Infantry weapons that should be added for Red orchestra 2

[Victhor-ASH]

This thing is stupid, if you imagine that by removing all the upgrades will make the game more balanced, this topic is about ading weapons that would improve the balance, what you are suggesting is to remove all the upgrades that are rare, but I must ask you why do you think it will improve balance.

By removing the upgrades it will result in very casual encounters, as an example the mp 40: 2 is a weapon wich has a defined strategy to be played, it was used but it was very difficult to produce, by removing it it will result in a gameplay situation that will be very casual. This game is different from Red orchestra 1 with the new mechanics more upgrades and weapons are needed to emply new strategies to the game.

The Mkb and Avt eventough rare they are the only multirole weapons in the game. By removing them you wouldn't have any weapons specialised in assaulting fortified and heavy defended positions this is why the weapons are perfect in. In my opinion by ading more weapons rare weapons would make the game a lot more fun to play, in my opinion it would be just too casual with the normal weapons that were used in high numbers. Were isn't something specific it employs using tactics to combat the enemy specialised weaponry, by cuting down on the specialised weapons the gameplay would be just to casual it would be same like Red orchestra 1 just with a few mechanics.

And with the scouting class, what would be the purpose of bayonets if the enemy is at a far distance, if you sneak in a building and you want to not be spoted you should use the Mosin nagant pistol. Red orchestra is a game not a simulator so the point of having very general weapons wich were used in every battle isn't a pretty good one because a game is meant to be fun. Arma 2 is a very accurate and realistic shooter and I don't see any person complaining about what weapons should be used and were should they be used. We can't respect 100% accurately the battle conditions because the reports are not 100% accurate you don't know how many soldiers got a bayonet or how many weapons did they use in the battle, the number is an aproximation.

 

[Clowndoe]

Just give up now Ross, you did your best. Just let this sink.

 

[ross]

This thing is stupid, if you imagine that by removing all the upgrades will make the game more balanced, this topic is about ading weapons that would improve the balance, what you are suggesting is to remove all the upgrades that are rare, but I must ask you why do you think it will improve balance.

I already said why. The Soviets are far better in close quarters, but the Germans dominate longer ranges due to the MG 34's superiority. Both sides have similarly excellent rifles and sniper rifles. The fight tends to favour the Germans in open areas, but the advantage shifts when it moves indoors or down narrow streets. This was the case in Ostfront and it provided interesting, dynamic gameplay where the initiative would swing from one team to the other based on where the fighting was taking place. Trying to add all sorts of super rare weapons which neither side issued to regular infantry units anywhere, let alone within Stalingrad, simply makes the game less interesting because suddenly both sides are at relative parity in any environment.

By removing the upgrades it will result in very casual encounters, as an example the mp 40: 2 is a weapon wich has a defined strategy to be played, it was used but it was very difficult to produce, by removing it it will result in a gameplay situation that will be very casual. This game is different from Red orchestra 1 with the new mechanics more upgrades and weapons are needed to emply new strategies to the game.

What on Earth are you talking about? Define 'casual'. I honestly am not sure you understand what it means, because that entire paragraph makes no sense to me.

The Mkb and Avt eventough rare they are the only multirole weapons in the game. By removing them you wouldn't have any weapons specialised in assaulting fortified and heavy defended positions this is why the weapons are perfect in.

On the contrary, you would actually need your team to work together in some semblance of a real rifle squad as the rifles and MG cover the submachine gunners who carry out the assault. The MKb and AVT reduce what could be interesting emergent gameplay into samey mush where two or three guys are do-everything wondersoldiers who don't need any support.

In my opinion by ading more weapons rare weapons would make the game a lot more fun to play, in my opinion it would be just too casual with the normal weapons that were used in high numbers.

Again, I don't think casual means what you think it means.

In any case, the game would actually be more interesting with the normal weapons, because it forces the team to work together to complete objectives. The second you give people assault rifles or suppressed sniper rifles or grenade launchers, that goes down the plug. The glue that holds teams together is the need for mutual support between the normal weapons, because each one has a specific role. The moment you remove that, it turns into a bunch of people doing their own thing and you may as well be playing any mainstream FPS.

Were isn't something specific it employs using tactics to combat the enemy specialised weaponry, by cuting down on the specialised weapons the gameplay would be just to casual it would be same like Red orchestra 1 just with a few mechanics.

