How to WINterwald?
- Thread starter danh
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Aha, danh. So you created this awesome map but face the difficulty that some players give you a hard time to win your own map? tz tz tz tzzzz
A bit difficult for me to give my ideas from an attacking point of view right now, because I don't have access to the map and don't remember all capzones by hard. So this will be purely out of my memory (and I am old and married, so don't expect too much, lol).
First capzone is purely to slow down the German advance. A good russian team will place there sniper on their right (German's left) side, supported by an MG, because the defenders have the advantage of higher ground combined with a huge field of fire. Russian rifleman are usually on the German's right flank.
In my eyes, Germans should simply throw all bodies they have into the first capzone to cap it quickly. If charged fast enough and the russian team unable to set up a good defense, the first capzone is falling quickly.
Usually, the russians have 2-3 men on the German's left flank on a ridge with a broken tank (close to the German spawn then). I have seen 30 Germans running uphill without noticing that there are still Russians in that area. That's not good, bullets also kill when you are hit in the back
The village is a bit tougher to cap because a competent russian team will have at least 2-3 semi's/auto's in the first building at the border of the capzone. If the Germans have captured that building, the closest way into the capzone is clear.
In General Winterwald is a great map to show the advantages of the attackers and the advantages of the defenders. If the defenders have their assault troops inside the first capzones, they can effectively "hug" the enemy, blocking the Germans pretty effectively and slowing down their attack. Supported by MGs, Riflemen and their sniper, the German squads will be slow as they have to fight off the closer threat (PPSHs behind the fence/inside buildings), while they are a pretty easy target for MGs and Riflemen in the back (remember, a slowly moving target is easier to pick out over distance).
The Germans however face a huge advantage once they started capping a zone. Reason is: Because the Russians charge into the capzone from a higher ground, they are actually presenting themselves to the Germans that are inside the capzone and their support troops in the back. I have seen Russian charges ending up with 75% losses when trying to rush the village and stop the capping. (once the Russians are forced to leave their good defensive positions, they are very vulnerable).
Anyways, back to strategy: After the village is taken, the fight for the hills and woods is determined by flanking, flanking, flanking. Spawning on Squad Leaders is very helpful. A frontal German attack usually ends up in disaster because the Russians can set up MGs and rifleman and create a "wall of bullets" since they have a huge field of fire. Sneaking into the sides with your SLs leading is the tactic of choice. Think of the German sickle attack tactics of WW 2. Throw your forces either from one side or both side, flanking the enemy's strong points. As strong as the defensive lines are when attacked frontal, they are very vulnerable when attacked from the sides or even better, from behind. Because the Russians are suddenly again forced to attack the capzones in order to defend it. See how I did that? It ain't rocket science
Most difficult on this map (for me at least) are the AA guns. The fighting can become very chaotic because the capzones are smaller and there are plenty of positions to defend from. However, also the attackers can use the terrain very well to set up positions for covering fire. Usually the last 2-3 capzones are a bit like WW I, meaning: 2 sides in a stalemate and the attackers with the disadvantage that they have to charge. And again, it ain't rocket science: USE SMOKE. I don't know why so many players do not understand how to use smoke. For beginners: You want to block the opponing teams view, not your own. It's actually easy, well it should be easy, to understand that "the closer the smoke is towards the defenders, the more you block their field of view, while you keep you increase your own teams field of view.
A last hint for the Russians when it comes to the AA guns: Use smoke! No joke, use smoke defensively. Throw it close to the German choke points. You'll be surprised how often the attackers are mistaking Russian smoke to be their own smoke. If you have a well-placed machinegun, coordinate a SL to throw smoke TOWARDS the Germans. You'll be surprised how many Germans will run straight through the smoke as they think it's helpful for them. What then actually happens is that the machinegunner sees the movement in the smoke before the enemy inside the smoke sees the machinegunner. Result: ratatatatata
Hope that makes sense to some at least.
A bit difficult for me to give my ideas from an attacking point of view right now, because I don't have access to the map and don't remember all capzones by hard. So this will be purely out of my memory (and I am old and married, so don't expect too much, lol).
First capzone is purely to slow down the German advance. A good russian team will place there sniper on their right (German's left) side, supported by an MG, because the defenders have the advantage of higher ground combined with a huge field of fire. Russian rifleman are usually on the German's right flank.
In my eyes, Germans should simply throw all bodies they have into the first capzone to cap it quickly. If charged fast enough and the russian team unable to set up a good defense, the first capzone is falling quickly.
Usually, the russians have 2-3 men on the German's left flank on a ridge with a broken tank (close to the German spawn then). I have seen 30 Germans running uphill without noticing that there are still Russians in that area. That's not good, bullets also kill when you are hit in the back
The village is a bit tougher to cap because a competent russian team will have at least 2-3 semi's/auto's in the first building at the border of the capzone. If the Germans have captured that building, the closest way into the capzone is clear.
