Important: Way too accurate aim for every soldier!

[DiedTrying]

Sway is fine, if you don't correct for it (move your mouse)

Without zooming/holding breath you can get very minimal sway just with mouse.

Also there is no sway at all for a good 1.5-2 seconds when you "hold breath" which turns the game into a hover mouse over target and click game.

While holding breath does help in ironsights in real life, it doesn't stop the sights from moving. Without wind and barrel fouling in game, a completely motionless rifle, for even 1 second, turns into a laser rifle.

I propose that it should be harder to correct for sway using your mouse (the sights swaying back and forth shows that you are trying to correct your aim, the mouse essentially gives you a third arm on the rifle) and to eliminate the temporary no sway when you zoom/hold breath, just make the sway minimal (lets say 15% of sway of the regular ADS).

I think this would get rid of the laser blasters, make people take time lining up their long shots (refer to my dieing 1 second popshot), and maintain realistic accuracy.

 

[<*>Nora The Martyr]

Sway is fine, if you don't correct for it (move your mouse)

Without zooming/holding breath you can get very minimal sway just with mouse.

Also there is no sway at all for a good 1.5-2 seconds when you "hold breath" which turns the game into a hover mouse over target and click game.

While holding breath does help in ironsights in real life, it doesn't stop the sights from moving. Without wind and barrel fouling in game, a completely motionless rifle, for even 1 second, turns into a laser rifle.

I propose that it should be harder to correct for sway using your mouse (the sights swaying back and forth shows that you are trying to correct your aim, the mouse essentially gives you a third arm on the rifle) and to eliminate the temporary no sway when you zoom/hold breath, just make the sway minimal (lets say 15% of sway of the regular ADS).

I think this would get rid of the laser blasters, make people take time lining up their long shots (refer to my dieing 1 second popshot), and maintain realistic accuracy.

If TWI went this route- The firefights and distance kills would be much more satisfying!

Whenever I feel a firefight start up, half the participants die in 5 seconds.

 

[Animal_Mother]

Yeah, I wanna barely get my head down in time as a burst of MG fire slams into/over the sandbags I'm covering behind & feel like I've gotten out of something. Extended firefights would be SO cool.

 

[Unorthadox]

This thread still exists?

I am slightly disappoint.

 

[Josef Nader]

This thread still exists?

I am slightly disappoint.

As long as this thread keeps rising from the grave, I'm gonna be here to keep smashing it back down again.

Yeah, I wanna barely get my head down in time as a burst of MG fire slams into/over the sandbags I'm covering behind & feel like I've gotten out of something. Extended firefights would be SO cool.

Then DUCK faster, numbnuts. And don't pop up in the same spot every time. And don't let the MG'er see you. And keep moving while concealed. And get some teammates to lay down some covering fire on the MG'er.

In other words, don't rely on stupid arcadey things like bullet spread or exaggerated weapon sway to accommodate your unrealistic tactics and behaviors.

 

[Inuki]

As long as this thread keeps rising from the grave, I'm gonna be here to keep smashing it back down again.



Then DUCK faster, numbnuts. And don't pop up in the same spot every time. And don't let the MG'er see you. And keep moving while concealed. And get some teammates to lay down some covering fire on the MG'er.

In other words, don't rely on stupid arcadey things like bullet spread or exaggerated weapon sway to accommodate your unrealistic tactics and behaviors.

Don't keep thrusting it in our faces that this game is meant to be "realistic" because i HIGHLY DOUBT that;

1) Realism means that two sides would agree to play 32vs32
2) Realism would be played on TERRITORY - the most and may as well be only mode in RO2 at the moment
3) Realistic is where you can kill a guy 200 meters away after sprinting for 20 seconds then being shot in your arm


Secondly,

WEAPON SWAY IS REALISTIC!

In real life your trying to hold a gun still with your hands. In a game, Your trying to do that with a mouse. As your aim moves around your using your mouse to counter-act the weapon sway. Thus, the better you are at that the more still your weapon becomes. IE - The better rifleman you become.

 

[Animal_Mother]

As long as this thread keeps rising from the grave, I'm gonna be here to keep smashing it back down again.



Then DUCK faster, numbnuts. And don't pop up in the same spot every time. And don't let the MG'er see you. And keep moving while concealed. And get some teammates to lay down some covering fire on the MG'er.

In other words, don't rely on stupid arcadey things like bullet spread or exaggerated weapon sway to accommodate your unrealistic tactics and behaviors.

