Infantry weapons that should be added for Red orchestra 2

[Rrralphster]

Complete list of Lend Lease Materials/Ordonance

[url]http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/documents/index.htm[/URL]

Look and you will find that the Russians received 137.729 Cal .45 submachineguns.
Please, tell me they used them only for propoganda purposes...

[url]http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/documents/files/Part_3A_pages_1-26.pdf[/URL]


12.997 Cal .45 Pistols (Type M1911 and M1911A1)
They only used these in propoganda pictures as well?

 

[ross]

Considering the fact that PPSh production was in full swing by the time Stalingrad happened, and that .45 ACP was not being produced domestically, I can't see them relying too heavily on LL small arms. I imagine they would've been issued to those less likely to see combat, otherwise they would've burned through whatever ammo they had very rapidly.

I'm not saying they weren't used at all by the Red Army, though - just that they are, compared to the PPSh, rather irrelevant.

 

[Rrralphster]

Considering the fact that PPSh production was in full swing by the time Stalingrad happened, and that .45 ACP was not being produced domestically, I can't see them relying too heavily on LL small arms. I imagine they would've been issued to those less likely to see combat, otherwise they would've burned through whatever ammo they had very rapidly.

I'm not saying they weren't used at all by the Red Army, though - just that they are, compared to the PPSh, rather irrelevant.

This is all you need to make cartridges/bullets.
But I will bet someone will find a silly arguement why they didn't have this simple equipment. So please, bring it...

Very tiring discussions over here. I provide documents/evidence/proof and still, no go...
Same as the discussions about PTRD/PTRS, PzIV (G)F2 being the main German tank at Stalingrad, Mkb's, MG-42 (still only seen one little piece of evidence on 1 (one, uno, eins, une) piece of crap paper...

 

[AtheistIII]

Please, I beg of you, show me undeniable proof of the MG-42 in Stalingrad.

Found that report of the Infantry regiment 54 wich was destroyed at Stalingrad:

Also in the Wolgograd Panorama Museum a MG-42 is exhibited, not a proof but a hint.

A german propaganda article about the introduction of the MG-42 in Stalingrad:

I'm not to sure if the article is mere fiction by the propagandaministry as it talks about 3000bpm, or if thats just a single exaggeration.
The article describes the MG-42 and its impact on an enemy quite well, so i personally take it as a hint that the MG-42 was at Stalingrad.

 

[Rrralphster]

Found that report of the Infantry regiment 54 wich was destroyed at Stalingrad:

-snip-

Yes, THIS piece of paper.

It shows 1 MG-42. Below it it looks like that same single MG-42 was out of action.

1 MG 42 (and I doubt the validity of that 1 piece of paper)

ONE PIECE OF PAPER


24 November 1942 is the newspaper article(which is a tuesday). It says "Last tuesday (so probably 17th November) our Grenadiers made an assault... etc"

Great feat at the turning point of the battle (when the Germans got completely cut off)

So, if these documents are genuine, 1 MG-42 made it to Stalingrad (and broke down again shortly after)


On the other hand, you calling the newspaper document propaganda is most likely the case (iinstead of telling the German people they were going to lose)
Sounds exactly what Goebles would do...


Pwoblems?

 

[MeFirst]

No valid source and there is way more information to doubt that MG42 were at Stalingrad.

 

[ross]

This is all you need to make cartridges/bullets.
But I will bet someone will find a silly arguement why they didn't have this simple equipment. So please, bring it...

Very tiring discussions over here. I provide documents/evidence/proof and still, no go...
Same as the discussions about PTRD/PTRS, PzIV (G)F2 being the main German tank at Stalingrad, Mkb's, MG-42 (still only seen one little piece of evidence on 1 (one, uno, eins, une) piece of crap paper...

No, that is all you need to reload, which you can't exactly do when nobody is worried about policing up spent brass on a battlefield. Actual production of ammunition is a lot more involved, the only thing you can do with the setup pictured is to take premade new bullets, premade fresh primers, and fired cases to load up again with powder. Reloading is common practice amongst hunters and target shooters who value consistency in their ammunition (which is necessary for accuracy) or who want to experiment. It can also save money since you are only paying for bullets, primers and powder and just reusing your brass. I know this because I do it myself. I also volunteer at the museum attached to one of the largest small arms factories in the southern Hemisphere, so no, you please bring it.

To actually produce ammunition from scratch, you need to make the bullets as well - please go right ahead and point out which piece of equipment in that photo you believe to be capable of doing so.