Adding exceptionally rare prototype weapons - and I mean exceptionally rare - will certainly make the game 'casual', because it will become just like all the casual shooters on the market and destroy everything that makes RO - the mod, Ostfront, and even RO2 - unique.

 

[Max Damage]

RPD could have been added. i know i know it was after stalingrad but since we re short of guns and having mkb then why not.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Ross i dont think if you add upgrades or weapons to diversify the game would make the game unrealistic. People dont follow the objectives because of the leveling system they want just to level up and get a higher level for the weapon.By removing the rare weapons red orchestra would not change a lot, people will not suddenly start to play acording to tactics. By ading more choices they will spcialise in certain types of classes.

Why not add a stealth class so that you could harass the enemy, if we take your solution as an answer we would consider only one battle scenario by this i mean that the gameplay tactics would not change a lot from red 1. By adding a stealth recon class armed with silenced weapons would be a very good way to harass like, if the enemy tryes to call in a bombardment you can kill the comander and stop the bombardment. Specialised and prototype weapons aren't the issue the people are, because they don't want to respect the game ranging and listen to the higher person in charge from the squad.

I can garante you that by adding more weapons it would only make the experience of the game much more pleasing. I didn't saw a game ruined by adding too many weapons. So I don't really see that much of a problem. What you are suggesting is a red orchestra 1 copy with new mechanics. Why not improve that and add more features than the ones you mentioned, wouldn't this have a good impact on the gameplay I mean that people would start using theyr roles properly, because in the game no one wants to use the riflemen. By adding more classes like stealth or flamethrower would increase the scale and give you more tactics to flank the enemy.

Also by adding the prototype weapons only for a specialised class would keep the roles of the armies, Germans for long ranges and soviets for close quarters, but the roles can shift because in the game many people steal the weapons from the dead soldiers, so what you are suggesting is not really a solution here.

 

[ross]

Ross i dont think if you add upgrades or weapons to diversify the game would make the game unrealistic.

None of the things you have suggested - other than rifle grenades, which would simply not work with this style of game - were used by regular Wehrmacht or RKKA formations in 1942/3. None of them. Pretty clearly, that would make a game about those units unrealistic.

People dont follow the objectives because of the leveling system they want just to level up and get a higher level for the weapon.By removing the rare weapons red orchestra would not change a lot, people will not suddenly start to play acording to tactics. By ading more choices they will spcialise in certain types of classes.

Wait a minute, are you suggesting that the unlock system specifically causes people to avoid teamplay and then somehow saying that removing unlocks will not change this? You're contradicting your own argument. As for changing the gameplay, I disagree strongly. Last time I played a game where nobody was using an MKb or AVT I was watching squads moving together and covering each other exactly like I remembered seeing in RO1, and like what really happened, because they had to if they wanted to survive.

Why not add a stealth class so that you could harass the enemy, if we take your solution as an answer we would consider only one battle scenario by this i mean that the gameplay tactics would not change a lot from red 1.

How do you propose to harass the enemy on maps like the ones we have now? Do you have any idea how loud a gunshot is, even with a suppressor? Apparently not. It does not silence the shot, it just makes it quieter. It is still very audible and still distinctly a gunshot. Even assuming you add dedicated sentry-removal weapons (which were very quiet), it is still pointless on maps that are not really very large and which are objective-driven. This is not deathmatch, your team has an objective to capture and hold. Making a class whose entire purpose is to run around avoiding objectives and shooting people will kill the game, you may as well play CoD.

By adding a stealth recon class armed with silenced weapons would be a very good way to harass like, if the enemy tryes to call in a bombardment you can kill the comander and stop the bombardment.

This class exists, but without the suppressed weapons. It is called "marksman". That is what it is for. We don't need another one, except this time with suppressed weapons.

Specialised and prototype weapons aren't the issue the people are, because they don't want to respect the game ranging and listen to the higher person in charge from the squad.

And that will only get worse when you give them a weapon that encourages deathmatch-style play instead of assaulting an objective.

I can garante you that by adding more weapons it would only make the experience of the game much more pleasing. I didn't saw a game ruined by adding too many weapons.

I have. Shattered Horizon had a single weapon. They then added a class system and more weapons later and it completely broke the game, making it poorly balanced and not very fun. TF2 was well-balanced and fun to play when it released, but now there are so many weapons that balance is essentially impossible and it just turns the game into a mess. There are more examples out there, but none would be as bad as if you started adding weapons that even Call of Duty shies away from to RO2.