Don't even call me numbnuts, idiot.

Fire & maneuver is necessary in real combat (and never necessary in bs like this) because real soldiers can't consistently hit you between the eyes at whatever range pleases them. Targets must be pinned in place/suppressed & flanked by a second element which will be closer & have a better LOS to the target. As for the MG putting down suppressing fire, won't be happening for long because some moron with a bolt & "skill" (or as I call it, being unrealistically accommodated by the game) will put one in his head from 150 meters too.

OK, post whatever you want; I've said what I needed to say, wasted on you as it is, and therefore won't be returning to this thread to read it. Have a nice day

 

[DiedTrying]

As long as this thread keeps rising from the grave, I'm gonna be here to keep smashing it back down again.



Then DUCK faster, numbnuts. And don't pop up in the same spot every time. And don't let the MG'er see you. And keep moving while concealed. And get some teammates to lay down some covering fire on the MG'er.

In other words, don't rely on stupid arcadey things like bullet spread or exaggerated weapon sway to accommodate your unrealistic tactics and behaviors.

What's with the trolling and aggressive attitude?

here's a thought, read my post on the previous page, hell read both of them. Then let's discuss the points I raise instead of you cherry picking specific comments from posters in order to insult and act like an infallible douche.

But if you wish to continue with this "I'm right, you are wrong" adolescent attitude, I'll be more than happy to ignore you and move on.

 

[Josef Nader]

What's with the trolling and aggressive attitude?

here's a thought, read my post on the previous page, hell read both of them. Then let's discuss the points I raise instead of you cherry picking specific comments from posters in order to insult and act like an infallible douche.

But if you wish to continue with this "I'm right, you are wrong" adolescent attitude, I'll be more than happy to ignore you and move on.

Like I said mate, I'm tired of rehashing these same arguments a hundred times over. I've dumped massive textwalls into the previous pages only to have them totally ignored, and folks here are re-hashing the same tired old idea time and time again. It's just not worth it.

But if you insist:

Here's a must read story

I just played Commissars house as Russian with AVT.

I moved up on left where the water treatment is (thats the destroyed building right?)

I go around the left corner and BAM, sniped. I'm bleeding/blacking out! I can't move and I'm rocking back and forth.

"But hey, what's that?!" I say. It appeared to be the head of a sniper hiding behind a wall. So I pull up my ironsights, get a bead on the head, and squeeze the trigger.

BAM! HEADSHOT! 100 phucking meters....while I was less than .5 seconds from me dieing from my traumatic neck wound....while standing....after sprinting....while rocking back and forth (ya'll have seen this movement)....while hardly even seeing my screen.

I'm not even going to bother hypothesizing about what the hell just happened. I'll leave that to you all.

Okay? You got a million in one headshot that 99% of folks would have missed, and that you were lucky to pull off. This is what we call anecdotal evidence, and it means absolutely nothing.

Besides, it's not the game's fault that the other guy didn't have the good sense to duck after he shot at you just in case he missed.

Sway is fine, if you don't correct for it (move your mouse)

Without zooming/holding breath you can get very minimal sway just with mouse.

Also there is no sway at all for a good 1.5-2 seconds when you "hold breath" which turns the game into a hover mouse over target and click game.

While holding breath does help in ironsights in real life, it doesn't stop the sights from moving. Without wind and barrel fouling in game, a completely motionless rifle, for even 1 second, turns into a laser rifle.

I propose that it should be harder to correct for sway using your mouse (the sights swaying back and forth shows that you are trying to correct your aim, the mouse essentially gives you a third arm on the rifle) and to eliminate the temporary no sway when you zoom/hold breath, just make the sway minimal (lets say 15% of sway of the regular ADS).

I think this would get rid of the laser blasters, make people take time lining up their long shots (refer to my dieing 1 second popshot), and maintain realistic accuracy.

You'd be surprised how steady you can get with proper breath control, mate, especially if you've shot for a while. The shift-zoom breath control fairly accurately depicts how breath control works in real life. You exhale, and the rifle becomes very steady for a few seconds before you start overcompensating. Then you take a deep breath in, hold it for a second, and let it out slowly. You're back to a stable firing platform. Rinse and repeat. This is the kind of basic technique that is drilled into soldiers from the first day they're handed a rifle, and it becomes second nature to them during training.

I'm still totally against exaggerating the sway, and I offer a counter proposal. When you ADS, the rifle is put at a random location off-center within a certain radius of the center. This keeps people from snapping long-range head-shots while still allowing them to snap shoot from 50m.

