I think it's time we change how we deal with FP/SC (mainly FP)

[q3.railgun]

I assume youre talking about the combos, In KF2 there are as same as lot of systems to deal with zeds, for example stumbling leg and body stumble, stun, flinch-lock, weapon combos, etc.
It has the same system as KF1 but more.

Ever seen support taking down 6p HoE scrake with just a db? The player does some insane combos, what you could never do in KF1.

I'd say KF2 only has flinches that are usable now. Pre 1034, they had all those options because it was an on/off switch. Now with the fire incap style changes, you go from weapon X WILL stumble ZED Y to weapon X will only stumble ZED Y if I fire R many shots into his arm within T seconds otherwise it is R+1 or R+2 shots. This just doesn't promote proper play. Eventually we'll get to a point where player A will always take a static amount of shots due to teammates clearing and his own personal skill has finally hit the ceiling but until then you have a huge variance. Due to this, flinches caused by a bash/melee are the only usable cases in a combo.

The difference is as such : pre 1034 I could say 2 DE HS, 5 SW500 HS with the first SW500 stumbling (for SC). Currently : I sadly can say, go ahead and ADS on SC's head then spam through DE and SW500. It'll flinch, stumble, flinch again and then eventually kill. That just isn't my kind of game.

The SUP SC DBS kill that's gaining popularity now is possible because of the flinch's low cooldown. There have been methods to kill prior to this from 1000-1008 (circle strafe days) and from 1009-1033 (bombard tactics). In KF1, it was even faster due to the katana flinch -> HSG uppercut.

Who knows where this game is going to end up but the one point I can bring back up is keep the options open for multiple playstyles.

 

[FoolishNinja]

Seems like you didn't play much KF1?

i was talking about the db combo(double headshot,knee shot, head,etc.) whats impossible to do in KF1, since it was more static.

 

[FoolishNinja]

It just took me under a minute to find this nice showcase of interesting combo in KF1 (and I bet it isn't only one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpMI8R2GpdU

there you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1MaKzRbyxE
it still works.
there are more combos for example, as demo:
c4, throw nade, fire rpg
fire rpg on scrakes head,shoot with .500 on his head 3x

 

[Gladius]

I assume youre talking about the combos, In KF2 there are as same as lot of systems to deal with zeds, for example stumbling leg and body stumble, stun, flinch-lock, weapon combos, etc.
It has the same system as KF1 but more.

Ever seen support taking down 6p HoE scrake with just a db? The player does some insane combos, what you could never do in KF1.

When it comes to KF1 it always shines through that you have 183 hours there. Support is the best example why KF1 has at that point so much more to offer. Supp is the prime combo perk because he can carry so much and there is actually a wide range of weapons to choose from. KF2 supp just shows how underdeveloped the game still is. Hopefully that will change some day when there is more content available and the afflictions got more fine tuning. And shoot - bash - run - shoot - bash ... is just not any near as satisfying then doing a jumpshot or uppercut in KF1. KF2 is still on AA12 halwayhero level. It has a long way to go...

 

[Gladius]

there you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1MaKzRbyxE
it still works.
there are more combos for example

Sorry, but this is not a combo. It's some kind of dance or something.

 

[FoolishNinja]

dont get fooled from the hours i played KF1, its more than it shows there.

The link I showed about the scrake and the db, it counts as a combo between stumbling and headshotting him.
There are more combos but people dont know them yet, because the system is so fresh and new.
In KF1, nobody knew any combo when it came out. After few years, people learned how to deal with big zeds with each specific perk and this will happen in KF2 as well.

Lets just wait and see how the game evolves. People will discover new combos and it will be great again.

 

[taiiat]

i see no issue with using a Melee Weapon to Block/Parry, or using Bash/Shove/Stab Attacks to get breathing room to shoot something else, Et Cetera.
that's part of Player Skill, and i thank you for being willing to actually put in enough effort in your Gameplay to realize you have more Tools available to you than just 'shoot another bullet until i win' or 'turn off this Enemy so that i win without contest'.


(i see we're being infested by people that need to rely on Engine Exploits, and that now all Threads will have the same whining that they can't turn off the game. k.)

