I think it's time we change how we deal with FP/SC (mainly FP)

[taiiat]

Has anyone tried demolitionist effectiveness vs FPs since the class's rework? That's the defacto FP killing class - or at least it used to be.

And why should the M14 be able to take out a FP with any amount of effectiveness? Because it's a T3? So what? I never felt like that was the intended function of the weapon. Railgun feels like it should be the big zed killer. Yes the M14 could use a damage boost, and I think it's good that the stun effect got reduced, but I don't want to see it turn into a FP-killer that can compete with the railgun. That would feel wrong to me.

Demo is excellent against Fleshpounds, which ofcourse it is since you get XP specifically for Killing Fleshpounds.
also still does pretty alright against Scrakes with the direct hit Skill and the large Multiplier for RPG impact.

ofcourse the M14 shouldn't compete with a Spike Damage Weapon, as it is not. i don't particularly see why it should be 'basically useless' as you seem to be suggesting, that would be no good either.

Right now we're right back to the same argument from the past of camp vs kite playstyles. With teleportation reduced, both styles are playable now right? Why not do the same with the game itself? Is it not arguable that Killing Floor is meant to be a game where people can have fun just shooting incoming ZEDs? Modify the zed squads so that there are no SC+FP/FP+FP/SC+SC/SC+SC+FP squads, increase the number of SC and FP's that spawn in the wave AND make an attempt to get a better aggro system. That way when people find interesting quick kills/combos with a variety of weaponry they can show it off in game.

go nuts.

t sounds like bosses and so called "trash" are not even considered an actually worthwhile opportunity to develop and display skill. I know people rebelled with pitchforks when Tripwire tried to promote trash zeds to something worth strategizing against. However, in all these discussions I completely missed the big idea why people need 9 different kinds of equally trivial trash zeds.
What is so bad about inventing siren kill "combos"?

i think they just went a little overboard with doing that. a good idea, but made the Light Units feel a little bit spongy. some of them even moderately spongy to Weapons that should be relatively powerful.

i approve of the thought but not to the extent it went to.

 

[Chaos Marine]

What I do, regardless of the perk, I pull out my melee weapon and try to block/counter their rush attack. You'll still take some damage but a lot less than you otherwise would.

 

[Escadin]

If it still sticks to you that one person is killing all the large ZEDs and none for everyone else then - "Modify the zed squads so that there are no SC+FP/FP+FP/SC+SC/SC+SC+FP squads, increase the number of SC and FP's that spawn in the wave AND make an attempt to get a better aggro system."

Honestly that sounds like bringing the giants in line with trash to me. "Just make them easier to control but more in number". There is a constant stream of them and it's somebody's job to kill them quietly in a corner.

I think I know where the devide is:
You want gameplay to evolve around a very basic horde / gallery shooter that just feeds kills to anyone with the skill to take them. No behavior out of line so you have maximum freedom to experiment on your end.

I, on the other hand, am on board with Tripwire's idea to make the game more dynamic providing the need to consgantly adapt (even though I don't think they've really accomplished it yet). However, upcoming additions may help a great deal with that especially the spawn control system and it's potential combination with the game conductor. Customizing and developing your personal tool set still must be an important part but not the only cause.

I don't mean to say there is a right or wrong here. Your idea is part of what made me play hundreds of hours of KF1. There is nothing wrong about it but I still prefer KF2 for some reason.

 

[Gladius]

If it still sticks to you that one person is killing all the large ZEDs and none for everyone else then - "Modify the zed squads so that there are no SC+FP/FP+FP/SC+SC/SC+SC+FP squads, increase the number of SC and FP's that spawn in the wave AND make an attempt to get a better aggro system."

This is pretty much what the KF1 sandbox scene has the game evolved into. It's saturating the players with nasty squads, high spawn density and increased amount of zeds that are on the same time on the map. The KF2 waves feel so empty when you are used to sandbox games like that.

With the introduction of the railgun there is no more reason to hold back with creating more speedkilling methods and combos. What it needs now is absolutely more SC/FP spawns.

 

[FoolishNinja]

With the introduction of the railgun there is no more reason to hold back with creating more speedkilling methods and combos. What it needs now is absolutely more SC/FP spawns.