And again, as I've hammered on time and time and time and time again during the course of this discussion, you don't change the game mechanics to make up for player skill. You don't screw up a nicely realistic depiction of gun mechanics just because your players don't know how to use cover properly, or how to cross open areas without drawing fire, or how to work together to defend against lone snipers. Give the playerbase time to figure these things out, and all this nonsense isn't a problem anymore.

 

[DiedTrying]

Like I said mate, I'm tired of rehashing these same arguments a hundred times over. I've dumped massive textwalls into the previous pages only to have them totally ignored, and folks here are re-hashing the same tired old idea time and time again. It's just not worth it.

Then why come back to the thread to stir things up in a derogatory manner? If you are tired of the thread, don't come back. That's what I do.

But if you insist:



Okay? You got a million in one headshot that 99% of folks would have missed, and that you were lucky to pull off. This is what we call anecdotal evidence, and it means absolutely nothing.

Besides, it's not the game's fault that the other guy didn't have the good sense to duck after he shot at you just in case he missed.

I know what anecdotes are. The point you are missing is the complete lack of effects and realism. It wasn't really a hard shot at all. The only problem was spotting the player. I went to ADS + zoom, I pointed and clicked. I could have made that shot 75% of the time as long as I don't freak out about bleeding out. It was exactly the same shooting mechanics as I would have had, had I not been shot in the throat. To be fair, this point has more to do with the fact that being shot/dieing has no effect than it does about gun play.

You'd be surprised how steady you can get with proper breath control, mate, especially if you've shot for a while. The shift-zoom breath control fairly accurately depicts how breath control works in real life. You exhale, and the rifle becomes very steady for a few seconds before you start overcompensating. Then you take a deep breath in, hold it for a second, and let it out slowly. You're back to a stable firing platform. Rinse and repeat. This is the kind of basic technique that is drilled into soldiers from the first day they're handed a rifle, and it becomes second nature to them during training.

Bud, I've been firing rifles all my life and had my heart accelerate many times as I've taken aim at large whitetail bucks; holding your breath will not make the sights stop moving completely. This is the point I made. In game, the sights will completely stop moving for ~1+ second. Plenty enough time for any healthy individual to click the mouse (takes about .02-.03 for avg person to click mouse, I've seen quasi studies on this in my psychology classes) I think if this was taken out, we'd see a significant drop in 1 shot kills.

I'm still totally against exaggerating the sway, and I offer a counter proposal. When you ADS, the rifle is put at a random location off-center within a certain radius of the center. This keeps people from snapping long-range head-shots while still allowing them to snap shoot from 50m.

I was never proposing to exaggerate sway. Only that the current sway be harder to manipulate. Currently without moving mouse, you get realistic sway. This represents you trying to hold your sights on target. What the mouse does is allow you to unrealistically control the sway to inhuman levels. There is no way for me in real life to aim with my k98 and then correct the sway even moreso without taking slow breaths.

But yes, your idea is good. The problem with my idea of restricting mouse control over sway is that it would make it much more difficult to swing your rifle onto a different target.

And again, as I've hammered on time and time and time and time again during the course of this discussion, you don't change the game mechanics to make up for player skill. You don't screw up a nicely realistic depiction of gun mechanics just because your players don't know how to use cover properly, or how to cross open areas without drawing fire, or how to work together to defend against lone snipers. Give the playerbase time to figure these things out, and all this nonsense isn't a problem anymore.

"gun mechanics" are realistic and fine; but aiming mechanics have flaws. As I stated earlier on in this thread, in game I can nail an unmoving target at 150m+ 90% of the time. I'm a good shot in real life, hitting the same sized target at that range, I'd be lucky to get 60%. Also I think gun support on objects is a bit simplistic, but it would be too complex for the game to fix.

btw, I +1 you for humoring my request. (can't vote anymore today, will do it later)

 

[Josef Nader]

Alright, I see what you're saying.

My question is this. What exactly is wrong with one-shot kills? Not damage wise, but being able to shoot an exposed, still target from a distance. Isn't that the other player's fault for not knowing how to take cover? Why punish the shooter for perceived unfairness or ease? Why not make everyone learn actual tactics used by actual soldiers to try and cross the battlefield, and stop letting them rely on unrealistic tactics?