My main grudge with the stun change is that the duration is too short to utilize the stun if you switch weapon.

definitely a bit meh.

I'd say KF2 only has flinches that are usable now. Pre 1034, they had all those options because it was an on/off switch. Now with the fire incap style changes, you go from weapon X WILL stumble ZED Y to weapon X will only stumble ZED Y if I fire R many shots into his arm within T seconds otherwise it is R+1 or R+2 shots. This just doesn't promote proper play. Eventually we'll get to a point where player A will always take a static amount of shots due to teammates clearing and his own personal skill has finally hit the ceiling but until then you have a huge variance. Due to this, flinches caused by a bash/melee are the only usable cases in a combo.

the Buildups are certainly 'unreliable' and make for inconsistency even if the Player is 'doing it right'. somewhat lower thresholds but having a short Cooldown to prevent chaining (basically a mixture of the two sides of the fence) is likely the best choice.

it counts as a combo between stumbling and headshotting him.

nah, nothing is a Combo except what one person wants to do. any other possible type of strategy is nothing and worthless. :^)

 

[Frost Spectre]

I think the EBR takes another role, with larger mag, faster reload, faster firerate, especially since it deals less damage than LAR and now it's not reliable weapon to take down SCs and FPs on its own. It just screams trash clear but with special place as medium clear (those pesky Gorefasts, Bloats, Husks and Sirens fall quickly with skilled EBR user)

But can recover some of its capabilities as heavy hitter vs. big ones (SCs atleast, FPs is abit more tricky) by combining with Crossbow (Crossbow also holds kinda reliable source of DPS with 350 per shot, would translate 44 arrows with Always Prepared into 22 railgun shots nut more damage by going with its option to retrieve the arrows or get more arrows from ammo boxes than railgun ammo)...

So technically we're stuck at waiting for those extra weapons per perk, like bolt-action rifle, potentially another marksman rifle (or maybe crossover weapon by allowing SCAR semi-auto to benefit bonuses from SS) and maybe another arrow/spear weapon.
Much the same with every other perk.

We're just stuck at the weapons available at the moment.

 

[Pavlov's Dog]

Has anyone tried demolitionist effectiveness vs FPs since the class's rework? That's the defacto FP killing class - or at least it used to be. I haven't given demo a look since the rework 'cause sharps is just too fun at the moment, but I had meant to see how the changes have affected it.

And why should the M14 be able to take out a FP with any amount of effectiveness? Because it's a T3? So what? I never felt like that was the intended function of the weapon. Railgun feels like it should be the big zed killer. Yes the M14 could use a damage boost, and I think it's good that the stun effect got reduced, but I don't want to see it turn into a FP-killer that can compete with the railgun. That would feel wrong to me.

 

[Gladius]

dont get fooled from the hours i played KF1, its more than it shows there.

The link I showed about the scrake and the db, it counts as a combo between stumbling and headshotting him.
There are more combos but people dont know them yet, because the system is so fresh and new.
In KF1, nobody knew any combo when it came out. After few years, people learned how to deal with big zeds with each specific perk and this will happen in KF2 as well.

Lets just wait and see how the game evolves. People will discover new combos and it will be great again.

It's not about hours, it's about the picture you always paint about KF1. That doesn't speak exactly for deep insight.

Personally I wouldn't call that KF2 boomstick bash scrake dance a combo. Because it takes so much time and space that it is only in very specific situations possible. When you need to fire the boomstick three times while evading the scrakes attacks and bashing him back, then this is whatever but no combo. I would call it a takedown method or some kind of dance...

Right now it's not like there would be anything really cool possible that people just didn't discover yet. People make videos and there is an exchange on testmap servers. KF2 has the potential for good combos with it's hitzones and afflictions etc. but what TWI made out of that is just totally underdeveloped and unimaginative. That stunning FP concept and sharps debacle just shows how they struggle to come up with solid systems. I still try to keep my hopes up. Although that sharps debacle was disillusioning. Eventually at some point they will focus on these crucial gameplay details instead of wasting ressources on stuff like PvP.

 

[Gladius]

And why should the M14 be able to take out a FP with any amount of effectiveness? Because it's a T3? So what? I never felt like that was the intended function of the weapon. Railgun feels like it should be the big zed killer.