Or faster and more lethal Scrakes and FPs? I mean they do very low damage if you have armor. Something between 30 armor and 20hp damage. You can get multiple hits from a FP and you wont die. In KF1 it was like 2 hits?

If we increase the amount of Sc and FP I also want that the global roar should be disabled. Imagine the spam and the interrupting your song.

 

[notshiro]

OP should try playing gunslinger. Dual 500 magnum headshots can easily take down hell on earth scrakes and fleshpounds. It's pretty much a kf1 m14 on steroids

 

[q3.railgun]

I think I know where the devide is:
You want gameplay to evolve around a very basic horde / gallery shooter that just feeds kills to anyone with the skill to take them. No behavior out of line so you have maximum freedom to experiment on your end.

I, on the other hand, am on board with Tripwire's idea to make the game more dynamic providing the need to consgantly adapt (even though I don't think they've really accomplished it yet). However, upcoming additions may help a great deal with that especially the spawn control system and it's potential combination with the game conductor. Customizing and developing your personal tool set still must be an important part but not the only cause.

The game doesn't really have much of a dynamic outside of 2 things.
1) When a teammate rages a large ZED onto you without any warning or understanding of what they've done.
2) When you're dealing with a large ZED squad, how you're going to clean up that group.

Outside of this, it's really static gameplay of shoot ZEDs and hit heads to kill ZEDs faster. All GC did, when it was in full force, was have our games end quicker and we had to start our large ZED killing earlier.

Basically, the game is already dynamic depending on how carefree that one teammate is. There's no reason to tip the scales even more when it's already a russian roulette on how the game is going to play out. I'm pretty sure that people want to go after the large ZED kills all the time, especially when people leave their side to go participate in a kill. Why not honor that and give what the people want, single player spamming headshots or a full team spamming bodyshots the method to kill a large ZED isn't going to change anytime soon so might as well give people more of them to shoot at.

 

[Escadin]

The game doesn't really have much of a dynamic outside of 2 things.
1) When a teammate rages a large ZED onto you without any warning or understanding of what they've done.
2) When you're dealing with a large ZED squad, how you're going to clean up that group.

Outside of this, it's really static gameplay of shoot ZEDs and hit heads to kill ZEDs faster. All GC did, when it was in full force, was have our games end quicker and we had to start our large ZED killing earlier.

Basically, the game is already dynamic depending on how carefree that one teammate is. There's no reason to tip the scales even more when it's already a russian roulette on how the game is going to play out. I'm pretty sure that people want to go after the large ZED kills all the time, especially when people leave their side to go participate in a kill. Why not honor that and give what the people want, single player spamming headshots or a full team spamming bodyshots the method to kill a large ZED isn't going to change anytime soon so might as well give people more of them to shoot at.

I don't really understand because that sounds contradictorily to me.

Not sure what your point is so I'm just gonna emphasize that dynamic =/= RNG.

 

[kreso5]

OP should try playing gunslinger. Dual 500 magnum headshots can easily take down hell on earth scrakes and fleshpounds. It's pretty much a kf1 m14 on steroids

Did, got bored and annoyed how incosistently I couldn't kill FP before he kicked me, raging him and then parry with Katana isn't really satisfying for me.

 

[notshiro]

Did, got bored and annoyed how incosistently I couldn't kill FP before he kicked me, raging him and then parry with Katana isn't really satisfying for me.

It's actually possible to kill fp without ever getting hit. With about 5-7 stacks of REU gunslinger can kill a fleshpound with a full mag of 500. No need to parry at all either, you can tank the hit and finish with reloaded 500 or switch to dual DE if you missed a few shots.

 

[q3.railgun]

I don't really understand because that sounds contradictorily to me.

Not sure what your point is so I'm just gonna emphasize that dynamic =/= RNG.

Dynamic gameplay here in KF2 is all about RNG...

Take Game Conductor for example. For the people that it effects, it changes enemy speed, enemy spawn rate depending on how the player's are performing (has a player died, overall health, overall time the zed is alive after seen, overall accuracy, overall headshot accuracy). Also with the change to the afflictions, the more time passes the number of shots required might go up.

However despite that, to myself and groups that I've played with none of that mattered. We were still able to hold control over the game, the only thing that acted as a 50-50 risk was whether a random teammate was going to decide to shoot at a SC/FP as soon as it appeared to just have it come rushing in on us or immediately rerage a FP after calming it down (which was our RNG).

