woops ur right, and no, after BF3 beta came out I havent touched RO2, guess why?
I honestly think it's the maps.
- Thread starter Extension7
- Start date
Because you want to come on to this forum and make remarks that have no foundation re: your playing experience?
I agree with everything except for the bit about commisar's house. That map can die in a hole.
i don't see apartments as any harder than danzig. there's more windows covering the entrances, but there's also more ways to get in the cap zone. if the german team are any good at all, it's a nightmare to get in the cap. on both maps. smoke IS required on both to get across and take the zones. i usuallt go for squad leader or commander, to insure the smoke gets thrown right away. if the germans get a chance to set up good defensive positions before the russians get a few guys in, it's a long day. i don't see apartments as anything but a better looking danzig. game play is the same. so are the keys to taking the caps.
p.s. i didn't downvote you for your opinion. some other, less open-minded, folks did that. i gave you a + for stating your opinion as you see it.
I think OP is onto something. All the stock RO2 maps feel like we're playing maps designed for 16 players, or a COD-like audience of players who like the game to think for them, where they enjoy just the act of shooting...
The RO audience is far more tactical and strategically minded. The vast array of large, free flowing maps in RO1 was a major draw to players who like to outthink opponents, conserve their lives, and not just mindless rush into gunfire and get chewed up over and over.
I miss very deeply many of the maps available to RO1, for anything just the ability to move freely with mates to flank objectives and outfox opponents. Ro2 is very streamlined, but I must remember most TWI RO1 maps were also very small, limited, and streamlined...except maybe Krakowice, and 2-3 others.
The maps I think we recall as being very large, "tactical", and fit for open minded players, with realism and "tactics" were really a product of the WW2 historical community that were drawn to RO1 for the inherit realism of the personal gameplay, never mind the TWI maps. Many community maps were far from perfect aesthetically, but the freedom therein made them so enjoyable as a WW2 game focusing on riflemen and an Mg here and there, as opposed to mindless zombie arcade play associated with maps like Danzig/Apartments, and the majority of RO2 maps.
Because of this, I still have hope for this game, so long as the modding, and mapping community comes to life. TWI gave us an excellent platform to build upon, as we built upon RO1. The community will "fix" this game to suite the needs of it's historical/realism/tactical player base, meanwhile the nubs and pubs can die 500 times over in Danzig 24/7 for all I care.
The RO audience is far more tactical and strategically minded. The vast array of large, free flowing maps in RO1 was a major draw to players who like to outthink opponents, conserve their lives, and not just mindless rush into gunfire and get chewed up over and over.
I miss very deeply many of the maps available to RO1, for anything just the ability to move freely with mates to flank objectives and outfox opponents. Ro2 is very streamlined, but I must remember most TWI RO1 maps were also very small, limited, and streamlined...except maybe Krakowice, and 2-3 others.
The maps I think we recall as being very large, "tactical", and fit for open minded players, with realism and "tactics" were really a product of the WW2 historical community that were drawn to RO1 for the inherit realism of the personal gameplay, never mind the TWI maps. Many community maps were far from perfect aesthetically, but the freedom therein made them so enjoyable as a WW2 game focusing on riflemen and an Mg here and there, as opposed to mindless zombie arcade play associated with maps like Danzig/Apartments, and the majority of RO2 maps.
Because of this, I still have hope for this game, so long as the modding, and mapping community comes to life. TWI gave us an excellent platform to build upon, as we built upon RO1. The community will "fix" this game to suite the needs of it's historical/realism/tactical player base, meanwhile the nubs and pubs can die 500 times over in Danzig 24/7 for all I care.
Last edited:
Gameplay can be slow, tactical, and methodical on small maps in Red Orchestra... others have stated this before and I agree--I'm not at all convinced that the maps are to blame for faster, more mindless gameplay. Take Bocklin. A terrible map in many respects, no offense to its makers, but the close-quarters fighting could be remarkably slow at times. Why? There was no need to rush for anything. You could take your time, pin down an enemy, consolidate a defense, plan a methodical push on the Garage or Warehouse.:IS2:
Instead, I maintain that it's the gameplay that is at fault. Harsh lockdown timing forces you to rush for every objective head-on. That's what prevents flanking, creative strategy, methodical progress. You can't flank the No Man's Land and enfilade the Germans behind the stone wall on Commissar's because after taking South Commissar's House, you have mere minutes to take the open ground.
True--lockdown is a MAP setting, to be sure, but it relates more towards gameplay than level design.
On open maps without lockdown or with generous lockdown timers--Barracks, Fallen Fighters, Spartanovka, and Pavlov's House, I've seen far more innovative tactics being used. Flanking through the pheripheral buildings on Barracks to take the Infirmary, Mess Hall, or Admin building is a common sight now. The Germans, while they still lose often on Pavlov's, are coming up with creative tactics that often catch the Soviets off guard and push them to the brink of defeat.