There is a game called Killing Floor. And there the LAR/EBR is a great thing. And in KF2 it's not. It's so far just showing how TWI is struggeling with sharps and that it got released before it was really ready. Sharps needs to have different viable and fun playstyles. The railgun for the filthy casuals and then something more satisfying like a proper EBR and LAR.

 

[FoolishNinja]

It's not about hours, it's about the picture you always paint about KF1. That doesn't speak exactly for deep insight.

Personally I wouldn't call that KF2 boomstick bash scrake dance a combo. Because it takes so much time and space that it is only in very specific situations possible. When you need to fire the boomstick three times while evading the scrakes attacks and bashing him back, then this is whatever but no combo. I would call it a takedown method or some kind of dance...

Right now it's not like there would be anything really cool possible that people just didn't discover yet. People make videos and there is an exchange on testmap servers. KF2 has the potential for good combos with it's hitzones and afflictions etc. but what TWI made out of that is just totally underdeveloped and unimaginative. That stunning FP concept and sharps debacle just shows how they struggle to come up with solid systems. I still try to keep my hopes up. Although that sharps debacle was disillusioning. Eventually at some point they will focus on these crucial gameplay details instead of wasting ressources on stuff like PvP.

The learning curve in KF2 is much higher than the old one, you have to do these kind of dodges and stumbles to take down a big zed. What you want is, that every perk should kill a mini boss (FP) under seconds by aiming on his head, without doing anything that involves skill.


I give you an example how people managed to kill FPs on HoE:

Support: AA-12 on his head; dead under 3seconds
Sharpshooter: 4 Headshots with crossbow, easy to land, since it stuns
Zerker: headshot it with the claymore, flinch lock it

These things are gone now. You didnt need any skill at all! What you want is an easier game.

 

[Gladius]

The learning curve in KF2 is much higher than the old one, you have to do these kind of dodges and stumbles to take down a big zed. What you want is, that every perk should kill a mini boss (FP) under seconds by aiming on his head, without doing anything that involves skill.

This just shows how blurred your view at KF1 is.

I give you an example how people managed to kill FPs on HoE:

Support: AA-12 on his head; dead under 3seconds
Sharpshooter: 4 Headshots with crossbow, easy to land, since it stuns
Zerker: headshot it with the claymore, flinch lock it

These things are gone now. You didnt need any skill at all! What you want is an easier game.

No. You don't understand. And what you say about KF1 shows again you don't know what you're talking about.

You think I'm asking for the return of the casual stuff. But what I want is that KF2 brings back the good stuff and you don't even understand what that is. Because it's not AA12 spamming a FP what by the way is right now pretty much the current meta in KF2. And this is the problem. TWI is at the moment just bringing the most trivial to do things back like lame railgun 2-hit kills and AA12 spam. But they fail to produce systems that are as good as what KF1 has to offer. KF2 right now is far from having nearly the same depth of gameplay. And this has to change.

 

[q3.railgun]

What you want is, that every perk should kill a mini boss (FP) under seconds by aiming on his head, without doing anything that involves skill.

I give you an example how people managed to kill FPs on HoE:

Support: AA-12 on his head; dead under 3seconds
Sharpshooter: 4 Headshots with crossbow, easy to land, since it stuns
Zerker: headshot it with the claymore, flinch lock it

These things are gone now. You didnt need any skill at all! What you want is an easier game.

Your post is going to open a wildfire and it's not really helping your case.
He isn't asking for M14 to go back to the stun capability, but he is opting for something similar to flinch locking. Maybe not to the degree of KF1's spammable but at least by giving new flinch animations that can only be utilized with a SS perk skill that has tight timing windows (SC only).

I also really have no problem with every perk having the capability to solo 6P HoE FPs. Obviously the fastest and most optimal methods are going to be the preferred but this game should be able to retain the teamplay style from KF1 where people could pull the ZED aggro and then kill them while their team kills trash without forcing this moba/tf2/OW style of ZED X is here Perk Y counter it. It really should be able to hang onto the, any perk - "Don't worry I got this" style. How they are going to go about doing that is really tough with all the decisions made because the main point in the current KF2 game is all about proc'ing afflictions as much as possible (i.e. spamway), outside of that it's a headshotters game. Which is why quick kills/combos right now all revolve around getting headshots in and as fast as possible.

