How will Pistols be handled?

[Kriegson]

One thing to be aware of is that realistically speaking, pistols are terrible weapons. They are last resort weapons, carried because they are compact and light, not (in a proper combat situation) because they are necessarily deadly. They are also very (relatively) inaccurate.

Everything a pistol can do, a long gun can do better.

Now I'm not trying to make a "Realism > gameplay" thing here, but with some of the awesome tweaks they are making, such as weapons of different caliber having intrinsic amounts of damage (The .308 will always do more damage than the 9mm) and the accuracy working in that "Wherever the barrel is pointing, the bullets will go" pistols could be kind of ****e unless in the hands of a proper expert.

 

[mrsirr]

One thing to be aware of is that realistically speaking, pistols are terrible weapons. They are last resort weapons, carried because they are compact and light, not (in a proper combat situation) because they are necessarily deadly. They are also very (relatively) inaccurate.

Everything a pistol can do, a long gun can do better.

Now I'm not trying to make a "Realism > gameplay" thing here, but with some of the awesome tweaks they are making, such as weapons of different caliber having intrinsic amounts of damage (The .308 will always do more damage than the 9mm) and the accuracy working in that "Wherever the barrel is pointing, the bullets will go" pistols could be kind of ****e unless in the hands of a proper expert.

Yeah they said in this game they won't be doing that thing where pistols inflict more damage than rifles, not even the automatic ones; I'm curious to see exactly what sets them apart in this game.

Pistols are better with conceilment, so obviously they'll be less cumbersome. Maybe they'll get a whole lot more ammo.

 

[Azukki]

One thing to be aware of is that realistically speaking, pistols are terrible weapons. They are last resort weapons, carried because they are compact and light, not (in a proper combat situation) because they are necessarily deadly. They are also very (relatively) inaccurate.

Everything a pistol can do, a long gun can do better.

Now I'm not trying to make a "Realism > gameplay" thing here, but with some of the awesome tweaks they are making, such as weapons of different caliber having intrinsic amounts of damage (The .308 will always do more damage than the 9mm) and the accuracy working in that "Wherever the barrel is pointing, the bullets will go" pistols could be kind of ****e unless in the hands of a proper expert.

That certainly is true that, aside from size/weight, conventional pistols are very inferior to conventional longarms with conventional ammo. I actually have some 308 ammo that's weaker than 9mm, though. In the PC gamer article about kf2's guns, they mentioned that they're going to make intermediate caliber rifles like the bullpup properly stronger than pistols like the 9mm.

Low size/weight means that it's possible to carry lots of pistols at once if you want. New york reloads are handy, but still inferior to commando, who's got even more rounds loaded, and only between two guns.

Maybe they'll nerf commando's reserve of ammo, and make it so that commando has the spike damage of automatic rifles, but gunslinger has the continuity of generous spare ammo. The tortoise and the hare, and whatnot.

But, I imagine they're going to do it again like in KF1, though, where the stronger calibers are exaggerated into usefulness. That's to be expected from .44m and .50ae in the media, but the .45's advantage over the 9mm in KF1 was totally ridiculous.

 

[Zerginfestor]

One thing to be aware of is that realistically speaking, pistols are terrible weapons. They are last resort weapons, carried because they are compact and light, not (in a proper combat situation) because they are necessarily deadly. They are also very (relatively) inaccurate.

Everything a pistol can do, a long gun can do better.

Now I'm not trying to make a "Realism > gameplay" thing here, but with some of the awesome tweaks they are making, such as weapons of different caliber having intrinsic amounts of damage (The .308 will always do more damage than the 9mm) and the accuracy working in that "Wherever the barrel is pointing, the bullets will go" pistols could be kind of ****e unless in the hands of a proper expert.

Are you talking about HANDGUNS in general, or just semi-auto Pistols and not Revolvers?

Exaggeration on the .44? I'm pretty sure it's underrated in KF1 in terms of damage.

 

[nejcooo]

New perks Will totaly change gameplay. Shame that they didn't decide for 10 players servers by default

 

[mrsirr]

Exaggeration on the .44? I'm pretty sure it's underrated in KF1 in terms of damage.

I dunno, I mean, it did more damage than almost any rifle.
Of course the crossbow in that game does 300 damage so there's that. . .
Although I suppose it depends on how you feel about terminal ballistics.
If you believe in all that energy dump and what not then the rifles should mostly do more damage.
If you believe that the main mechanism is crushed tissue, than handgun rounds are at least as lethal, if not more, than rifle rounds.

 

[Zerginfestor]

I dunno, I mean, it did more damage than almost any rifle.
Of course the crossbow in that game does 300 damage so there's that. . .
Although I suppose it depends on how you feel about terminal ballistics.
If you believe in all that energy dump and what not then the rifles should mostly do more damage.
If you believe that the main mechanism is crushed tissue, than handgun rounds are at least as lethal, if not more, than rifle rounds.