Secondly, gameplay changes increasing sway, decreasing zoom, etc... will make players more capzone-oriented. Players in Ostfront learned quickly on maps like Kryukovo that spawning as a Soviet and sniping at the Germans on the hill was fairly useless--because making a kill at that range was extremely difficult, and by the time you managed to pick off one German, three spawn waves would already have reinforced them. It was far more beneficial to push forward, toss grenades into the cap, taking the Germans on from close range. Not so in RO2--obtaining torso shots on a target at 150m is fairly easy, so snipe away... who cares about cap zones?
Automatic weapons. Even just three Mkbs on Apartments and Station are absolutely devastating. No need to say more here.
Apartments, perhaps, cannot be saved. The other maps? Once the new year rolls around and the first gameplay-oriented patches start arriving, I anticipate that gameplay on those beautiful, real-world-based maps will become far more intellectual.:IS2:
Finally, people are starting to figure out the maps. Fallen Fighters is starting to be a real contest. Germans are putting up more of a fight on Pavlov's. Remember--classic Ostfront maps were around for YEARS allowing people to master them. RO2's maps have only been around for... four months. I'll just say my hopes are high!
I also see nothing wrong with the setting of Stalingrad. The steppes of the Ukraine and the blasted plains around Kursk have their particular brand of romance--and the bloody sewers and shattered ruins of Stalingrad have theirs. Once the gameplay is perfected, close quarters fighting will have the level of nail-biting tension and grueling intensity that a game set in Stalingrad needs.
Instead, I maintain that it's the gameplay that is at fault. Harsh lockdown timing forces you to rush for every objective head-on. That's what prevents flanking, creative strategy, methodical progress. You can't flank the No Man's Land and enfilade the Germans behind the stone wall on Commissar's because after taking South Commissar's House, you have mere minutes to take the open ground.
True--lockdown is a MAP setting, to be sure, but it relates more towards gameplay than level design.
On open maps without lockdown or with generous lockdown timers--Barracks, Fallen Fighters, Spartanovka, and Pavlov's House, I've seen far more innovative tactics being used. Flanking through the pheripheral buildings on Barracks to take the Infirmary, Mess Hall, or Admin building is a common sight now. The Germans, while they still lose often on Pavlov's, are coming up with creative tactics that often catch the Soviets off guard and push them to the brink of defeat.
Secondly, gameplay changes increasing sway, decreasing zoom, etc... will make players more capzone-oriented. Players in Ostfront learned quickly on maps like Kryukovo that spawning as a Soviet and sniping at the Germans on the hill was fairly useless--because making a kill at that range was extremely difficult, and by the time you managed to pick off one German, three spawn waves would already have reinforced them. It was far more beneficial to push forward, toss grenades into the cap, taking the Germans on from close range. Not so in RO2--obtaining torso shots on a target at 150m is fairly easy, so snipe away... who cares about cap zones?
Automatic weapons. Even just three Mkbs on Apartments and Station are absolutely devastating. No need to say more here.
Apartments, perhaps, cannot be saved. The other maps? Once the new year rolls around and the first gameplay-oriented patches start arriving, I anticipate that gameplay on those beautiful, real-world-based maps will become far more intellectual.:IS2:
Finally, people are starting to figure out the maps. Fallen Fighters is starting to be a real contest. Germans are putting up more of a fight on Pavlov's. Remember--classic Ostfront maps were around for YEARS allowing people to master them. RO2's maps have only been around for... four months. I'll just say my hopes are high!
I also see nothing wrong with the setting of Stalingrad. The steppes of the Ukraine and the blasted plains around Kursk have their particular brand of romance--and the bloody sewers and shattered ruins of Stalingrad have theirs. Once the gameplay is perfected, close quarters fighting will have the level of nail-biting tension and grueling intensity that a game set in Stalingrad needs.
rofl, so if I confused two map names of a game I havent played for ~2 months then I have no playing experience?
According 2 steam I played 80 hrs + 65 hrs from beta, vs humans mind you (cant believe the bot grinding bull**** is still there lols).
i think what he meant, was that since you haven't played in two months, you have no idea how the game plays or how any of the patches are working. it's not the same game.
only eighty hours? must have had some serious problems getting the game working on your computer to have that few hours in game.
Friend of mine who is big CoD fan actually liked few RO2 maps, especially Barracks. He totally hated RO:O because of large and open areas. So yes, TWI wanted to design game for CoD crowd and they are succeed in this.
Too bad that he played 20 hours in total RO2 and switch over to BF3/MW3 immediately when those came out. Is he going to come back to RO2? Nope.
Too bad that he played 20 hours in total RO2 and switch over to BF3/MW3 immediately when those came out. Is he going to come back to RO2? Nope.