Right now we're right back to the same argument from the past of camp vs kite playstyles. With teleportation reduced, both styles are playable now right? Why not do the same with the game itself? Is it not arguable that Killing Floor is meant to be a game where people can have fun just shooting incoming ZEDs? Modify the zed squads so that there are no SC+FP/FP+FP/SC+SC/SC+SC+FP squads, increase the number of SC and FP's that spawn in the wave AND make an attempt to get a better aggro system. That way when people find interesting quick kills/combos with a variety of weaponry they can show it off in game.

 

[Escadin]

Your post is going to open a wildfire and it's not really helping your case.
He isn't asking for M14 to go back to the stun capability, but he is opting for something similar to flinch locking. Maybe not to the degree of KF1's spammable but at least by giving new flinch animations that can only be utilized with a SS perk skill that has tight timing windows (SC only).

No not really. A non spammable flinch that can only be utilized using ballisitc shock is something I suggested in another thread. However, Gladius idea is to increase M14 damage. You kinda mixed things up here
He's also extremely nitpicky about what gameplay aspect he personally considers skillfull and argues this point with nothing but insults and "I know better" which started the wildfire in the first place. I'd be very thankful if you, of all people, didn't side with this.

Anyway, I'm not fully against every perk being capable of soloing everything at varing effectiveness but the "teamplay" of KF1 is something we should leave behind imo. In reality, the teamplay meant 1 person handles trash and another one all giants. Then there is a demo on backup call(afk in TS) if somebody screws up and 5 people spectate whether they're actual spectators, the medic or any other perk. The roles can be shuffled and mixed of course and others may join in (1 solo player per lane for example) and compete for kills but it's not a necessity.

The perks were simply way too capable and I don't see how 1 sharpshooter being able to substitute 3-4 players amounts to actual teamplay in any way. Given that support, commando and firebug were comparably strong I think there was also very little in terms of perk indentity. One perk that can use all weapons equall effective would have accomplished the same goal (just to illustrate).
The thing is, if we're going to have 10 perks with 5 meaningfull skill choices each then there has to be a more ristrictive balance. For example, most perks can kill most zeds but they have to focus on some of them via load-out and skill choices.

Another issue nobody seems to realize is that whenever somebody talks about "skill" they usually mean killing scrakes and fleshpounds. It sounds like bosses and so called "trash" are not even considered an actually worthwhile opportunity to develop and display skill. I know people rebelled with pitchforks when Tripwire tried to promote trash zeds to something worth strategizing against. However, in all these discussions I completely missed the big idea why people need 9 different kinds of equally trivial trash zeds.
What is so bad about inventing siren kill "combos"?

Finally, the term combo is very vague. It's more like a buzzword mostly used by glorified vets but when you think about what is often called a combo then it's very hard to understand what alledgedly makes KF1 so much better. For example, where is the big difference between having to pump X headshots into a FP in KF1 vs. Y in KF2? It's "spam at head as fast as possible" in both cases. Perhaps there is a qualitative difference but nobody who uses the term could point it out yet. Perhaps this is also why Tripwire appearently didn't manage to replicate it... ?

 

[spidernetlabs]

Support: AA-12 on his head; dead under 3seconds

Try that on a 6p HoE game, YOU will be dead in under 3 seconds.

Sharpshooter: 4 Headshots with crossbow, easy to land, since it stuns

xbow can't stun FPs in KF1

Zerker: headshot it with the claymore, flinch lock it

Claymore can't flinchlock a fleshpound.

These things are gone now. You didnt need any skill at all! What you want is an easier game.

Sure.

at least q3.railgun gets it.

 

[FoolishNinja]

Try that on a 6p HoE game, YOU will be dead in under 3 seconds.
That works as support, im pretty sure about that.

xbow can't stun FPs in KF1

Claymore can't flinchlock a fleshpound.
Looks like i mixed up FP and Sc, my bad.


at least q3.railgun gets it.

Anyway, it was a lot easier in KF1 to deal with big zeds than it is in KF2. Reason for that is the, higher HP and less damage by weapons and the trash zeds being faster.