In General Winterwald is a great map to show the advantages of the attackers and the advantages of the defenders. If the defenders have their assault troops inside the first capzones, they can effectively "hug" the enemy, blocking the Germans pretty effectively and slowing down their attack. Supported by MGs, Riflemen and their sniper, the German squads will be slow as they have to fight off the closer threat (PPSHs behind the fence/inside buildings), while they are a pretty easy target for MGs and Riflemen in the back (remember, a slowly moving target is easier to pick out over distance).
The Germans however face a huge advantage once they started capping a zone. Reason is: Because the Russians charge into the capzone from a higher ground, they are actually presenting themselves to the Germans that are inside the capzone and their support troops in the back. I have seen Russian charges ending up with 75% losses when trying to rush the village and stop the capping. (once the Russians are forced to leave their good defensive positions, they are very vulnerable).
Anyways, back to strategy: After the village is taken, the fight for the hills and woods is determined by flanking, flanking, flanking. Spawning on Squad Leaders is very helpful. A frontal German attack usually ends up in disaster because the Russians can set up MGs and rifleman and create a "wall of bullets" since they have a huge field of fire. Sneaking into the sides with your SLs leading is the tactic of choice. Think of the German sickle attack tactics of WW 2. Throw your forces either from one side or both side, flanking the enemy's strong points. As strong as the defensive lines are when attacked frontal, they are very vulnerable when attacked from the sides or even better, from behind. Because the Russians are suddenly again forced to attack the capzones in order to defend it. See how I did that? It ain't rocket science
Most difficult on this map (for me at least) are the AA guns. The fighting can become very chaotic because the capzones are smaller and there are plenty of positions to defend from. However, also the attackers can use the terrain very well to set up positions for covering fire. Usually the last 2-3 capzones are a bit like WW I, meaning: 2 sides in a stalemate and the attackers with the disadvantage that they have to charge. And again, it ain't rocket science: USE SMOKE. I don't know why so many players do not understand how to use smoke. For beginners: You want to block the opponing teams view, not your own. It's actually easy, well it should be easy, to understand that "the closer the smoke is towards the defenders, the more you block their field of view, while you keep you increase your own teams field of view.
A last hint for the Russians when it comes to the AA guns: Use smoke! No joke, use smoke defensively. Throw it close to the German choke points. You'll be surprised how often the attackers are mistaking Russian smoke to be their own smoke. If you have a well-placed machinegun, coordinate a SL to throw smoke TOWARDS the Germans. You'll be surprised how many Germans will run straight through the smoke as they think it's helpful for them. What then actually happens is that the machinegunner sees the movement in the smoke before the enemy inside the smoke sees the machinegunner. Result: ratatatatata
Hope that makes sense to some at least.
oh ermmm...
to be honest i find this one of the hardest maps, which is a good thing. (i play sl ALOT)
Attacking wise i just try to hug as much cover as i can and pop smoke when ever i need to cover any open ground, and i push forward abit then dig in to allow people to spawn on me rather than working thier way all the way back. i also try to never use the gullies that head ina central direction only use those that use a sidewides direction, kinda like only ever east-west not north-south if you know what i mean. and no smg! only use semis!
Defending, is a little bit easier but you have to accept that the first 3 caps will be taken very quickly and theres not much you can do about it. again hug the flanks and watch the brows of the rises and down into the gullies. if you can make the germans walk over the tops of the hills youll have a prefect killing zone with plenty of targets. other than that just lie low and stay in the grass or against a tree.
i really struggle with placing arty on this map, as either team. as theres very few direct lines of site from cap to cap (and the fog!) the marks often end up to far back or too close to be of any use and the times you do get a good mark on a cap the enemy are never in that area! center of the first village is a good one for that.
i basicaly have no tatics i just try to stay alive
to be honest i find this one of the hardest maps, which is a good thing. (i play sl ALOT)
Attacking wise i just try to hug as much cover as i can and pop smoke when ever i need to cover any open ground, and i push forward abit then dig in to allow people to spawn on me rather than working thier way all the way back. i also try to never use the gullies that head ina central direction only use those that use a sidewides direction, kinda like only ever east-west not north-south if you know what i mean. and no smg! only use semis!
Defending, is a little bit easier but you have to accept that the first 3 caps will be taken very quickly and theres not much you can do about it. again hug the flanks and watch the brows of the rises and down into the gullies. if you can make the germans walk over the tops of the hills youll have a prefect killing zone with plenty of targets. other than that just lie low and stay in the grass or against a tree.
i really struggle with placing arty on this map, as either team. as theres very few direct lines of site from cap to cap (and the fog!) the marks often end up to far back or too close to be of any use and the times you do get a good mark on a cap the enemy are never in that area! center of the first village is a good one for that.
i basicaly have no tatics i just try to stay alive
Aha, danh. So you created this awesome map but face the difficulty that some players give you a hard time to win your own map? tz tz tz tzzzz
I want to see what everyone's strategy is. I hear a lot of people say its hard but I know all the shortcut and tricks so I can give some hints.