Have to disagree, maps have much to do with this gun n run gameplay (as much has to do the gameplay itself, bandaging, no sway, fighting with holes in your stomach, etc)
We are forced to very rigid ways to attack/defend, and if you try to get creative you are hailed with a big bucket of empty map (like the left flank in Barrack or both flanks in Spartknova) or the terrible WARNING, PROTECTED AREA issue.
Even though maps are quite big in a factical sense, much of the terrain is unnacesseble, forbiden or simply innadecuate to tactical use.
Insted of it, we have to go through the designed waypoints, no thinking, just shooting.
We are forced to very rigid ways to attack/defend, and if you try to get creative you are hailed with a big bucket of empty map (like the left flank in Barrack or both flanks in Spartknova) or the terrible WARNING, PROTECTED AREA issue.
Even though maps are quite big in a factical sense, much of the terrain is unnacesseble, forbiden or simply innadecuate to tactical use.
Insted of it, we have to go through the designed waypoints, no thinking, just shooting.
Its probably already been stated in this thread, but no the problems are not all map based.
Larger maps have the added benefit of hiding many of this games fatal flaws ( fatal from the realism perspective ). Snap to Iron sights with one button ( IS button ) from full run does not matter as much, because I personally can snap stop and shoot a target at 100, and all the way up to my longest snap shot of ~193M headshot on a prone target. But beyond 200 it gets ridiculously hard.
People in general being able ( and better off ) running around like headless chickens is something that large maps counteract. The tactic just doesnt work there. But that doesnt mean it is magically removed from the game. Get close to those hostiles in ogledow and voila, its back to good old broken as hell HOS.
Larger maps have the added benefit of hiding many of this games fatal flaws ( fatal from the realism perspective ). Snap to Iron sights with one button ( IS button ) from full run does not matter as much, because I personally can snap stop and shoot a target at 100, and all the way up to my longest snap shot of ~193M headshot on a prone target. But beyond 200 it gets ridiculously hard.
People in general being able ( and better off ) running around like headless chickens is something that large maps counteract. The tactic just doesnt work there. But that doesnt mean it is magically removed from the game. Get close to those hostiles in ogledow and voila, its back to good old broken as hell HOS.
I think, the maps are not sooo bad, which we have now. (OK, with the time its getting boring, to play the maps over and over again).
But there are some design errors, which take down the "fun of war".
Take Spartanovka. It would be a real cool map, if it was designed from a real officer.
Housing 1 and Housing 2 are completely redicoulus. I say, that there are trenches, but most of them are totally useless, because you have max. 5 m open space before them. There are loundry hanging around. Tell me one soldier who will not put it away to make hinmself a bigger field of fire? Which officer will construct such trenches, behind houses?
Thats stupid and sad. Take Spartanovka, open the field a bit more, maybe from church to Housing 1 wir more trenches and 100m attacking place (a little bit, like Basovka). Thats war, not such stupid things.
Just my 2 cents.
But there are some design errors, which take down the "fun of war".
Take Spartanovka. It would be a real cool map, if it was designed from a real officer.
Housing 1 and Housing 2 are completely redicoulus. I say, that there are trenches, but most of them are totally useless, because you have max. 5 m open space before them. There are loundry hanging around. Tell me one soldier who will not put it away to make hinmself a bigger field of fire? Which officer will construct such trenches, behind houses?
Thats stupid and sad. Take Spartanovka, open the field a bit more, maybe from church to Housing 1 wir more trenches and 100m attacking place (a little bit, like Basovka). Thats war, not such stupid things.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited:
I actually like Spartanovka, but if you really stop to think about it, yeah you are right. Trenches in between the houses are just awkward. To me it would have made much more sense to open up some or most of the houses (are we trying to protect the peasants' property rights???). Sure it would change the gameplay on the map a little but I think in a better way.
I do think it is meant to be the whole Stalingrad campaign and that has to include all the areas in the path of the German Army's advance up to and including the city itself.
No need to limit your imagination as far as map types
This ^
Do a little reading and you will discover just how much variety is available to map makers.
Nothing a couple of well placed rounds of artillery can't take care of.
I suspect the awkward placing of the trenches is exactly because of the destructible environment surrounding them. If all the buildings are cleared on account of excessive arty, then it would basically be a long distance fight between church and town hall and everybody moving in the middle to cap being massacred (not unlike Fallenfighters actually).
I do understand that the maps aren't the only problem, I just think it's a pretty big factor. While they are made from realistic photos and images and the lighting is damn sexy, it is kind of awkward in terms of engament distances and the spawns are kinda close to the combat.
Who knows maybe the new realism mode they're working on it'll fix all that. But I still miss going far distances.
Who knows maybe the new realism mode they're working on it'll fix all that. But I still miss going far distances.