Anyway, my original point was still that the game should still hold onto both meanings of Killing Floor's teamwork to expand on the gameplay. Kill 1 and you're killing 50%+ of the playerbase. The recent TP changes may bring back a good group of folks but if you alienate the group of M14 players, you'll lose just as much again.

It's actually possible to kill fp without ever getting hit. With about 5-7 stacks of REU gunslinger can kill a fleshpound with a full mag of 500. No need to parry at all either, you can tank the hit and finish with reloaded 500 or switch to dual DE if you missed a few shots.

To add further, as of 1034 with the lessened hp amounts : 9 Sw500 from a 0 combo start or 2 DE and 8 SW500. This is a lot less than what it used to be pre 1034. As notshiro stated, GS is like the M14 SS from KF1 just with less ammo.

 

[Gladius]

It's actually possible to kill fp without ever getting hit. With about 5-7 stacks of REU gunslinger can kill a fleshpound with a full mag of 500. No need to parry at all either, you can tank the hit and finish with reloaded 500 or switch to dual DE if you missed a few shots.

Stack of 2 is all that is needed to reduce the required shots-to-kill from 9 to 8. Without that REU bonus it's still very doable.

#whysharpssucks

 

[Gladius]

Or faster and more lethal Scrakes and FPs? I mean they do very low damage if you have armor. Something between 30 armor and 20hp damage. You can get multiple hits from a FP and you wont die. In KF1 it was like 2 hits?

If we increase the amount of Sc and FP I also want that the global roar should be disabled. Imagine the spam and the interrupting your song.

KF1 FP can one-hit any perk in full health and full armor. Even zerk with it's damage reduction can get one-hit on a "lucky" roll.

Scrakes should definately become faster. That raging scrakes can be outrun is bad for the gameplay overall, because unexperienced players don't really have a reason to learn any game mechanics, as long as they don't get punished for their mistakes. I still remember the first time I encountered a scrake in KF1. I raged it, got a chainsaw to the face and then did some research afterwards how to avoid that in the future.

 

[Escadin]

Stack of 2 is all that is needed to reduce the required shots-to-kill from 9 to 8. Without that REU bonus it's still very doable.

#whysharpssucks

Comparing T4 with T3... good point.

Also with the change to the afflictions, the more time passes the number of shots required might go up.

Wait what? That is just... terrible.

I think right now the GC is mainly used to balance pub matches where you usually have to include weak links and drunks. What I meant is, that the GC could pose as part of the context for the game's strategy choice. Assuming they will use the announced spawn control mechanism to implement different strategies eventually. However, the game is still more dynamic than KF1starting with the less static movement patterns, going over perk roles defined by skill choices and ending with overall less allmighty perks. None of this is RNG.

Of course, there is more they can do to improve this which is why I advocate to drop the static, giant take-down focused gameplay legacy from KF1.

Anyway, my original point was still that the game should still hold onto both meanings of Killing Floor's teamwork to expand on the gameplay. Kill 1 and you're killing 50%+ of the playerbase. The recent TP changes may bring back a good group of folks but if you alienate the group of M14 players, you'll lose just as much again.

To add further, as of 1034 with the lessened hp amounts : 9 Sw500 from a 0 combo start or 2 DE and 8 SW500. This is a lot less than what it used to be pre 1034. As notshiro stated, GS is like the M14 SS from KF1 just with less ammo.

I still don't think it's been explained well enough what that "group of M14 players" actually wants, how they want to achieve it and why they can't just play the GS if what you say is true. It honestly makes no sense to me. Anyway, your idea of teamwork is still in the game and it has been consistently buffed since release as far as I can tell.

It's really hard to argue a point or to apply a suggestion when it's basically just "Don't alienate me" or "Now you've done it again".

 

[silverlighted]

I thought that the point has been clear from some time. And you've even acknowledged it in previous posts, or so I thought. At the risk of misrepresentation, they're talking about consistent, technical, AND effective takedown options. (I'm not part of the camp, but that's what I gather from what's being said, and from my own experiences with both games, which is why even though I wasn't rocking the m14 in KF1, I don't find the arguments here to be nonsensical or anything.)

