Ideas for the new (and old) weapons!

[Aze]

The new weapons are all shiny and pretty, but they need rebalancing and all that, along with some of the already existing weapons (and perks). Let's get right to it (and this is how my changes would look like):

FIREBUG:
* Mag and ammo bonus down to 50% at level 6 (down from 60%)(and appropriately rescaled for the lower levels)(and also properly written in the perk tooltip to be ammo AND magsize)
* All burn damage (the damage over time) is now dealt over only 8 seconds, rather than over 10 seconds. This means a pure dps-increase (all damage-ticks are done every 0,8 seconds rather than every 1,0 seconds)
* Flamethrower total fuel up to 500 (up from 400)
* Flamethrower cost increased to 1000 (up from 750)
* Flamethrower now belong to keyslot 4 again (instead of the current 3)
* Husk Cannon cost reduced to 2500 (down from 4000)
* Husk Cannon ammo up to 200 (up from 150)
* Husk Cannon minimum and max aoe increased a little bit (for both impact and ignition)
* Husk Cannon charge-up time reduced (and perhaps uses up to max only 5 ammo at max charge, instead of 10? If put to max 5, uncharged shots needs to be rescaled in damage and area a bit, obviously)
* Husk Cannon uncharged initial damaged increased a bit (Current is just 1? So, like 45 instead?)
* Husk Cannon max initial damage reduced to something between 550 and 600 (down from 750)
* Husk Cannon initial damage both levels and benefits from the Firebug perk (meaning Husk Cannon's max initial damage would be 880 to 960, depending on the base damage given)
* Husk Cannon secondary fire could be a "cancel charge"-button perhaps? (Alternative idea would be to have secondary fire shoot a fast, short, penetrating flamewave which uses 5 energy and deals medium damage etc, and then also given to the Husk specimen itself, so the Husk has a reason to always be trying to walk closer to the players)
* New perk bonus: From level 0 to 6, burning targets suffer additional damage from other sources. 0% to 6%, directly related to current perk level.
* Level 5 Firebug spawns with Mac10
* Level 6 Firebug spawns with Flamethrower

DEMOLITIONS:
* "New" perk bonus (aka, no longer hidden): Rockets and launcher grenades gets a discount. Up to 30% at level 6. What's new about this bonus though is that (imo) handgrenades should also benefit from this discount!
* The Handgrenade (and rocket) amount bonus change from % bonus to an absolute bonus (And fix the display to also say that it benefits for the LAW...). From +1 up to +7 extra ammo, directly related to perk level. This means, max 12 handgrenades at level 6, up from 11.
* LAW base rocket amount increased to 18 (up from 10), which equals 25 rockets at level 6 (due to the changed ammobonus).
* LAW ammo cost reduced to 25 per rocket (down from 30)
* LAW weight decreased to 12 (down from 13)
* LAW damage increased to 980 (up from 950)
* M4+M203 weight increased to 7 (up from 6)
* M4+M203 cost reduced to 1750 (down from 3500)
* M4+M203 bullets' mag (both this and the M4 version) increased to 32 (up from 30)
* M4+M203 bullets total ammo increased to 320 (up from 300)
* M4+M203 grenades base amount lowered to 8 (down from 12)
* M4+M203 also benefit from the handgrenade+rocket amount bonus (equals up to 15 grenades at level 6)(perk tooltip also edited to show that the M203 benefits from it ofc)
* M4+M203 bullet damage (both this and the M4 version) increased to 37 (up from 35)
* M4+M203 no longer autoreloads the nade launcher after use, you now have to click the secondary fire again to reload it
* M79 discount is equal to the Pipebomb discount now instead (cheaper for lower level players)
* Level 5 Demolitions spawn with 7 additional Handgrenades (which means a total of 10)
* Level 6 Demolitions spawn with only M79

COMMANDO:
* Damage bonus up to 60% at level 6 (up from 50%)
* Bullpup weight down to 5 (down from 6)
* M4 magsize (both this and the M4+M203 version) up to 32 (up from 30)
* M4 total ammo down to 352 (down from 400)
* M4 damage (both this and the M4+M203 version) increased to 37 (up from 35)
* M4 base reload speed (both this and the M4+M203's rifle-part)) is now a tad faster
* Commando also gets discount on M4+M203 (the weapon could have a split perksymbol, so it is notified that it is for both Commando and Demolitions)
* Bullets from M4+M203 levels and benefits from all Commando bonuses. Damage, mag, ammo and everything. The grenades get no bonuses (except reload speed, since that's a general bonus for the Commando).
* AK47 damage increased to 52 (up from 45)
* AK47 cost increased to 1250 (up from 1000)
* SCAR magsize up to 24 (up from 20)
* SCAR total ammo down to 288 (down from 300)
* SCAR penetrates a target (50% damage on the 2nd target)
* SCAR weight up to 7
* Level 6 Commando spawns with M4

