How to balance MGs and make them overall more desirable class.

[Jippofin]

Are you saying that MG34 should be able to fire unsupported standing, or are you saying that you should be able to aim through sights even when you can not deploy bipod?

First is next to impossible to physically do to, second is annoying yes, but also quite realistic. I personally dislike the way BF-series handles the MG's alot, RO2 is way more mature and realistic. To be able to fire in all positions would be akin to the BF's.
Trust me I've died more than few times because of the funky deployment system. It does need fixing so that the weapon doesn't on and off from the sight picture, and it does need to be able to deploy on furniture and other obstacles with ease. But to firing off-hand or in odd angles, I'd rather not. I like how the MG is in ways superior to other classes, and in ways worse. That is the salt of it, and nerfing the deployment would really take the fun out of it. Next thing is we will have medics with MG's gunning and running: No thanks!!

 

[Wookie87]

4) Russians get a better machine gun than the DP-28 as they level up? As it stands, the MG-34 is marginally better than the DP. As the MG levels up, it gets double, then something like triple the ammo capacity while the DP is stuck with the same drums. No me gusta.

Hm, did the Russians really expand on the DP-28? Or atleast do any innovations with it to make comparable upgrades to the MG34 upgrades? Would be nice, though.

 

[Skanvak]

My point of view is that realistic behaviour of weapon should prevail on balance (Balance is bad for gameplay).

If it is possible to fire from shoulder a LMG and was part of the normal soldier training of the time then it should be in the game, period. I have hated when in DoD source they took the bi-pod from the Bar rifle.

I think that soldier do anything that is possible to survive. And if you study all the effect I am sure it will be balanced (time to shoulder, recoil and surely exhustion if not on proper support).

 

[Josef Nader]

Are you saying that MG34 should be able to fire unsupported standing, or are you saying that you should be able to aim through sights even when you can not deploy bipod?

MG-42, but you get the idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch3Fv3DBrF0-yVPsvs

It might be next to impossible to ADS standing shoulder fire, but from crouch, or if you have some way to brace it like a regular rifle. I don't want to be able to move and ADS, heavens no, just be able to set up an impromptu firing position anywhere and everywhere within reason. Being stuck to low walls and windows sucks.

Hm, did the Russians really expand on the DP-28? Or atleast do any innovations with it to make comparable upgrades to the MG34 upgrades? Would be nice, though.

The Maxim-Tokarev, maybe? Idk that much about gun history, but this seems like the only suitable replacement for the DP-28...

 

[Jippofin]

MG-42, but you get the idea:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch3Fv3DBrF0-yVPsvs[/URL]

It might be next to impossible to ADS standing shoulder fire, but from crouch, or if you have some way to brace it like a regular rifle. I don't want to be able to move and ADS, heavens no, just be able to set up an impromptu firing position anywhere and everywhere within reason. Being stuck to low walls and windows sucks...

What we have in the video is what we have in the game now. As you can see he is very inaccurate and unable to control the weapon, just like in game at the moment. I was talking about aimed fire, which would be more or less impossible.

I do agree that the deployment system should be more consistent and reliable.

 

[Josef Nader]

What we have in the video is what we have in the game now. As you can see he is very inaccurate and unable to control the weapon, just like in game at the moment. I was talking about aimed fire, which would be more or less impossible.

I do agree that the deployment system should be more consistent and reliable.

Ah, yes. I agree that being able to ADS while standing would be silly, but while crouched (and still) OR while the weapon-bracing mechanic is in effect would be useful in overcoming the CANNOT DEPLOY HERE bugbear we're all wrestling with.

 

[Sight]

ADS while standing with a MG34 and especially DP28 is not completely out of this world.... it can be done, ofc not to control a sector for several hours but in emergency cases the gun can be shouldered and fired way more accurate than hip-firing atm, especially the first shots.Recoil control under sustained fire will ofc not be anywhere near a supported/deployed MG which can lay down fire on a position over 1000meters away.Which can t be done in game atm either because the jumping recoil, like riding on a horse atm completely screws up sustained fire with any MG with any level.I am a MG hero already and level 30 MG34 but still this recoil makes this uncontrolable and not possible, heck it isn't even possible at medium ranges on small targets, like e.g. ppl in windows or just a head showing up because the recoil get s crazy after the first shots under sustained fire.

 

[Vesper11]

Make it drain stamina (a lot) while standing and (not as much) while crouching (cant use without stamina). This + huge recoil and sway will make mgs less desirable as auto rifles and assault weapon while giving the mger some survivability.

p.s. MG34 might as well drain stamine more than DP-28, being better mg, while being heavier. And even more stamina drain with additional ammo upgrades (which, I hope, will be removable).
p.p.s. It should also take more time to enter sights.

 

[Sight]

Just found another issue that gives MGer's a disadvantage.