By decreasing weapon accuracy, you make it easier for people to sprint across open ground 150m from an enemy position without a care in the world. Right now, I'll kill them for their stupidity. Make the shooting mechanics harder, and suddenly they can do it with impudence. It strikes me that the reason people want the overall accuracy to go down is because they are afraid of the enemy riflemen. This is -good-. You should be afraid to cross open ground, and you should feel exposed when you aren't in a solid position. You should want to find good cover as quickly as possible, and the only way to do this is to make gunplay bloody lethal.

I don't want the other players to feel comfortable when running across the open ground. I don't want them to be okay with popping out of the same spot they took cover in to shoot back at me. I don't want them to be able to zig-zag across open ground and not be afraid of getting shot because I can't control my rifle.

If a player wants increased survivability in firefights, they should learn how to position themselves, how to take advantage of cover, and how to move through the terrain without being seen. As you pointed out with your story, you can't shoot what you can't see (you saw the sniper, you shot him). I'm a very effective player because I -cannot be seen-. I've taught myself how to move through the environment and get into a position that makes it very hard for enemy players to spot me before I spot them, and even harder to shoot back. I've been in plenty of drawn out firefights using tactics like this, where a decent guy on the other team will catch wise and start plinking shots back at me. Rather than sit there like a pillock and try and sniper duel, I'll reposition and try to get a bead on him. We'll carry on like this for minutes at a time, and on clan matches the entire team is doing this. It works brilliantly, and we have excellent firefights without relying on the game mechanics to keep our behinds alive.

If you're using these tactics and racking up kills, it's not your fault that the other players suck and you shouldn't be punished for it. If you're dying left and right because you keep getting sniped, don't come to the forums and *****, learn how to play the game properly.

This is the big reason I really hate this thread, and am tired of discussing it. Nobody wants to blame the players. Everyone instantly blames the game. If you play the game right, there's nothing wrong with it. Don't screw up the game because people insist on playing wrong.

 

[Animal_Mother]

DT-To tell the truth I really don't have the patience to argue with people like Josef...think I lost that some 5 years ago, but I wish you luck & hope the devs will pay attention to what you have to say.

Suffice to say I feel that cover shouldn't be rendered completely ineffective (as it now is) just because you happen to stick your head out for a second. If this were the case then fire & maneuver tactics wouldn't be necessary in real combat.

 

[DiedTrying]

Nothing wrong with one shot kills, they would still be very much possible with my recommendations if you have the skill to properly compensate for sway. They would also be much more rewarding.

I'd like to point out that you are against taking away player skill, but you must realize that the current aiming system in game does exactly that.

Zoom+no sway (for a small amount of time) and excessively easy to control sway makes it so any player can shoot like snipers.

 

[Josef Nader]

Nothing wrong with one shot kills, they would still be very much possible with my recommendations if you have the skill to properly compensate for sway. They would also be much more rewarding.

I'd like to point out that you are against taking away player skill, but you must realize that the current aiming system in game does exactly that.

Zoom+no sway (for a small amount of time) and excessively easy to control sway makes it so any player can shoot like snipers.

Again, you're missing my point. Shooting shouldn't be a complex skill for players to master. If anyone can shoot well without having to master a challenging weapon handling system, than the real test of player skill becomes survivability and tactical prowess. Every player is a serious threat to your life, and learning how to circumvent their advantages and behave tactically becomes the learning curve, not having to learn how to shoot straight.

 

[Josef Nader]

DT-To tell the truth I really don't have the patience to argue with people like Josef...think I lost that some 5 years ago, but I wish you luck & hope the devs will pay attention to what you have to say.

Suffice to say I feel that cover shouldn't be rendered completely ineffective (as it now is) just because you happen to stick your head out for a second. If this were the case then fire & maneuver tactics wouldn't be necessary in real combat.

And this is why I was acting like a dick above. Chuckleheads like this totally ignore everything I have to say and demand that the game be changed to meet their expectations rather than admit that the problem lies with the playerbase.

It's YOUR fault that you keep getting killed because of your bad tactics. The game should not be change to permit your unrealistic play style.

 

[DiedTrying]

Again, you're missing my point. Shooting shouldn't be a complex skill for players to master. If anyone can shoot well without having to master a challenging weapon handling system, than the real test of player skill becomes survivability and tactical prowess. Every player is a serious threat to your life, and learning how to circumvent their advantages and behave tactically becomes the learning curve, not having to learn how to shoot straight.

Well, in RO1 where some claim aiming AND shooting was too difficult, I still felt very vulnerable, so saying RO2 will become easy and tacticless if players can't shoot properly isn't a rock solid theory. Ro1 suggests that it would be fine, but who knows.