Spoken like a true soldier!
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I just played a game today to see how the Germans played. They were doing well up until the Trenches objective or F.
The best formation to attack F is to use a pincer formation. You split the forces into two. You take two squad leaders left and two right and throw smokes to blind enemy. Your commander can smoke the middle to distract the enemy. Use recon and clear out the Russian strongpoints. Place the MG's on the west flank and the north east flank and aim towards the hill the Allies go over to enter the trenches. As the MG suppress the allies, you have to send your two teams into the point at the same time.
The key point to this strategy is to place smoke along the border of the trenches. This way the Allies won't know where you are attacking from.
Instead today I see the entire German team charge through the middle and they get wiped out by mg fire. So they try again but this time they crawl up nice and slow and guess what...artillery wipes them out.
The best formation to attack F is to use a pincer formation. You split the forces into two. You take two squad leaders left and two right and throw smokes to blind enemy. Your commander can smoke the middle to distract the enemy. Use recon and clear out the Russian strongpoints. Place the MG's on the west flank and the north east flank and aim towards the hill the Allies go over to enter the trenches. As the MG suppress the allies, you have to send your two teams into the point at the same time.
The key point to this strategy is to place smoke along the border of the trenches. This way the Allies won't know where you are attacking from.
Instead today I see the entire German team charge through the middle and they get wiped out by mg fire. So they try again but this time they crawl up nice and slow and guess what...artillery wipes them out.
Play Allied.....
It's their map to lose. I've yet to see Axis win the latest version in Classic, they've come close though. It's still fun playing either side, at least I find it so, it's the many small battles that are fun, not the victory/loss.
Seriously, whoever controls the flanks controls the map and it takes far fewer Allied to do this than for Axis. Whoever controls a flank can pick off the enemy as they rush back to the battle from spawn, forcing them to stall and lay back, allowing their teammates to push the caps.
As has been said, once Allied start attacking a cap, they're at the disadvantage, it's better for them to dig in farther back and wait in ambush.
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I've only ever played Russian on this map on both classic and realism. I've lost as Russian on both game types as well and that was usually due to the German side not stopping. F and E, i think called the woods and the bunkers, can be easily defended but when Germans get in there it's a massacre. Russians will often not know which objective to go for and get torn up in the middle where there's a semi road.
At the final objectives the Russians usually loose when German troops flank on the right side (right side from Russian point of view) and gain the higher ground stopping any Russians from actually getting to their objectives. It is a long way to run from the Russian spawn to the final objective.
In saying that whenever I do see the Germans win I usually just assume its down to the simple fact that they were communicating and we wernt.
At the final objectives the Russians usually loose when German troops flank on the right side (right side from Russian point of view) and gain the higher ground stopping any Russians from actually getting to their objectives. It is a long way to run from the Russian spawn to the final objective.
In saying that whenever I do see the Germans win I usually just assume its down to the simple fact that they were communicating and we wernt.
That flank is a tough one. Once the Germans have it, it is really hard to get into the camp. It is very crucial for defense. I designed the camp so that the Germans can attack from almost all points. This gives really high replay-ability and it also forces the Russians to not just sit inside the house in the middle.
A huge degree of aggression is required on this map as an attacker. All the caps are, alone, reasonably easy to capture. But the time limit is very tight, and if you delay at all you'll simply run out of time. The axis really have to strike out between the Allied spawn and cap zone. There are many areas of the map that are good for using arty/mg's to cut the defenders off from their spawn.
As a defender you have to be equally aggressive to stand firm. Many of the best defensive spots are tricky to take back if the Germans get into them, so don't lose them in the first place! The first two objectives have nice defensive points at the German edge, but it's very tricky to get to them once they're in German hands. Also the entrance to the third objective, the planes on the approach to F etc.
Someone mentioned the difficulty of placing arty spots? My advice is to spot the trees. You can use them to place arty spots on the ground out of your line of sight. Also plan ahead as a defender. If the current objective is about to fall, spot for the next one already! The final task of any SL defending an objective is to spot it for arty before they fall back to the next objective.
As a defender you have to be equally aggressive to stand firm. Many of the best defensive spots are tricky to take back if the Germans get into them, so don't lose them in the first place! The first two objectives have nice defensive points at the German edge, but it's very tricky to get to them once they're in German hands. Also the entrance to the third objective, the planes on the approach to F etc.
Someone mentioned the difficulty of placing arty spots? My advice is to spot the trees. You can use them to place arty spots on the ground out of your line of sight. Also plan ahead as a defender. If the current objective is about to fall, spot for the next one already! The final task of any SL defending an objective is to spot it for arty before they fall back to the next objective.
Allies tend to lose most of their soldiers at F and C. They need to watch their reinforcements during these two objectives. The reason they lose so much is because they are running from higher terrain to lower terrain. This allows the Axis to easily spray MG fire in that direction and kill them as they run down hill.