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Insurgency Mod ... EPIC THREAD OF DOOM

Insurgency Mod ... EPIC THREAD OF DOOM

  • It's Great! Check it out...NOW!!!

    Votes: 55 26.6%
  • It's just OK -- worth downloading but...

    Votes: 95 45.9%
  • It sucks buckets...

    Votes: 57 27.5%

  • Total voters
    207
We need landscape and support for large maps, and open spaces, Source does not do any of this, the engine can render some outside scenery in singleplayer, but we've seen time and time again that its just not working online (and a series of canyons is not a rolling landscape, just FYI), which is why every MP shooter on the Source engine is by and large set in urban suroundings, on fairly small maps with paths and choke points, surounded by fake backdrop, thats fine for CS, CS is just that and has allways been that, but if we are going the route of realism, then thats just not good enough, its only a small fraction of the possible combat locations you could think of and want to impliment.
The lack of scale and landscape is not acceptable for any TS.
UE2.5 landscapes aren't all that great: They really can only do rolling hills, they still severly lack draw distance, foliage layers (and i mean once that actually work an not just pop up 20 meters in front of you) and most of all: details such as vegetation. Other game engines do landscapes much better. The best maps in RO are still set in a urban or semi-urban setting. Once they rely solely on landscapes, they feel... empty (e.g. Krivoi Rog). That also turns most firefights into "hunt the enemy pixels", because they seriously lack cover.
Netcode is also a big problem, Hitbox detection for instance is absolute rubbish on Source! you may not notice it much playing CS or HL2DM, but with a TS the need for precision is much higher, and higher than Source will deliver.
Same with its "Lag compensation" system, whoever thought up that one should be hung from the nearest light pole, having to shoot at where the enemy just was, and not where he is right now is just not acceptable for a TS, again, we need more precision, infact, i'd rather see a bad case of warping than this in a TS!
Likewise the ping, a TS is by and large a fringe thing, usually having a small but dedicated community, but this also means fewer servers, and people having to play with higher pings as a result, Source hates high pings, much more so than many other engines (including Unreal), many other games you can ping 200 or 300 and still be good to go, but with Source, you want double digits and no higher than that, or the problems start to rear their ugly head..
All this stuff about how pings greater than 100 are still acceptable in RO is rubbish: Maybe you won't warp a lot, but you can still tell there's a lot of delay, making bolt-actions a no-go. Not to even mention the strange irks that come with it, like tank shots disappearing and stugs being forced to always shoot straight. With the source engine i at least find a lot more servers giving me a ping of <80.

Projectile support is also rubbish, Source bogs down very quickly with many objects in the air, hence its reliance on Hitscan weapons, or projectile weapons that fire very slowly (such as rocket launchers and the like).
But there is nothing real about Hitscan, and again, Unreal has used projectiles on automatic weapons since its inception and can pull it off!
That is just plain bull****. Unreals weapons are mostly hitscan, and the only weapons that fire projectiles, fire very slow ones and have a low rate of fire:

UT2004:
assault rifle: hitscan
minigun: hitscan
sniper rifle / lightning gun: hitscan
shock rifle: obviously hitscan
pulse rifle: projectile weapon, and the only fast firing one too
flak: projectile
rocket launcher: projectile
bio rifle: projectile

At least source makes another very important feature possible: bullet penetration. The lack of it makes some RO maps very unrealistic.
 
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All this stuff about how pings greater than 100 are still acceptable in RO is rubbish: Maybe you won't warp a lot, but you can still tell there's a lot of delay, making bolt-actions a no-go. Not to even mention the strange irks that come with it, like tank shots disappearing and stugs being forced to always shoot straight. With the source engine i at least find a lot more servers giving me a ping of <80.

I can play fine with upto 200ping as rifleman the netcode in RO is excellent and the best ive come across.
 
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The INF penetration mutator is not in a working, playable condition and no server is running it. So it stays on the list.
I think if the game is optimized for bullet penetration it will work.

But it would take loads of effort in trying to get it working right, testing, optimizing, more testing, more optimizing...
 
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The INF penetration mutator is not in a working, playable condition and no server is running it. So it stays on the list.

Incorrect, it is indeed in a playable condition as my clan had it on their server, the only reason its no longer on it is because it was too much hassle to take it off every time there was a clanmatch.