I mean, you didn't even realize the changes to afflictions? lol That was huge. And I understand what TWI was looking to do. People were upset with how, with x weapon, why can't I ever push y enemy back. But by having all the afflictions be related to the buildup system, there is no consistency there, and it encourages team spam. And if it encourage is a strong word, it's certainly the case that the game is being balanced around that. I mean, in the m14 nerf topics, some people were even justifying it by saying, hey, you're not the only one who's gonna be contributing stun to the big guy. This intentionally removes consistency/reliability from the equation. This is RNG. But you're playing this game from a perspective where you didn't even notice that change. This defines the two camps, the two playstyles.

If you don't like the "shooting gallery", however you phrased, it that's fine. You don't have to play that way. But this is about presenting options to be able control hold spots cleanly and effectively (but not necessarily easily). Other than just picking up a railgun and some pistols.

And seriously, what kind of comment is, well if GS is basically just m14ss from KF1, why not go play GS. lol Maybe some people don't want to play gunslinger. This isn't that strange.

 

[q3.railgun]

Of course, there is more they can do to improve this which is why I advocate to drop the static, giant take-down focused gameplay legacy from KF1.

This I actually don't get considering your posts thus far. Your very first post to this thread links Dev's SUP flinch kill. Which is exactly what I quoted above is fighting against.

To re-iterate : There are 2 playing styles in KF1/KF2.
1) Camping
2) Kiting

Now within point 1 there are 3 styles :
1) Team spam on anything and everything.
2) Large ZED X appears, Perk Y counters (insta kill).
3) Large ZED X appears, Players Y counters. All others clear trash for Players Y.

I'm rooting for Camping (3). The video you linked is also of style Camping (3). However, whether you realize it or not you're trying to argue against Camping (3).

Oh and perhaps I should add this as well too, all of the above does not assume walling.

 

[Escadin]

Seems like there has been a couple misunderstandings:

First one is mine:

I mean, you didn't even realize the changes to afflictions?

I understood the quoted part from q3 as "GC makes it so that #hits required to cause an affliction changes sometimes" which would be absolutely terrible.



Second is your's, silverlighted:

And seriously, what kind of comment is, well if GS is basically just m14ss from KF1, why not go play GS. lol Maybe some people don't want to play gunslinger. This isn't that strange.

It wasn't a comment. I asked what is the qualitative difference between between KF1 M14 and GS? Why don't people who want the old M14 back play gunslinger if these are basically the same according to q3? Also what exactly makes the old M14 that special?

It's an honest question everytime I ask it yet I always get the same reply... sigh



Third is this:

Now within point 1 there are 3 styles :
1) Team spam on anything and everything.
2) Large ZED X appears, Perk Y counters (insta kill).
3) Large ZED X appears, Players Y counters. All others clear trash for Players Y.

I'm rooting for Camping (3). The video you linked is also of style Camping (3). However, whether you realize it or not you're trying to argue against Camping (3).

I'm not against (3) Player (as opposed to perk) Y kills giant X. I'm opposed to team/perk/player killing giants as the only meaningful playstyle.

I should go into more detail but it's off topic and the post is already long enough.



===============


And another thing:

But by having all the afflictions be related to the buildup system, there is no consistency there, and it encourages team spam. And if it encourage is a strong word, it's certainly the case that the game is being balanced around that.

I don't see how the mechanic itself encourages everyone to shoot the same giant. It only makes it possible - an option - as opposed to before where every time somebody hits the hitbox it would freak out (damage in kf1) or some dimwitt snatches the stumble cooldown you need for your safe kill (kf2 before). It also made it balancable to have lower affliction cooldowns across the board which is another big plus imo.
It's not mindless group spam if your medic opts for helping out with giant kills by buying a crossbow. Instead of standing by he can add damage and stun power to somebody else's attempt which is just as much teamplay as killing the trash off his back.

I mean, in the m14 nerf topics, some people were even justifying it by saying, hey, you're not the only one who's gonna be contributing stun to the big guy.

Yeah, I mean generally a perk should be good enough to reach the threshold on it's own especially while specc'd for it. However, an incap as strong as stun should require extra effort so why not team effort or a T4 giant slayer (only) weapon?

 

[q3.railgun]

I didn't mean to tell people what to do. I asked what is the qualitative difference between between KF1 M14 and GS? Why don't people who want the old M14 back don't play gunslinger if they're basically the same according to q3?