Additionally, if you're trying to imply German bias here, you're very much barking up the wrong tree...

e: That inventory does not show ONE MG 42, it shows THREE operational (two heavy, one light) and a further unserviceable.

 

[AtheistIII]

(and I doubt the validity of that 1 piece of paper)

Me too, tbh.
There are hints, especially the Museum exhibit because i think they did their homework there, but you can't be sure of nothing here.
Just did a quick googleresearch and this is what i got.
edit:

So, if these documents are genuine, 1 MG-42 made it to Stalingrad (and broke down again shortly after)

Anyways, its about 4 MG-42 in one regiment, and afaik the 6th army had a bit more than one regiment.

On the other hand, you calling the newspaper document propaganda is most likely the case (iinstead of telling the German people they were going to lose)

of course its propaganda.
you won't find any articles of any german or soviet newspaper of that time that isn't, especially regarding the war.
And of course its exaggerated, but the core may be true.
The description of the impact on the enemy seems quite like the things i've heard and read from veterans about the MG42.

 

[MeFirst]

And unservicableable could also mean that the unit should have one but they probably had none. As you may know the situation around Stalingrad at 42 was not the best for the germans. Especially when you think about supplies and reinforcements.

 

[ross]

No, unserviceable means the unit has one which is current not serviceable (oddly enough). Politicians and the military brass might use terms incorrectly as euphemisms, but I would not expect a unit armourer or quartermaster in that situation to falsely list an MG 42 when they didn't have one in the first place.

Regardless, there are another three listed on the same document.

 

[Rrralphster]

-snip-

Lend-Lease Ammunition And Explosives​

The Allies supplied 317,000 tons of explosive materials including 22 million shells that was equal to just over half of the total Soviet production of approximately 600,000 tons. Additionally the Allies supplied 103,000 tons of toluene, the primary ingredient of TNT. In addition to explosives and ammunition, 991 million miscellaneous shell cartridges were also provided to speed up the manufacturing of ammunition.​

No, that is all you need to reload, which you can't exactly do when nobody is worried about policing up spent brass on a battlefield. Actual production of ammunition is a lot more involved, the only thing you can do with the setup pictured is to take premade new bullets, premade fresh primers, and fired cases to load up again with powder. Reloading is common practice amongst hunters and target shooters who value consistency in their ammunition (which is necessary for accuracy) or who want to experiment. It can also save money since you are only paying for bullets, primers and powder and just reusing your brass. I know this because I do it myself. I also volunteer at the museum attached to one of the largest small arms factories in the southern Hemisphere, so no, you please bring it.

To actually produce ammunition from scratch, you need to make the bullets as well - please go right ahead and point out which piece of equipment in that photo you believe to be capable of doing so.

Additionally, if you're trying to imply German bias here, you're very much barking up the wrong tree...

e: That inventory does not show ONE MG 42, it shows THREE operational (two heavy, one light) and a further unserviceable.

991.000.000 shell cartridges (see my own quote)
Casting lead isn't rocketscience b.t.w.
So there you have it, all the materials to make Cal .45 ACP...

3... I'll give you that(didn't see the schwere MG-42's in there). So 3 MG-42's. With 1 of those in maintenance.

Oh, and another thing I noticed, Germans captured 3 schwere MaschineGeweren.
Would that be a DShK? Can we have it? Or did they capture those while the Russians were doing some propoganda photography?

P.S. the bias I'm talking about is the general bias on the forum.
Russians = evil commie cavemen, fighting with their bare hands and no training
Germans = cool uniforms, great equipment and superduper training

 

[AtheistIII]

Its not unserviceablebut an "ausfall".
That means it either broke or was lost to the enemy.

 

[Grobut]

Please, I beg of you, show me undeniable proof of the MG-42 in Stalingrad. Some pictures or video action would be nice....

People have showed plenty of proof on this forum several times, pictures of MG-42's actually beeing in Stalingrad, aswell as readyness reports clearly showing them amongst the equipment.

What that proof also shows, however, is that they were very sparse, there were only a few there, which is why i woulden't want them to become a readilly avalible weapon in this game (but i fear that will happen anyway).

Complete list of Lend Lease Materials/Ordonance

[url]http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/documents/index.htm[/URL]

Look and you will find that the Russians received 137.729 Cal .45 submachineguns.
Please, tell me they used them only for propoganda purposes...