So I don't really see that much of a problem. What you are suggesting is a red orchestra 1 copy with new mechanics.

Well that is actually what most people expected and wanted RO2 to be, yes. That's what I thought it would be until it released, because everything I saw about it suggested it kept RO1's historical accuracy and gameplay but added enhancements that would improve immersion and smooth out the rough parts.

If you want something fundamentally different to Red Orchestra from this game, I would honestly suggest you look elsewhere. I'm not trying to be rude, I just doubt this game will ever satisfy what you want from it (and if it did, I suspect most people would stop playing it altogether).

Why not improve that and add more features than the ones you mentioned, wouldn't this have a good impact on the gameplay I mean that people would start using theyr roles properly, because in the game no one wants to use the riflemen.

And even less people will want to use a normal, grenade-less, unsuppressed 91/30 or K98 when they can have a Fedorov Avtomat or shoot rifle grenades from a suppressed rifle.

By adding more classes like stealth or flamethrower would increase the scale and give you more tactics to flank the enemy.

How about making larger maps to increase the scale? How about adding more weapons that were actually used? How about more vehicles, or more variety in environments? Where are the steppe maps, the Don crossing, the Romanian positions on the 6th Army's flank? I would like to see a flamethrower, because it was commonly used in Stalingrad and would actually add distinct gameplay while encouraging teamplay. Giving people suppressed weapons that were not used by regular units, and which reward people playing for kills instead of objectives, would not.

Also by adding the prototype weapons only for a specialised class would keep the roles of the armies, Germans for long ranges and soviets for close quarters, but the roles can shift because in the game many people steal the weapons from the dead soldiers, so what you are suggesting is not really a solution here.

And that is why something needs to be done about unlocking enemy weapons as well. If people pick up dropped enemy weapons, fine, but spawning with them turns the game into a snorefest.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

I have hero level on the assault class and I have all the upgrades on the weapons, what I noticed is that the Mp 40 II can't be compared with the ppsh 41 is just an extended magasine version wich I don't really think it would affect the gameplay in such a way to make the germans have an overpowered close quarter weapons, i don't know if I am wrong, but I know that the officers were issued automatic mauser pistols instead of the normal smg-s shouldn't that be an addable feature.

Also I know what you mean by adding more weapons would be wrong, but the prototypes should be in a very small amount, but really I dont see any reason why not adding the: Avs 36, the mp41 or the ppd40 and the pps 42. The ppd 40 wouldve been a better match for the mp 40 because they have the weaknesses and theyr strenghts much more exposed. But also why do not add the Dt 29 machinegun for russians is the same like the dp 28 but has a higher capacity mag and a higher rate of fire and also recoil to compensate from that. I played a lot of Men of war and there the infantry men had lots and lots of rifles and weapon models, they had different stats, but the thing was that the prototype weapons didn't really make any difference.

The game changing thing in the battle was the mortar or the tripod lmg, wich comes to mind why dont employ ingame movable trypod mgs like the russian maxim or the german machinegewehr. Because I don't think that by adding the fedorov avtomat or the Mg 26 would be such a threat to the game balance. I played many Red orchestra 2 matches I have level 82 and I didn't saw much of a problem in the Mkb and the Avt, they are just weapons used for a double purpose. Many times you cant even use the weapons because you are the main target for all the enemies. Also what I wanted to suggest is that shouldn't the prototypes be issued for the Commanders of the squads instead of the assaults ? The Mg 26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZB_vz._26 the german used it intensively at Stalingrad. Or the vz 24 rifles wich are the same like the mausers but have a higher recoil and calibre, they were used at Stalingrad in high numbers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._24 also if you want to verify the sources of how many weapons were used I suggest this website http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/automatic-fedorov-e.html

 

[ross]

I have hero level on the assault class and I have all the upgrades on the weapons, what I noticed is that the Mp 40 II can't be compared with the ppsh 41 is just an extended magasine version wich I don't really think it would affect the gameplay in such a way to make the germans have an overpowered close quarter weapons, i don't know if I am wrong, but I know that the officers were issued automatic mauser pistols instead of the normal smg-s shouldn't that be an addable feature.

Do you have any evidence at all to back this up? I'd love to see it, since the M712 was costly and time-consuming to build and impractical for use in combat at best. I guarantee you that this is false.

Also I know what you mean by adding more weapons would be wrong, but the prototypes should be in a very small amount

We were also told this about the MKb and AVT, and even that 'very small amount' really drastically altered gameplay for the worst.

but really I dont see any reason why not adding the: Avs 36, the mp41 or the ppd40 and the pps 42.

