads that supression is a three part system.

1- Noise!

The buller cracks and whizzes are enough on some games (ArmA, RnL, DH) to make you get your head down and fear for your little e-life. In RO2 there is no such sound, you just hear the faint noise of what ever's shooting at you. In my opinion this game could do with a sound mod for just about all the sounds, artillery, weapon fire and distant weapon fire as well. Along with the aforementioned whizzes and cracks.

2- Environment

Those bullets flying at you, particulaly from a machine gun are going to be hitting concrete, stone and earth and stupid speeds and with a lot of force, kicking up a hell of a lot of dust making the whole area being shot at unsettled and ...scary really.

3 - Physical

The suppression should have a major effect on the avatar as Colt calls it, the avatar's heart beat will go up horribly and his ability to aim will completely disappear, you're shaking! You're our of breath! You're fearing for your life. Yet in RO2 you can simply stand up and for the most part shoot back with pretty good accuracy. I quite like the screen effects but they are really simply aesthetic and don't really have any effect other than 'oh, my screen has gone all film noir on me'.

Here's a video from one of the games I was talking about. Resistance & Liberation, a resonably old yet quite well known Half Life 2 modification.

Suppression, knockdown and grenade effects in RnL Open Beta 1.5 - YouTube

 

[Colt .45 killer]

I would say go further than that video and have bullets that pass close enough to create a snap all have a micro flinch on the players aim. In CQB this wont matter, but it means you will be physically unable to quickly lean and pick off a shooter who is actively suppressing you.


Also the amount of sway generated from being surpressed seems to cap out pretty quickly, it should go a lot further than that.


The effects of suppression should clear up a bit faster when you are in groups, and killing players who were suppressing you should decrease it a bit further. IE you are being surpressed by a MG, your team flanks and grenades him, you are now less suppressed because you are not afraid of *that* mg killing you.