[url]http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/documents/files/Part_3A_pages_1-26.pdf[/URL]


12.997 Cal .45 Pistols (Type M1911 and M1911A1)
They only used these in propoganda pictures as well?

Having a lot of something does not mean you are using it, they also had hundreds of thousands of Berdan rifles, but that doesen't mean they were arming their troops with the damned things (and before anyone says it, yes, i am well aware that the Berdan was actually used in Stalingrad, but it was used by civilians, not soldiers).

The Thompsons were used, i have not and will never deny that, we know for a fact that partizans were given thease weapons and that they did make use of them, but RO has never been about partizans, and there are none featured in any of the games.

We also know that the navy were given some amount of them, but again, show me a sailor in Ro2..


I don't care if they had 999 trillion Thompsons, and so much .45 ACP ammo that they took to paving their roads with the stuff just to get rid of it all, no, that is irrelevant, if you can't show me evidence that they were used, by regular infantry, in Stalingrad, then they have no place beeing there, simple as that.

Just as speculative as what I am stating. But because it is Russian, no benefit of the doubt. If it was German we would, no make that, we should get it.

On this however, i can sadly agree, and that is the precise reason we've got crap like the MKb, MP-40/II and M-712 in Ro2, they were obviously wanking material for someone who wanted them in there.

But two wrongs don't make a right, and adding the Thompson, which was very much enferiour to the PPSh-41 in all but build quality, and for which i've seen no evidence at all that it was ever given to regular frontline infantry, is not going to solve that problem.


Removing the German WunderWaffe would solve it, however.

 

[ross]

991.000.000 shell cartridges (see my own quote)
Casting lead isn't rocketscience b.t.w.
So there you have it, all the materials to make Cal .45 ACP...

It is not as simple as 'casting lead'. Military rounds are copper jacketed and made to tighter standards than someone who casts their own lead at home. Then you also need the brass, which is easily collected at a range but not so easily collected during a battle. You also need the correct size and type of primers. On top of all that, you need the right burn rate for powder as well as the right amount.

This is another case of "why you should research before posting something and passing it off as fact". You have demonstrated absolutely zero understanding of the processes involved in producing functional, safe ammunition, let alone to military standards for consistency and reliability. There is an almighty big leap between "reloading cast lead bullets for hunting or shooting at a range" and "producing several hundreds of thousands of rounds of military ammunition for foreign weaponry".

I'm going to guess you don't shoot, or at the very least don't reload and shoot only factory ammo.

3... I'll give you that(didn't see the schwere MG-42's in there). So 3 MG-42's. With 1 of those in maintenance.

Oh, and another thing I noticed, Germans captured 3 schwere MaschineGeweren.
Would that be a DShK? Can we have it? Or did they capture those while the Russians were doing some propoganda photography?

Probably Maxims, which were much more widely used by infantry at the time. At any rate, the DShK would be of fairly dubious worth as an additional weapon, since due to engine constraints and small maps its awesome power and long reach will be fairly worthless.

P.S. the bias I'm talking about is the general bias on the forum.
Russians = evil commie cavemen, fighting with their bare hands and no training
Germans = cool uniforms, great equipment and superduper training

It might be the general bias here, but it's not mine. On the other hand, I can picture the Germans having a handful of MG 42s in Stalingrad, maybe enough to justify one or two maps having them as an HMG on a Lafette... I can't see the RKKA having enough M1928s to even be noticeable amongst the sea of PPSh-41s, assuming they did use them in Stalingrad.

e/ Naval Infantry were actually very heavily involved in Stalingrad, prominently so in the defence of the Grain elevator, for what it's worth

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

German bias ?

Gimme a break man...

In that case explain the 6x Russian scoped SVT40 and the AVT-40. Those are just as fantastical as the Mkb42(H).

No side has been favored, so stop ruining your own credibility by claiming such nonesense.

 

[Grobut]

German bias ?

Gimme a break man...

In that case explain the 6x Russian scoped SVT40 and the AVT-40. Those are just as fantastical as the Mkb42(H).

No side has been favored, so stop ruining your own credibility by claiming such nonesense.

That i have to disagree with..

On the Russian side we've got the AVT-40, 6x SVT scope, and the Nagant silencer.

On the German side we've got the MKb-42, MP-40/II, 4x G-41 scope, MG-34 saddlemags, MG-34 250 round belt, the M-712 pistol (or "SMG upgrade" if you prefer), a PTRS-41 that has extra penetration coded into it to better kill T-34's, Magnetic mines you can somehow throw at tanks, not to mention that the PzIV is coded to be better than the T-34 in every possible way other than speed. Am i forgetting anything? I think i may be..