When having the MG deployed and holding crouch to stay in cover and then press e.g. back or left to leave cover the player model exposes itself so one can get shot...

So basically you are under fire,want to change position but you can t because you ll expose yourself and will get shot ...

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

If the MG34 or DP28 were ever made to be shouldered ingame then they need to make sure the sway increases much faster than with the other weapons, thanks to the exhaustive effective of having to balance such a heavy weapon. Also the recoil will have to be quite severe, AVT40 like.

 

[Josef Nader]

If the MG34 or DP28 were ever made to be shouldered ingame then they need to make sure the sway increases much faster than with the other weapons, thanks to the exhaustive effective of having to balance such a heavy weapon. Also the recoil will have to be quite severe, AVT40 like.

Absolutely. These weapons are -not- designed for sustained, man-portable fire. I just want the option to defend myself in a pinch without having to rely on the hip firing that hits everything but what I'm trying to hit. I don't want lolrambo or loleasymode. I just want the ability to fend off an attacker without falling prey to CAN'T DEPLOY HERE.

 

[captain max707]

I would like it if there were more places to deploy that weren't obviously intended for a MG'er to set up. It's easy for people to watch certain windows or fences, but one of my favorite parts of RO1 was to find an unusual place to set up and then cut the enemy forces in half or cut off their reinforcements. It doesn't seem to be implemented as much here, although I still think MGs are a bunch of fun.

It also depends on the map, and as community maps start rolling out this should be less of a problem I would think.

 

[realninja]

almost everyone is a hero now ,so the lmgs dont supress ****

 

[Hoak]

IRL both DP-27 and MG-34 could be fired from shoulder when standing or kneeling. Ingame you can only hipfire. Adding this feature to the game would help balancing the weapons since DP-27s low ROF would make it a lot more controllable when firing it from shoulder.

However this isn't the biggest advantage this system would achieve. If MGs were handled like normal weapons they could take advantage of the excellent weapon support system this game has. MG players would no longer be required to deploy in middle of a window if they wanted to shoot accurate shots from inside a building. They could simply support the barrel agains the corner of the window, exposing far less of themselves to enemy soldiers.

Biggest issue with MG gunners ingame is that when they need to take accurate shots they need to expose themselves way too much and are often greeted by the "Cannot deploy here" message before being shot to pieces by opposing forces.

Here is example of firing MG42 from shoulder IRL:
MG42 Full Auto Belt Fed - Good Shooter - YouTube

TL;DR version:
Make it possible to fire MGs from shoulder. Make them have very bad recoil if the gun isn't supported by enviroment (like resting on wall, window frame etc). This would make the MGs far more versatile weapons and possible MG gunner positions much better hidden and less predictable. This would also negate the "Cannot deploy here" effect. Still keep bipod as the most stable firing platform.

edit: Forgot this one: Make shouldering MGs take significantly longer time than shouldering other weapons due to their weight. This combined with high recoil when shoulder firing should be enough to keep the MG rambos at bay.

I agree the MGs are so nerfed in RO2 as is TWI might as well take them out of the game... Where a well positiond MG42 should change the shape of game play with to its enormous fire volume, power and accuracy, it's little more then an aesthetic accessory to RO2, that is easily countered with a hand-gun or bayonet -- even DOD Source's MG42 is more capable then RO2's...

IRL these are powerful accurate weapons that are easier to carry and fire then some might assume from lore or assumptions of inexperienced shooters that were stunned by the recoil of Grandpa's .306 hunting rifle. To people that shoot regularly this is not unmanagable. An MG's weight amelorates recoil, and with a good fire position they make very effective rifles due to their long and heavy barrels.

 

[Jippofin]

MG in a good position changes the tide of the battle in game now. Just get 45 degrees of axis to the enemy avenue of approach and a single MG will stop enemy advance on that side of the map.

Biggest problem is that the game replicates combat pretty accurately and people do not know how to really use cover (in RL and in game). One should never position himself in windows, just for example. Neither should one never shoot towards enemy, but from sides. Here is where MG becomes essential. Leading targets is far easier with MG when shooting short bursts compensates for aiming errors: just lead a bit more and let them run into the bullets. 50 round belt means that one should be able to kill 10-15 enemies before reload, and before that no one is coming through. One should seek this kind of positions with firing distance of 100-150m.

On few maps this doesn't work, mainly because the environment isn't MG friendly and secondly because squad do not cover mg positions but play individual battles. But that is hardly the fault of the games MG modelling when fired, which (repeated ad nauseum) is spot on.

 

[PvtProperty]

I agree that machine guns don't feel very useful in game. But i think its mainly because the machine gunner is very exposed (and with very little situational awareness), and because suppression seems to be completely useless. I think suppression effects should be increased to the point where you cant aim at all without shaking like someone with Parkinson's disease. Suppression is supposed to model the fear of death, but it does not do so at the moment in my opinion. It is easy to pop out after an mg burst and shoot the gunner right in the head.