Also removing no sway while holding breath isn't that big of a game changer that people would have to "learn how to shoot straight".

It would just make hitting unmoving targets, lets say, 25% harder, which IMO would put it at realistic levels without making it look like a blatant nerf (cone fire etc...). We get rid of 1 very tiny unrealistic feature, and realistic shooting improves slightly.

Remember, all it is is removing 1.5 seconds of absolutely no sway. If people can hit targets while gun is swaying without holding shift/hold breath, they can hit targets while gun is swaying (swaying less even) while holding shift/hold breath.

 

[Josef Nader]

Well, in RO1 where some claim aiming AND shooting was too difficult, I still felt very vulnerable, so saying RO2 will become easy and tacticless if players can't shoot properly isn't a rock solid theory. Ro1 suggests that it would be fine, but who knows.

Also removing no sway while holding breath isn't that big of a game changer that people would have to "learn how to shoot straight".

It would just make hitting unmoving targets, lets say, 25% harder, which IMO would put it at realistic levels without making it look like a blatant nerf (cone fire etc...). We get rid of 1 very tiny unrealistic feature, and realistic shooting improves slightly.

Remember, all it is is removing 1.5 seconds of absolutely no sway. If people can hit targets while gun is swaying without holding shift/hold breath, they can hit targets while gun is swaying (swaying less even) while holding shift/hold breath.

But why is this a good thing? Why should it be harder to hit an unmoving target? Why is this preferable to your target learning how to properly utilize cover and concealment? Why is it so important that the player needs to work harder to aim, even if it's only a little bit (25% is not a little bit, by the way)?

Why shouldn't we force players to learn how to use cover properly? What's wrong with punishing players for being predictable, or trying to out-snipe a player who already has a bead on them? Why shouldn't we punish players who are too slow to draw a bead on an exposed target, and who haven't concealed themselves properly, so they get killed by the target? I just don't understand why we should tweak game mechanics towards results like this. Explain it to me.

In RO1, you had to learn how to shoot before you were an effective player, and you could get away with unrealistic tactics against people who hadn't mastered the shooting. In RO2, you can get away with easy kills against players who don't understand how to behave tactically. If they refuse to learn from their mistakes, you continue to punish them. I don't want to be hamstrung by the game mechanics. My performance should hinge on my skill at assessing the situation and reacting accordingly, not muscle memory.

 

[DiedTrying]

None of what you are ranting about has anything to do with the topic of this thread.

What has "behaving tactically", "using cover" "punishing players" have anything to do with trying to achieve realistic accuracy levels within the game?

I can barely make heads or tails of your drama queen exaggerations. I tried to play nice, but you keep on ranting off topic without addressing relevant info.

I have no idea how you even got onto this psychosis about punishing players for not using cover or being tactical or learning from mistakes. It's like you are making the argument that guns should be super accurate laser blasters, IN ORDER to force people to cower behind every rock.

That's not what this thread is about. Removing no sway isn't going to turn RO2 into quake. Discussion on player behavior is completely off topic and encompasses a plethora of variables you aren't calculating. I graduated from a Behavior Analysis psychology program, I know a thing or two about the subject and know that you trying to tie accuracy and player behavior together is incredibly flimsy. *

Why don't we take it a step further and remove recoil. This would make guns super deadly; people would get punished all the time if they don't properly utilize cover. Players would have to develop "realistic" tactics in order to survive...

btw, what were these "unrealistic tactics" in RO1 that stemmed from poor accuracy of the opponent? I'd like to hear.

---
* mostly inflammatory, don't bother responding.

 

[DiedTrying]

Fact: There is a period when you zoom/hold breath where your sights are completely motionless. This probably accounts for a large number of the long range one shot kills that are so frustrating.

Fact: This feature is completely unrealistic and should be removed.

Right there is your bread and butter that addresses the unrealistically high accuracy rate on motionless targets in game.

This is what should be discussed. Player behavior will not change. You may miss a kill here and there when you try to punish someone for not moving, that's it.

on a 64 person server, that may add up to a total of 30-50 missed kills per match. Nothing game breaking and nothing that you can't blame on yourself for not lining up the shot better. It would not be much different than taking a shot when you are unzoomed.

 

[WiFiDi]

i think a fix would be to make it when your tired the effects of this drastically increase instead of just minor thing. more sway etc...

also make there a motion in the weapon when you hold your breath so its not super sniper.