 

[Gladius]

Anyway, it was a lot easier in KF1 to deal with big zeds than it is in KF2. Reason for that is the, higher HP and less damage by weapons and the trash zeds being faster.

That is a myth.

In KF2 you can rage a scrake and then just outrun him and kite him until hes dead. In KF1 a raging scrake will be asap in your face and the only option you have then is kill him.

KF1 fleshpounds can one-hit-kill a zerk in full armor. KF2 fleshpounds deal way less damage and every perk can even lower that with a knife block. And here is exactly where the problem starts. KF2 doesn't even create the need for sophisticated combos and speedkills because why bothering when you can just run away and still get things done with bodyshooting any weapon you like.

What I'm saying is not that I want super easy cheasy speedkilling methods. I want cool combos and takedown methods and not that benny hill style run and gun nonsense. Railgun 2-hit, EBR autoclicker, AA12 spam... all that bs.

 

[q3.railgun]

Anyway, I'm not fully against every perk being capable of soloing everything at varing effectiveness but the "teamplay" of KF1 is something we should leave behind imo. In reality, the teamplay meant 1 person handles trash and another one all giants. Then there is a demo on backup call(afk in TS) if somebody screws up and 5 people spectate whether they're actual spectators, the medic or any other perk. The roles can be shuffled and mixed of course and others may join in (1 solo player per lane for example) and compete for kills but it's not a necessity.

The perks were simply way too capable and I don't see how 1 sharpshooter being able to substitute 3-4 players amounts to actual teamplay in any way. Given that support, commando and firebug were comparably strong I think there was also very little in terms of perk indentity. One perk that can use all weapons equall effective would have accomplished the same goal (just to illustrate).

I think the speed at which things move in KF2 already limits the playerbase who are able to solo hold a 5 man side. Solo holding 1-2 man side is a lot easier. That aside though, maybe it just depends on who you're playing with. In the regular group of folks that I played with, we usually had that exact setup except 2-3 trash clear w/1 player as a more dedicated large ZED. Even MED's would join in on trash clearing because well, who needs healing if nothing touches the players. Even in this situation though, we had swaps between who would go for the next large ZED (as you mentioned). However to us, this works. This still keeps people engaged and still shooting things. What broke everything was how outside zedtime stun was utilized by people. That led to people shooting large zeds as soon as they appeared with the assumption that people would magdump immediately, or now they were going for every single large zed kill (thus bringing us to your point of 1 player handles all the large ZEDs). This was made even worse with how the M14 was an offperk stun machine and how the Railgun operates. However despite all of this, there were people that actually knew how to use this to the team's advantage. For example, offperk LAR on chestshot would stun a FP but keep it under the rage threshold. I used this to my advantage to help out someone that was still fairly new to GS'ing large ZEDs to delay 1 FP while he focused on the first one. It all comes down to how certain mechanics are used.

In public gaming, you really do notice that people tunnel vision on the large ZEDs. They think they are helping but in fact they are just killing the team. If you can identify that a setup was messed up and you're trying to recover that's great, if everything is under control and you think you need to help then you're most likely just going to piss the player off. The best example of this I can think of is when MED's weapons used to leg stumble. A great MED would be able to identify a messed up kill and leg stumble on reload for you vs an uninformed MED that shoots legs anyway thinking they're doing the best thing for the situation.

This is where the KF1 mentality of teamplay makes a difference. You're not playing so that you go and solo everything but you're playing so that you make sure that your camp is clear.

If it still sticks to you that one person is killing all the large ZEDs and none for everyone else then - "Modify the zed squads so that there are no SC+FP/FP+FP/SC+SC/SC+SC+FP squads, increase the number of SC and FP's that spawn in the wave AND make an attempt to get a better aggro system."

 

[Gladius]

The current aggro system is the greatest problem the core game mechanics still have. It's difficult to pull SC/FP in a place where they can be safely taken down, when other players are not having the awareness to positioning themselves accordingly, to prevent unintended pulling. This makes especially pub games unnecessarily chaotic and results in situations where just everyone unloads in panic on the same big zed, while the trash is overrunning the camp site.

I hope TWI is keeping their word and they improve the AI.