And that's not mentioning the cosmetic upgrades, which only the Kar-98K and P-38 has, the Russians get none at all, instead, they get their PPSh-41 nerfed untill they unlock two tiers of "upgrades" for it.

Lets also not forget that the AVT-40 is garbage, in every way enferiour to the MKb-42, and that the Nagant silencer is likewise garbage, in every way enferiour to the M-712 unlock the German team gets.


Sorry, but it does look fairly lobsided to me, the German team gets all the goodies, the Russians get nothing of value (and what they do get they should have had from the bloody start, cough PPSh upgrades cough).

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Face/Palm....... it never stops.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

The problem aren't the weapon loadouts but how they arive for squads. Why not make them a lot more realistic by issuing quantity for each squad. Like russians would have a scarcer quantity of weapons on specific maps while germans would be well approvisionised with much manier weapons on other maps. And the roles can change. It would be cool and a lot more historical accurate.

Why not add quantity for the weapon loadouts like the rifles made in higher number would be more common on specific maps for the specific class. This would be a very estetic and realistic function for the game.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

That i have to disagree with..

On the Russian side we've got the AVT-40, 6x SVT scope, and the Nagant silencer.

On the German side we've got the MKb-42, MP-40/II, 4x G-41 scope, MG-34 saddlemags, MG-34 250 round belt, the M-712 pistol (or "SMG upgrade" if you prefer), a PTRS-41 that has extra penetration coded into it to better kill T-34's, Magnetic mines you can somehow throw at tanks, not to mention that the PzIV is coded to be better than the T-34 in every possible way other than speed. Am i forgetting anything? I think i may be..

And that's not mentioning the cosmetic upgrades, which only the Kar-98K and P-38 has, the Russians get none at all, instead, they get their PPSh-41 nerfed untill they unlock two tiers of "upgrades" for it.

Lets also not forget that the AVT-40 is garbage, in every way enferiour to the MKb-42, and that the Nagant silencer is likewise garbage, in every way enferiour to the M-712 unlock the German team gets.


Sorry, but it does look fairly lobsided to me, the German team gets all the goodies, the Russians get nothing of value (and what they do get they should have had from the bloody start, cough PPSh upgrades cough).

Oh come on! Lets take off the coloured glasses for a moment here:

1. Hurra! The Germans get an Mkb42 eventhough they shouldn't! Oh wait, even worse its just a massively underpowered version doing way too little damage compared to what it should, no doubt incorporated into the game to somehow make up for the PPSH bullet hose. The AVT40 (shouldn't be in either) on the other hand is a one shot one kill weapon with full auto capability for up close encounters, and the ability to mount a 4x scope.

2. Soviet PU scopes feature WAAY too wide a FOV compared to the real thing, whilst the German ZF4 which in reality had a wider FOV has an even lower FOV, heck its useless, but even worse it shouldn't even be there. That's another half assed attempt at balance for you.

3. Cosmetics: you forget about the 4x PEM scope Mosin WITH exterior 3D model, where'as there is no 3D model of the German Zielsechs.

As for the pistols, it's ridiculous to even argue it seeing as they are all useless for anything but close quarters, but I guess the single shot stopper TT33 needed a counter, the M712, which aint even useful, just an ammo guzzler.

As for the tanks:

How is the Pz.IV coded to be in anyway better than the T-34 ? One has a much better gun, just as the real thing, whilst the other has better armour, just as the real thing.

Where was the Pz.IV favored compared to the T-34 ?

In short: No side was favored, TWI screwed up with unrealistic additions to both sides and incorrect modelling of equipment from both sides.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Unus Offa, Unus Nex
Your right perfectly right the realism is screwed in Red orchestra 2 all that could be done to restore more from the realism of the battle would be maybe estetic than game mechanic. Like locating easyer your squad. Or like I said earlier making the weapon loadouts realistic. Because we have documentation about what weapons were used in specific battles and how many were issued so why not make it a feature. Like adding for specific battles a specific amount of rifles and pistol for each nation. Because the way it is now it isn't anything from realistic.

The russian svt scope is overpowered I killed on Fallen fighters 30 soldiers in classic just from staying in a corner and sniping the enemy. The svt 40 scoped is too overpowered in my opinion on the small maps we have now the bolt action rifles become utterly pointless because the majority will opt for the semi auto sniper rifle. But like I said by issuing a realistic loadout by the specific battle each weapon took part it would make the game a lot more balanced in the historical context of the game.