Out of all of those the PPD-40 is the only weapon that would have been encountered in Stalingrad by regular troops. The AVS was no longer in regular service, having been replaced by the SVT-38 and then the SVT-40 which replaced that, and the PPS-42 was manufactured too late and too far away to have seen service in Stalingrad.

The ppd 40 wouldve been a better match for the mp 40 because they have the weaknesses and theyr strenghts much more exposed.

What are you talking about? The PPD-40's 'weakness' was that it was too costly to mass-produce efficiently. Functionally it was almost identical to the PPSh, but with a slightly lower rate of fire.

But also why do not add the Dt 29 machinegun for russians is the same like the dp 28 but has a higher capacity mag and a higher rate of fire and also recoil to compensate from that. I played a lot of Men of war and there the infantry men had lots and lots of rifles and weapon models, they had different stats, but the thing was that the prototype weapons didn't really make any difference.

Then go play Men of War some more.

I also play that game a lot, and I'm not sure what version you're playing, but most of the bread-and-butter units do not have experimental weapons. They have common, mass-issue weapons. The special units you can get in Men of War are not even relevant to Red Orchestra 2, and neither are the weapons they use.

I will, however, agree that the DT ought to be introduced in small numbers.

The game changing thing in the battle was the mortar or the tripod lmg, wich comes to mind why dont employ ingame movable trypod mgs like the russian maxim or the german machinegewehr.

Because they do not fit the context of this game at all. They work in Men of War or the upcoming Iron Front game because there are hundreds of men on the field, fulfilling every role from logistics to infantry. Several of RO's mods had mortars, and they could be useful, but all they really did was take away from riflemen you would be attacking with. RO2's artillery system already accounts for mortars anyway.

As for portable HMGs... it wouldn't work. At all. It would destroy gameplay because the second you set that thing up overlooking a spawn exit or cruicial objective, the game is over.

Because I don't think that by adding the fedorov avtomat or the Mg 26 would be such a threat to the game balance. I played many Red orchestra 2 matches I have level 82 and I didn't saw much of a problem in the Mkb and the Avt, they are just weapons used for a double purpose. Many times you cant even use the weapons because you are the main target for all the enemies. Also what I wanted to suggest is that shouldn't the prototypes be issued for the Commanders of the squads instead of the assaults ? The Mg 26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZB_vz._26 the german used it intensively at Stalingrad.

The ZB is one of the few things you have suggested which actually makes sense as it was both historically present and would serve towards improving teamplay without upsetting the balance between classes. Adding more assault rifles would make every other class obsolete and adding suppressed weapons encourages players to avoid teamplay.

Suppressed weapons, 20rd K98 mags, 91/30 obrez rifles, the AVS, the PPS-42, the Fedorov... none of these would have been seen by your average soldier in Stalingrad, because they not in common service. The obrez wasn't even used by the regular infantry of the Red Army at all.

EDIT - Your own source states that the Fedorov was not used at all during WWII.

The last conflict that saw action of Fedorov rifles was Winter war with Finland in 1940, when some Fedorov rifles were withdrawnfrom storage and issued to elite units of Red Army.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Those were only ideeas for ugrades of course. The best thing to do now would be to invite maybe logistic officers wich supplied the weapons to tell us how many weapons were issued.

Also I looked on some graphics here http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/automatic-fedorov-e.html and this gun would have been used in much more higher numbers than the Mkb so why not incorporate this instead of the Mkb ? If the russians had closequarters specialised soldiers.

Because of the very small amount in a battle wouldn't be so game changing. This topic is about upgrades and ideeas of weapons that should be implemented, so if there are some weapons to implement I suggest the Dt 29 for russian mg or a portable variant for the maxim to be fast depolyed, also for the germans I suggest this weapon http://world.guns.ru/machine/chex/zb-26-e.html the zb 26 also if you notice the first variant it has a drum mg instead of a magasine. I really need your opinion about how would the upgrades would change the gameplay in Original mode, like the mp 40 II or the c96 auto ? I would like more suggestions for weapon attachments to discuss on this thread.

 

[ross]

Also I looked on some graphics here http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/automatic-fedorov-e.html and this gun would have been used in much more higher numbers than the Mkb so why not incorporate this instead of the Mkb ? If the russians had closequarters specialised soldiers.