(Note: All the M4+M203 changes would make them more balanced depending on which perk uses them. Demolitions would get more and stronger grenades, Commando would get more and stronger bullets)

SHARPSHOOTER:
* "New" perk bonus (aka, no longer hidden): Xbow gets ammo discount. Up to 40% at level 6
* "New" perk bonus (aka, no longer hidden): LAR gets an increased rate of fire. Up to 60% at level 6
* Xbow price increased to 1500 (up from 800)
* Xbow now benefits from discount
* Xbow bolt cost reduced to 15 per bolt (down from 20)
* LAR price increased to 400
* LAR benefits from discount
* The reload bonuses is now split in 2:
1) LAR and M14 has the same 60% (at level 6) reload bonus as before
2) All pistols (single and dual) and the Xbow now has only 30% reload bonus. Note: The Xbow now ACTUALLY benefits from this bonus, however, the Xbow is also a tad slower to reload offperk, coming up with pretty much the same reload speed in the end at level 6.
* 44 Magnum cost reduced to 350 (down from 450) per gun.
* Single 44 Magnum ammo reduced to 108 (down from 128)
* Dual 44 Magnum ammo increased to 216 (up from 128)
* 44 Magnum (single as dual) now only deals 90 damage (down from 105)
* 44 Magnum (single as dual) is now after the Handcannon in the pistol list (when you press 2)
* Single 9mm ammo reduced to 165 (down from 240)
* Dual 9mm ammo increased to 330 (up from 240)
* Dual 9mm weight reduced to 2 (down from 4)
* Single Handcannon ammo reduced to 88 (down from 96)
* Single Handcannon weight reduced to 3 (down from 4)
* Dual Handcannon ammo increased to 176 (up from 96)
* Dual Handcannon weight increased to 6 (or 5?)(up from 4)
* M14 headshotmultiplier increased to 2,3x (up from 2,25x)
* Level 6 Sharpshooter spawns with Dual Handcannon (instead of the Xbow)

MEDIC:
* Medic weapon discount changed to 90% at level 6 (from previous 97% and current 87%)(and appropriately rescaled for the lower levels)
* MP7 cost reduced to 1500 (down from 3000)
* MP7 now penetrates a target (50% damage on 2nd target)
* MP7 bulletspread slightly reduced
* MP7 only gets 100 bullets when bought (combined with the new discount, to eliminate the "sell and repurchase" issue)
* MP7 mag cost reduced to 5

 

[C_Gibby]

I don't see why the idea has to be so damn specific. I mean, just a general idea like "reduction" or "increase" or things to that effect would be better to actually talk about. Not many people are willing to pull apart a list of numbers to make a discussion. It looks more like a demand than a suggestion for a general idea.

And you seem so sure about all this. Have you been making mutators to test all these things out?

Personally, I think that this new pile of weapons could do with bringing out the old KF beta if we hit any genuine balancing issues further down the road.

 

[Blockbot]

lol I get the feeling this is a demand thread but... HEY why lower shotty perk total weight and change all the shotty weight down? sounds just change 2 change if you ask me...

 

[Aze]

I don't see why the idea has to be so damn specific. I mean, just a general idea like "reduction" or "increase" or things to that effect would be better to actually talk about. Not many people are willing to pull apart a list of numbers to make a discussion. It looks more like a demand than a suggestion for a general idea.

And you seem so sure about all this. Have you been making mutators to test all these things out?

Personally, I think that this new pile of weapons could do with bringing out the old KF beta if we hit any genuine balancing issues further down the road.

I know you are a little tired of my ideas and all that, and i understand that and respect that. I AM a handful of annoyance, no denying that
To respond to your questions:

The specifics are for a few reasons. I have an excel file where i write down every weapon, with all kinds of details on them. I am very, very often thinking and readjusting in the file to try to get a nice balance on each weapon. Not only am i doing it for balance, but in some cases also for some more realism, in some rare cases to "feel" good. I also do it to make sure no weapon is ever useless. No weapon should never entirely replace another one. That's what has been so unique (and lovely!) about Killing Floor for such a long time. Now look at some weapons: The MP5M pretty much replaces the MP7, the M4 replaces he Bullpup, the Claymore replaces the Fire Axe (maybe not if the Claymore's weight wasn't bugged). That's a little sad imo.

You wanna know something, well, i dunno... sad? Or maybe embarrasing? I think about all these weapon stats of all the weapons almost ALL THE TIME. I guess it's even an obsession if you will (I DO have a minor case of OCD, so, once i take a liking to something, i REALLY take a liking to it.)

And believe me, it is by no means a demand. It is purely a suggestion. The thoroughness and specifics is because i have calculated pretty much everything here (Total potential damage per weight ratio, total damage to cost ratio, DPS etc) and try to cover every aspect of a weapon so it isn't left out in the cold (I'm looking at you poor Dual 9mm ).
If there is something you dislike from the lists, please tell me so, and im more than willing to discuss it, both with words and calculations.