I know that the DBDUK server also had it amongst a few others.

And just for the record, didn't Infiltration the UT99 mod have bullet penetration or am i thinking of another mod?
 
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I just checked all the populated servers and NONE was running it. Also the only times i played it the server lagged like hell and the penetration was pretty buggy. Maybe it could've been brought to a working condition with time and access to the source code, that is another question.

As of now, there is no working penetration in Red Orchestra or any other UE2.5 game.

INF is UE1: different engine, different matter.


Tripwire did an amazing job stretching the borders of the engine and it shows: Considerably more net traffic than standard UT2k4 resulting in higher pings. I assume bullet penetration is simply a corner they didn't want to cut.
 
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Yeah well, penetration is a lot easier to do with just hitscan weapons.
Just make them do half the damage once they pass a wall and off you go. We could do the same in RO easily, why couldn't we, but we wanted it to be better. Having bullets stopped once they pass too far into a wall etc.
Source can't do that! Bullets just penetrate, well yeah, shots just penetrate. There aren't even any bullets.:p
 
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Source bullets stop after they passed a certain number of walls, as far as I know. Not a certain thickness. Unacceptable for a realistic game.

So you say that having railguns that would simply penetrate everything is better than having no penetration at all? I concur.
Having no penetration for bullets at all is simple. Its easily set in the options of a StaticMesh that is placed in a level. It should be possible to apply the same to terrains if needed, and even Brushes could be made penetratable although it wouldn't be that easy and you would probably need a blocking volume for every Brush so everything is blocked but bullets. Still, it would be easy. Its just not done because its nonsense.

It would make sense to set the wooden fence StaticMesh so bullets can go through it. You have to tell that to the mappers.

The problem is, that with that method you could shoot from one end of the level to the next. There have to be walls that stop the bullet, because a real bullet can't go on forever penetrating things either.

However if there are some things that can be shot through and others who can't be shot through that would make maps barely playable because you wouldn't know where you could shoot through and where you couldn't.
The only practical way is to go the bullet-penetration-mutator's way and make it more complex.
 
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Noone who has ever shot a firearm would say something like that. People with no experience on firearms underestimate the penetration power a rifle bullet has. On the combat ranges we have in a typical Red Orchestra map (up to 200-300m) a 7,92mm Mauser can go through a brick wall and more. Having a half-baked penetration system is still much more realistic than having none at all and yes it would be better.

Penetration would change A LOT in this game, which might very well be a reason why it isn't put in. Penetration isn't a "nice to have" feature in a realistic tactical shooter, it is just as essential as ballistics. INF lacks the latter, RO the former.
 
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If Kraut thinks Sauce is the best engine for realism, let him think that, fine.:) People often have trouble admitting they're wrong.:D

And yeah, bullet penetration is one of the best features in INS, but it's possible in Unreal too. America's Army has it.

I know Source fanb0ys like to toss each other off in glee and anticipation (c Yahtzee) of anything that comes out on that engine, but Source is not the end-all-be-all engine of all time.
 
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UE2.5 landscapes aren't all that great: They really can only do rolling hills, they still severly lack draw distance, foliage layers (and i mean once that actually work an not just pop up 20 meters in front of you) and most of all: details such as vegetation. Other game engines do landscapes much better. The best maps in RO are still set in a urban or semi-urban setting. Once they rely solely on landscapes, they feel... empty (e.g. Krivoi Rog). That also turns most firefights into "hunt the enemy pixels", because they seriously lack cover.

What do you expect? its 2003 tech, ofcourse it doesen't measure up to more recent engines, thats a given! but it can do more than rolling hills, add in static meshes and you can make mountains if you want, or any number of other things, the terrain is supposed to be used togeather with static meshes to make a more detailed world.
And RO is not a great yard stick for what can be done with UED 2.5 tech terrain wise, simply because of its setting, Russia is not the most diversive of places, the endless plains are pretty much.. well barren really.
You can do much more with the tech, but RO could not do so without loosing its Russia feel.

And foilage too, yes it only draws stuff like grass to a certain distance, but that doesen't stop you from making bushes and whatever using static meshes, and thouse will allways draw.

The engine is certainly showing its age, that is to be expected, but still, the very fact that it can and will do terrain instantly makes it a better choice for a TS than Source.