Oh I don't mind, it's just the assumption the user placed was a bit off because he's trying to use 'realism' in a game about clones that eat flesh and mutated. Also, seeing as the game does use some 'foot' measurement, most of his claims about 'accuracy' are already off. Just saying, a .44 magnum is really accurate when using standard hunting rounds at 100 yards, so basically 300 feet distance, more than enough to handle the game's distances. Damage wise, maybe we should just up the zeds health and thus up the weapons damages to the point they're basically doable? IDK.

 

[Azukki]

44 magnum is extremely powerful... for a handgun, in 1971.
The media gets bored during that ellipsis, and tunes out.

Exaggeration on the .44? I'm pretty sure it's underrated in KF1 in terms of damage.

In KF1, the m29 did 61% more damage than the FN FAL.
In reality, a shot from a FAL has roughly 85% more energy than a m29, depending on loads. Energy isn't the full story of damage, not by a long shot, but it's often a pretty decent general indicator.
Better than assuming a cylindrical wound of crushed tissue based on penetration and penetrator diameter, that's for sure. It's well known that some conventional handgun wounds can be like that, but rifle wounds can do much more complicated things.

Spoiler!

This blabbering about ballistic realism is comparative to other guns, not the effect on zeds. Obviously a regular guy with a strong grip and no junk would not be able to shrug off a 44 in the heart like a clot does. And that's absolutely fine; the game has big guns because big guns are cool, and it's gotta have some challenge. Coolism and gameplay are big priorities. But the general comparisons between those big guns can potentially be realistic without detracting from the coolism and balance.

Then again, you can shoot the air vaguely near a KF1 clot and still do the same amount of damage, so I guess it equals out a bit.
Hopefully KF2 will reward more for center mass shot placement. Keep headshots too, though, with much higher damage, but as a separate high risk/reward target; missing the brain slightly is usually a total miss, missing the heart slightly is usually still devastating.

 

[mrsirr]

Oh I don't mind, it's just the assumption the user placed was a bit off because he's trying to use 'realism' in a game about clones that eat flesh and mutated. Also, seeing as the game does use some 'foot' measurement, most of his claims about 'accuracy' are already off. Just saying, a .44 magnum is really accurate when using standard hunting rounds at 100 yards, so basically 300 feet distance, more than enough to handle the game's distances. Damage wise, maybe we should just up the zeds health and thus up the weapons damages to the point they're basically doable? IDK.

Well the devs did say the damage would be based more in reality, so speculating using real world terminal ballistics sounds about right. I think all of the guns save for shotguns are perfectly accurate in-game.

This blabbering about ballistic realism is comparative to other guns, not the effect on zeds. Obviously a regular guy with a strong grip and no junk would not be able to shrug off a 44 in the heart like a clot does.

This is all I ever wanted out of a game for terminal ballistics. I don't care if everything is perfectly realistic but ffs don't make a .45 handgun more lethal and an AR15

In reality, a shot from a FAL has roughly 85% more energy than a m29, depending on loads. Energy isn't the full story of damage, not by a long shot, but it's often a pretty decent general indicator.
Better than assuming a cylindrical wound of crushed tissue based on penetration and penetrator diameter, that's for sure. It's well known that some conventional handgun wounds can be like that, but rifle wounds can do much more complicated things.

Ahh, I personally use tissue crushed as a measurement, the energy itself rarely does enough to count it as a wounding mechanism.

 

[Shining Wolf]

The issue with the 9mm is that it's a free and incredibly powerful trash clearing weapon for sharps. The weapon is meant to be replaced early on by every class, not be their bread and butter. Level 6 sharps spawn with the capacity to easily take out any zed, regardless of the difficulty, right out of the box with both the 9mm and crossbow. If the weightless 9mm didn't get perk bonuses for any class, then sharps would at least be forced to make one purchase and sacrifice some space and cash for their crowd control weapon.

Given that a lot of balancing issues in KF are from weapon scaling not being quite right, I'm guessing that Tripwire is going to focus more on how weapons and perks handle in when everyone's maxed. Normal mode is also being made to be more difficult as the default mode, which gives me hope that the game will be stupidly difficult at higher difficulties.

 

[mrsirr]

The issue with the 9mm is that it's a free and incredibly powerful trash clearing weapon for sharps. The weapon is meant to be replaced early on by every class, not be their bread and butter. Level 6 sharps spawn with the capacity to easily take out any zed, regardless of the difficulty, right out of the box with both the 9mm and crossbow. If the weightless 9mm didn't get perk bonuses for any class, then sharps would at least be forced to make one purchase and sacrifice some space and cash for their crowd control weapon.