Er, no? That very same page states clearly that the Fedorov was retired from use during or after the Winter War, a year before the Germans invaded the Soviet Union and two years before Stalingrad. There were none in service during WWII. They were not used at all. Soviet assault troops used the PPD and, after early 1942, the PPSh-41, as well as fighting knives, grenades, entrenching tools and anything else that came to hand. They did not use the Fedorov, as there were none in service. They did not use the obrez, a weapon mostly used during the Revolution and then later by partisans, never by the Red Army's infantry.

Because of the very small amount in a battle wouldn't be so game changing. This topic is about upgrades and ideeas of weapons that should be implemented, so if there are some weapons to implement I suggest the Dt 29 for russian mg or a portable variant for the maxim to be fast depolyed, also for the germans I suggest this weapon http://world.guns.ru/machine/chex/zb-26-e.html the zb 26 also if you notice the first variant it has a drum mg instead of a magasine. I really need your opinion about how would the upgrades would change the gameplay in Original mode, like the mp 40 II or the c96 auto ? I would like more suggestions for weapon attachments to discuss on this thread.

Because having upgrades in the first place causes people to try and farm for kills rather than actually play the game for the objectives. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

The only weapons or attachments in the game should be those which are proven to have been present, in noteworthy numbers, in Stalingrad. They should not have to be unlocked and weapons should not magically 'upgrade' with kills.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Yea but by the upgrades I mean like having in the Original mode to choose from some of them, I don't mean like modifying the options and the weapons stats just the attachment. Like the Mp 40 puting it with double mags, or the Mg 34 with belt fed magasine.

 

[ross]

That changes the weapon functionally, just like changing the weapon's stats does. If you include them as a separate option instead of an unlock, nobody is going to use the others.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

But putting them for specific classes like only the commander or the elite assault to have use of them would make them pretty used, also I want to continue the discussion as a debate for ideeeas do you have a skype or messenger adress wich we can discuss ?

 

[ross]

Giving the commander a weapon which encourages killing rather than teamplay is just about the worst possible thing you could do. I have already seen plenty of commanders running amok with M712s rather than actually doing their job.

The 'elite assault' class only exists because the MKb and AVT were too common when given to regular assault players, since almost everybody was using them over the SMGs. Without those weapons, that class no longer has any reason to exist - and nor should it.

I am perfectly happy keeping things in this thread.

 

[AtheistIII]

I think suppressed weapons and a stealth/saboteur class could actually fun to play, but not in the regular game modes we have at the time.
You would need to create infiltration missions (for example, only satchel objectives, night time, single-life and with a big numerical superority on side of the defender), but this would be work for modders, not for TWI imo.
Maybe it should be a coop-mode, but as I said, leave this to the modders.

I also dont get what this argument about RO:Ost is, as Ost had a heck of different weapons, I guess nearly ten times as much as RO2.
The thing is, as Ost covered the whole war on the eastern front they were deployed according to their historical appearance (not sure about the Panzerfaust here).
I haven't seen any Stg44 on the Stalingrad map if I remember correctly.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Why not add a grenade launcher for the engineers, beeing more like a supressive weapon to stun the enemies, only a frontal hit would kill with an explosive grenade. The Shrapanel one would be used to make the enemy bleed over time but still be able to fight ? Like I said only a direct hit to a soldier would kill him. Also I want to discuss about more weapon attachments, such as the 25 rounds for the rifles, or the g41. Or the flash supressors for the snipers.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

I usually find abrupt posts without any detailing or reasoning to be annoying, but I think I'll make an exception this time:

No.

 

[Torio]

Flammenwerfer 35, Flammenwerfer 41

OOOOH!! did you just say flamethrower? Man, I am getting an RO boner....

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Yea but also I want suggestions for Red orchestra 2 upgrades for smg-s or rifles

,

Here are some ppsh variants also a specialised one for stealth gameplay. http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/partisan.htm for the mosin nagant rifles. Also some info about russian grenade launchers. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=103993

 

[Avtomat]

Bent barreled , Maffia converted and Night Vision PPSh variants as upgredes?

NO!

Oh and about the Soviet grenade launchers.
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by Rodan Lewarx on 08 Jul 2006, 00:18
Yes, it was a greande launcher by Diakonov for Mosin rifle. It was used in the 1941-42 but it was not effective and was removed from inventory in 1942.

Here is the picture from http://weltkrieg.ru/weapons/rifle_gr/

Regards

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from the link you provided in a previous post.