 

[6S.Maraz]

Leading targets is far easier with MG when shooting short bursts compensates for aiming errors: just lead a bit more and let them run into the bullets

This cannot work for MG.34, because just the first bullet goes were aimed, the following ones go high, because the strange recoil modelled in game throws the barrel upwards. If the enemy is more than 100m away, the second and following bullets will all miss.

At the moment, the MG.34 is just useful as a semi-auto rifle with a big magazine.

The same is true for DP-28 but to a lesser extent.

Maraz

 

[Jippofin]

I just explained how I play with the MG34, and it works just fine for me. I am not the best player but I've been on the top of the list with this technique few times.

Aim for the belt (center mass), just like in RL.

 

[Sight]

Absolutely. These weapons are -not- designed for sustained, man-portable fire. I just want the option to defend myself in a pinch without having to rely on the hip firing that hits everything but what I'm trying to hit. I don't want lolrambo or loleasymode. I just want the ability to fend off an attacker without falling prey to CAN'T DEPLOY HERE.

This! Plus the additonal benefit that TW does not have to fix all the maps.We could use an already great working support mechanism that is in the game and working for all other weapons except PT.

As people will get better pro's will shoot very accurate when using hip firing with MG's anyway so using ADS without beeing deployed wouldn't be a gamechanger gameplay wise.It would make MG'ing more accessible.

 

[Josef Nader]

almost everyone is a hero now ,so the lmgs dont supress ****

So wait, bullets get less lethal when someone becomes a hero?

I agree the MGs are so nerfed in RO2 as is TWI might as well take them out of the game... Where a well positiond MG42 should change the shape of game play with to its enormous fire volume, power and accuracy, it's little more then an aesthetic accessory to RO2, that is easily countered with a hand-gun or bayonet -- even DOD Source's MG42 is more capable then RO2's...

Er, it -does- change the course of gameplay. The machine gunner just has to know how to use it. There's a steep learning curve here. People haven't learned the weapon.

Take it from me, mate. Properly used, the LMGs in the game are beyond lethal and more than capable of annihilating the enemy team. I'm getting to the point now where an entire attacking force will divert from the cap to try and smoke me out of my position because I just blasted their entire flank to hell and back. It's just a matter of knowing how to position yourself.

I do agree with the rest of your post. Guns are designed to be man-portable and effective, imagine that!

MG in a good position changes the tide of the battle in game now. Just get 45 degrees of axis to the enemy avenue of approach and a single MG will stop enemy advance on that side of the map.

Biggest problem is that the game replicates combat pretty accurately and people do not know how to really use cover (in RL and in game). One should never position himself in windows, just for example. Neither should one never shoot towards enemy, but from sides. Here is where MG becomes essential. Leading targets is far easier with MG when shooting short bursts compensates for aiming errors: just lead a bit more and let them run into the bullets. 50 round belt means that one should be able to kill 10-15 enemies before reload, and before that no one is coming through. One should seek this kind of positions with firing distance of 100-150m.

On few maps this doesn't work, mainly because the environment isn't MG friendly and secondly because squad do not cover mg positions but play individual battles. But that is hardly the fault of the games MG modelling when fired, which (repeated ad nauseum) is spot on.

QFT.

This is exactly how LMGs are supposed to be used, and how I use them to great success.

I agree that machine guns don't feel very useful in game. But i think its mainly because the machine gunner is very exposed (and with very little situational awareness), and because suppression seems to be completely useless. I think suppression effects should be increased to the point where you cant aim at all without shaking like someone with Parkinson's disease. Suppression is supposed to model the fear of death, but it does not do so at the moment in my opinion. It is easy to pop out after an mg burst and shoot the gunner right in the head.

That's a problem with your machine gunner than, isn't it? I don't expose myself, and I'm very perceptive about what's going on around me. As I've said, suppression effects are pointless and unrealistic. I don't need the other guy to start having a seizure just because I shot at him for me to be effective. In fact, they could take suppression effects out of the game entirely and my performance as an MGer wouldn't be effective. Either they take cover, or I kill them. There's your fear of death. Find something solid, or stare at a respawn screen for 15 seconds. It's that simple. If I goof, and the guy and his buddies start hunting me, I don't stick around to die like a chump, I relocate to a new position and hit them when they aren't expecting it. At no point do I get into a sniper duel with a bunch of riflemen. I'd lose.

In real life, the most effective tactic to deal with a machine gunner is to spread out. While he's shooting at one of your buddies, you pop out and shoot him. The most dangerous time is when the MGer ISN'T shooting, because you don't know what he's aiming at. If you pop up, it's likely he'll open up on YOU, and that's bad. If he's busy perforating the cover of the guy across the street from you, it's awfully hard for him to swing around and shoot you before you can get a shot or two off.