And while you maybe feel it's hard (what do i know?), there shouldn't really be a problem discussing numbers. At least, i personally think that it could in most cases be more easily done than just "vague explanations". It's more tangible to discuss imo.

Once again, no, i have not done any mutators with all these things. However, i have calculated a crapload with the numbers. Some numbers i am way 100% flexible with, some i am a bit more insisting on (although remember, still, i do not in any way demand it. I mean, how could I? It's not even my game! xD)

And one important thing: Not all these suggestions are my own ideas. Not at all! I am quite the eclectic person, looking through others' ideas and thoughts, and have them in mind. THEN, i take that in regard and try to fit that in with calculations.
One of those things was the 44 Magnum, which you said you really liked at a weight of 2 (you are not the only one, but you are one the main inspirations to why i kept it at that weight, fyi!) and then i tried to make it work around that weight ^^

I would love for the old beta gang to get a go on all the weapons in the future. And this time, im not gonna be so silent like i was last time

lol I get the feeling this is a demand thread but... HEY why lower shotty perk total weight and change all the shotty weight down? sounds just change 2 change if you ask me...

Still not a demand thread I'm sorry it comes of like that. I'm just a little tired of discussing with lengthy posts all the time and go straight to the point instead (i like dem numbaz ^^). I also think it's easier to read lists, rather than poetry (no offense to those who like poetry!)

And good question about the Shotguns and weight change! I actually suggested this long time ago, but all i got was Sammers flaming and trolling me -.- The reason i suggested this was:
1) To make sure the Support Specialist can't carry an absurd amount of lowweight weapon (Consider the IJC pack with its Mk23, plus all the new lightweight weapons and the Support can carry way too many weapons. It's getting a little silly). While he still could with my suggestion, it will at least be toned down a notch.
2) The Support perk is a little weird to level. Not until level 3 (at least before the Combat Shotgun was added) could you carry 2 Shotguns together. With this change, you can carry 2 Shotguns together already at level 1!
After the update though you can carry the Shotgun, the Combat Shotgun and the M32 all together. You don't think that's a little overpowered?
With these suggestions, you can carry 2 Shotguns together but not have more than max 5 weight left, for a sidearm of choice. It's more balanced.
3) To make the Shotguns a little bit more attainable offperk. Most weapons are used offperk, but the Shotguns are almost left out in that regard.

 

[C_Gibby]

I think you're missing my point, I'm saying that it's just silly to shoot for the exact percentages and stuff in a huge list. It's better to just discuss the general idea of "should we decrease X and increase Y?" and stuff like that. We can also see about the changes it brings, rather than what you did, which was just listing the changes with no reasoning behind them, just the changes as they are.

I mean, for example, why exactly do we need to change the MP7 by giving it only 100 ammo when bought? That kinda thing. While it may be well-presented as a changelog, there's nothing to discuss, yet FAAAAR too many questions to ask.

 

[Aze]

I think you're missing my point, I'm saying that it's just silly to shoot for the exact percentages and stuff in a huge list. It's better to just discuss the general idea of "should we decrease X and increase Y?" and stuff like that. We can also see about the changes it brings, rather than what you did, which was just listing the changes with no reasoning behind them, just the changes as they are.

Like i said, i was a little tired of always having to explain myself about everything. A lot of these changes just directly makes sense to me. Debatting about it with vague terms felt way too lengthy to do in one go. Besides, SOMEONE has to be a little bit more specific or else we will never really come to a conclusion will we?

And there are reasonings behind them, but if i put them all down as well, the thread would be horrendously long and would definitely not be read at all.
It's a shame really, i just... i dunno... i "see" things, how to make them work, make sense and so on. No one seems to understand me (except my girlfriend )

So, i'd rather put up a list with numerical stuff and then get questions around them, if something is unclear or if someone wants to ask the simple question "why did you do X?"

I mean, for example, why exactly do we need to change the MP7 by giving it only 100 ammo when bought? That kinda thing. While it may be well-presented as a changelog, there's nothing to discuss, yet FAAAAR too many questions to ask.

The MP7 question here: I changed that to 100 ammo when it was bought in conjunction with my proposed new discount to do what exactly? Well, i eliminated the "sell and repurchase weapon is cheaper than just buying the ammo" issue, without the need to do what TWI did: Horribly nerf the discount. My suggestion is just simply more consistant with the rest of the game. No other weapon i can think of starts with full ammo (I think the MP5M does too though, but it'd be common sense to do a similar change to that weapon ofc)
See, that was a good question

And if there is LOADSA QUESTIONS, take your time and write them down. I'm more than glad to answer them all ^^
And if you don't wanna do that, i understand. But can you really blame me for not writing ALL the reasonings behind the changes considering how long it is already, rather than get questions for changes instead and directly answer the things that people might have an issue with? I might edit them in some day later though, but im too tired to do that atm. I already spend too much time with this game, be it playing it or writing about it on forums or on excel