They're quite different. One uses pistols and one uses rifles. Going by this logic, people that played FB should have COM removed from the game and vice versa because they handle the same thing.

It's when we start thinking this way that you come to actually realize, why does KF2 have more than 2 perks? Looking at where we are now, it's really difficult to get out of that mentality which is why I keep saying that multiple playing methods should be kept open. Forcing one style tends to lead to a boring game. Right now, there's a method of baiting SC's close melee that allows for him to be killed with any weapon. You can also freeze FP's AI and kill him with any weapon. These aren't using the ingame mechanics, these are just exploiting AI bugs to your advantage. We don't want to see a spamming shooting gallery, we would like a thoughtful shooting gallery.

You may have to go into detail on your third point. Since I'm sure "team/perk/player vs large zed is not what you want" is not what you actually meant if you read that.

 

[Escadin]

They're quite different. One uses pistols and one uses rifles. Going by this logic, people that played FB should have COM removed from the game and vice versa because they handle the same thing.

It's when we start thinking this way that you come to actually realize, why does KF2 have more than 2 perks? Looking at where we are now, it's really difficult to get out of that mentality which is why I keep saying that multiple playing methods should be kept open. Forcing one style tends to lead to a boring game. Right now, there's a method of baiting SC's close melee that allows for him to be killed with any weapon. You can also freeze FP's AI and kill him with any weapon. These aren't using the ingame mechanics, these are just exploiting AI bugs to your advantage. We don't want to see a spamming shooting gallery, we would like a thoughtful shooting gallery.

I'm sorry but you ran off in the wrong direction with this. The negative example won't do because it's not obvious to me what the positive counter part would be. If you really just want a rifle version of what dual magnums are balance and gameplay wise but with an M14 model, texture and sound set then perhaps they should make the M14 mag smaller, remove stun entirely (granted they pretty much did this for solo purposes) and increase damage?
If there is a particular variation you have in mind then I'd honestly like to hear it!

 

[Escadin]

You may have to go into detail on your third point. Since I'm sure "team/perk/player vs large zed is not what you want" is not what you actually meant if you read that.

Well I guess it's not that much off topic actually. First of all, I'll highlight the part you seemingly missed:

I'm not against (3) Player (as opposed to perk) Y kills giant X. I'm opposed to team/perk/player killing giants as the only meaningful playstyle.

KF1 revolved around giant take downs. KF2 on the other hand offers ways to spec against that and focus on other things instead. The thing is these alternative specs are neither necessary nor popular. That's what makes the game static. Up to 6 waves of warm up and cash grinding followed by the kill fest where everyone can show what they're made of. Every. Single. Match. Are there no options?

Well I've recently played some Vermintide (bear with me - I don't like comparing apples to oranges either)...

What relevant aspects on an abstract level it has in a nutshell:

1. There are a good hand full of player roles:

• Crowd control
• Crowd kill
• Ambient trash clearer
• Special control
• Special kill
• Boss slayer
• Boss control

2. These roles are can be chosen via perk customization (comparable to KF2 except KF has less roles to fill) and like in KF2 it's possible to cross cut. However, opposed to KF2 most of them are static once the game starts.

3. During a match you're guaranteed to end up in a situation for every role to shine while others assume a more supportive stance (keeping their back clean). There are hord events that require Crowd control if they catch you in the open, constant special ambushes and the obligatory but random ogre or pat spawn. Some of these situations / events are random (not IF but WHEN) others are not.


Now the important part to take away here:
Sometimes controlling and clearing the trash horde is an actual concern that those specialized in boss/ special killing cannot cope with even though they usually can. Same goes for every other (role / situation) combination except boss slayer and control because those are partly decided by who picks up which consumable during the campaign.


What is so good about that?
Once such an event hits you have 2 aspects that make gameplay feel way more dynamic than in KF2.
1) You need to recoordinate your team.
2) Other choosen roles get a turn at playing the primary apex who's skill matters.


And I think we're on a good road to achieve something similar if Tripwire doesn't get swayed by all this "we need more pro giant slayer combos" talk. Of course we need those, but we need other things as well.



===

PS: Tripwire even tried to adapt to another pro of Vermintide/L4D like games: Map awareness and coordination of a moving team. Unfortunately, they could not achieve this through destructable lights and nerfed welding as they thought.