Given that a lot of balancing issues in KF are from weapon scaling not being quite right, I'm guessing that Tripwire is going to focus more on how weapons and perks handle in when everyone's maxed. Normal mode is also being made to be more difficult as the default mode, which gives me hope that the game will be stupidly difficult at higher difficulties.

Yeah I don't know if perks wil still get bonuses for the starting handgun which I assume will be the same 9mm M9. Maybe the gunslinger, but it'd be wierd for everyone to start with the gunslinger's tier 1 weapon.
I'll say this: This far into developement, I'm thoroughly confused.

 

[pie1055]

Starting equipment: Knife, Syringe, Welder.

Allow players to spend a small amount of dosh at the trader for their first weapon before the first wave starts (2 minutes/ everyone hits a ready button).

 

[Althamus]

You're all assuming that KF2 will be KF1.1

KF2 could be entirely different for all that we know.

If it were me, I'd make a gunslinger halfway to a zerker. They have a bit of range, but also more manouverability and speed than someone carrying an M99.

Or change things so that %weight carried affects movement speed more. That way, you wouldn't almost always take as many guns as you can carry - you might take as many guns as you need for the job and manouver better instead.

 

[moleculo]

You're all assuming that KF2 will be KF1.1

KF2 could be entirely different for all that we know.

You know everyone's secretly talking about KF1 here That kind of makes sense considering we know nothing about KF2

If it were me, I'd make a gunslinger halfway to a zerker. They have a bit of range, but also more manouverability and speed than someone carrying an M99.

Or change things so that %weight carried affects movement speed more. That way, you wouldn't almost always take as many guns as you can carry - you might take as many guns as you need for the job and manouver better instead.

I love the idea of making gunslinger the middle ground between zerks and other gun-wielders. That way he wouldn't be just a "supercool" wannabe-commando who can carry 2 GUNS(!!!!) Making encumbrance matter would also probably be a good addition to loadout strategies, me thinks

 

[larkstongues42]

Flinchlocking a Scrake removes all threat of the Scrake.

Stunning does this much more. Actually flinch locking can much more dangerous than stunning. Bad teammates, husks, sirens, rudefasts jumping around corners. You're stuck together with that scrake, sure you can move back but you can't pull out your knife and dodge stuff like with stunning. Stunning is a LOT more powerful in actual gameplay than the testmap where is doesn't really matter. Try holding a side by yourself, using a off perk m14 to miniflinch a scrake and then 4 gores round that corner while you're half way in (queue lewd joke here). Flinch locking does NOT remove all threat from scrakes. I'm not trying to be rude here, but how many hours do you have in KF?

 

[mrsirr]

Yeah flinchlocking is kindof delicate.
Like, you could get really good at it, but there's always a threat of horrible gruesome failure resulting in horrible gruesome death.

 

[Zombie Overlord]

Stunning does this much more. Actually flinch locking can much more dangerous than stunning. Bad teammates, husks, sirens, rudefasts jumping around corners. You're stuck together with that scrake, sure you can move back but you can't pull out your knife and dodge stuff like with stunning. Stunning is a LOT more powerful in actual gameplay than the testmap where is doesn't really matter. Try holding a side by yourself, using a off perk m14 to miniflinch a scrake and then 4 gores round that corner while you're half way in (queue lewd joke here). Flinch locking does NOT remove all threat from scrakes. I'm not trying to be rude here, but how many hours do you have in KF?

This^


Flinchlocks are dangerous risks. Most intermediate players know of it and use it primarily with the katana. It is a useful mechanic but it requires constant use of it until the scrake is dead otherwise it will usually just rage charge you and you'll be dead very fast.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

@Larks: As a chronic flinch locker; <3

Yeah flinchlocking is kindof delicate.
Like, you could get really good at it, but there's always a threat of horrible gruesome failure resulting in horrible gruesome death.

Demos are the worst for it. You see that Scrake, ypu get pumped, do everything right and you still end up getting sawn in half, because some demo naded it while it was out of your sight and derped the hitbox. Had a game once where a demo did that to every Scrake that spawned, simply because he thought that flinch locking was a hack, and it was his cival duty as a gamer to break that hack in any way he could. Good guy.

 

[larkstongues42]

@Larks: As a chronic flinch locker; <3

Hey, FleshJack. x3

Also, no flincher should have to suffer a bad demo. haha

 

[Andronomos]

This is a massive disappointment. Sounds like ScrN's gunslinger and that perk is the embodiment what is wrong with all custom servers ever. I really hope you at least try to make this not spam to win.

Please explain more. I run a Scrn Balance Server and Gunslinger is actually a fun perk, not my favorite but fun. Though I also have the Doom Zeds installed so things are a lot tougher.

What is so wrong with it that you feel the way you do?