But lets not forget that UED 3.0 is right around the corner, and i for one am looking very much forward to seeing how far it can be pushed in this direction! it'll be interesting to say the least.

But for the record, i have never, ever, said that the Unreal engine has the best terrain, where are you getting that!?

All this stuff about how pings greater than 100 are still acceptable in RO is rubbish: Maybe you won't warp a lot, but you can still tell there's a lot of delay, making bolt-actions a no-go. Not to even mention the strange irks that come with it, like tank shots disappearing and stugs being forced to always shoot straight. With the source engine i at least find a lot more servers giving me a ping of <80.

Your standards are way too high, i can play with Bolties with a 150 ~ 200 ping, yes there's a few quirks to it, i never said it was smooth as butter, but it works, and you can play! not so on Source, and thats the point, Source's "Anti lag" features make it unplayable if you ping high, because its just plain bad design, other games are much more forgiving.

Hell i used to play Infiltration with a 300 ping or higher, back in my dial up days, it was not all roses, but i was playing!

A bad connection will allways be a bad connection, but how the engine handles it does differ, Source handles it very poorly indeed, UT rather well, but i have seen better still.

That is just plain bull****. Unreals weapons are mostly hitscan, and the only weapons that fire projectiles, fire very slow ones and have a low rate of fire:

*sigh* where have i ever said anything to the contrary? i said Unreal has been able to do it since the origional (the Stinger!), and supports it quite well, also evidenced by mods like Serpentine and Infiltration, and ofcourse, RO.

But this is not really about the Unreal engine, there are many other engines that also make a prime candidate for a TS, nor is it about RO, this is about the Source engine beeing a very poor choice for any realistic shooter, with Source you will have to jump through countless fiery hoops to get an end product that even borders on the realistic, and in the end it will fall short in many aspects.. so why choose it when there is no shortage of other engines that are infinately more suited for that kind of game?
 
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As of now, there is no working penetration in Red Orchestra or any other UE2.5 game.

Wrong, there's actually a small semi-realism Sci-Fi mod for UT2k4 called "Ballistic Weapons" that does penetration, but it does use Hitscan (it is only semi-real Sci-Fi aterall, with guns Akimbo and all that, but it does have some nice features).

INF is UE1: different engine, different matter.

Its not like the engine underwent a quantum leap, it is very much possible in 2.5 as the projectile code is largely unchanged from the ut99 days, but apparently, RO's code is the problem here, for it to work well, the Dev's themselves would have to impliment it, anything else would be a patch job that eats up too many CPU cycles.
 
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To avoid any flame wars I think it's better to put this to rest once and for all: it would have been better if INS was made using a different graphics engine. (Period. Case closed.)


They had(!) a right idea, just the wrong plan of action IMHO. If somebody made a similar modern combat game on a different engine, I'm sure it would be very popular and financially successful. And maybe somebody will make something like INS somewhere in the near future using a better suited engine.
 
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To avoid any flame wars I think it's better to put this to rest once and for all: it would have been better if INS was made using a different graphics engine. (Period. Case closed.)

Technically yes, politically no!

You people forget that from modding perspective Source is probably the easiest to get into. In case I would be starting any serious mod, I'd probably pick Source, warts, short rendering distances and all. Unreal engines are, and always were THE best, bar none, but they cost money, and are very complex to work with (well for me at least).

Also, once you do mod on Unreal engine what next? Hope for some future "Million dollar mod" contest, or whatever it was called, sponsored by Epic and nVidia? This may never come.

If Unreal is the best engine in the industry (and it is) Valve is by far the smartest developer in the PC gaming world. Steam service, Source SDK, Half Life, Portal, Team Fortress 2, Orange Box, episodic gaming.... like them or not (and I personally don't like HL2 at all) those are one incredibly smart move after another. Inventive and bold moves too!

Valve cherishes and nurtures relationship with their modders, and has highest and by far most successful "mod to full game" ratio in the industry. They are actively observing mod teams, waiting to offer contracts for full games to the best of them! (INS unfortunately does not belong to this category LOL).

Think about that.

(On the other side of spectrum if probably Battlefield engine - modding it must be nightmarish experience, with absolutely no hope of support or getting a commercial contract once the job is done.)

If any of you thinks of making a mod as doorway to gaming industry you will pick Source, and live with all the shortcomings, period.
 
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