How the Berserker is overpowered...

[Evilsod]

What you say is true yes....in the hands of an average/good player.
You will find yourself dead most of the time in those situations.

But in the hands of a very good player those scenarios only occur if they do something stupid.

You can kite zeds pretty much any map you play as long as you have a good circuit and are on your toes and of course have the right load out with the Zerker. And thats what it sounds like nutterbutter is saying which is 100% true.

Games need to be balanced at the top scale of skill not mid-range or low-range.
Not offending anyone or meaning to sound smart...but its true.

If the Zerker has the best chance of surviving..and you put that chance in the hands of an excellent player....he's untouchable.

What scenarios? A wipe can happen to any team no matter how good the Zerker is. If the **** hits the fan and you try to bail then you'll walk into all the newly spawned specimens because of the ones your team killed before they died. This is just fact. Sure skill plays a part but luck is such a monumental factor that once you get above a certain level the differences in skill won't make much difference.

Sadly that is wrong.

You can not balance a game on average gamers! It doesn't work that way and never will.

SC2 is a prime example of this.
Blizzard let the worlds best players pound the hell out of it and find the problems.
If people like you and me did it the game would be a mess.

No that is how you balance competitive PvP games, which this game doesn't include. The top tier, especially a top tier that plays for prize money, have to be balanced around. but Killing Floor is a very long way away from that sort of game.

 

[brick_top1982]

uyyyyyyy............ first supports.....then zerkers.....then sharpshooters...then mediczerker...then zerker again..... there is always going to be a perk that someone(s) thinks to be overpowered... Just roll with the game and have some damn fun doing it

 

[Deafmute]

Why do you people take things to such extremes?

Probably because everything you say is completely, outrageously ridiculous.

 

[outofrealman]

uyyyyyyy............ first supports.....then zerkers.....then sharpshooters...then mediczerker...then zerker again..... there is always going to be a perk that someone(s) thinks to be overpowered... Just roll with the game and have some damn fun doing it

Cos there are always a best perk or say, most effective perk for some suituations.

 

[Unit-05]

Go away nutter.

 

[FlakAttack]

Go away nutter.

This. 1000 times this.

NutterButter is an idiot who has made post after post about half-assed thoughts where he tries to argue something or add something to the game that we all know is an incredibly bad idea. NutterButter incites huge arguments, drops those who disagree with him on ignore, and then proceeds to piss off the rest of the forum just by existing. He has never broken the rules, but he is universally hated; the very definition of subtle trolling.

In fact, I would go so far as to say he is a master at trolling. I have rarely seen anyone so successful at stirring debate, staying within the rules, and using the very arguments put forth against him on others, totally stunting all useful conversation about a topic and putting the focus on him.

NutterButter purposely creates these heated arguments and serves as an all-around distraction on this forum. He contributes nothing useful, and only a handful of alts and idiots will vouch for him. This forum will be a better place with him gone, (it couldn't possibly get any worse, that's for sure) and it is for this reason that I propose he should be banned.

 

[nutterbutter]

This. 1000 times this.

NutterButter is an idiot who has made post after post about half-assed thoughts where he tries to argue something or add something to the game that we all know is an incredibly bad idea. NutterButter incites huge arguments, drops those who disagree with him on ignore, and then proceeds to piss off the rest of the forum just by existing. He has never broken the rules, but he is universally hated; the very definition of subtle trolling.

In fact, I would go so far as to say he is a master at trolling. I have rarely seen anyone so successful at stirring debate, staying within the rules, and using the very arguments put forth against him on others, totally stunting all useful conversation about a topic and putting the focus on him.

NutterButter purposely creates these heated arguments and serves as an all-around distraction on this forum. He contributes nothing useful, and only a handful of alts and idiots will vouch for him. This forum will be a better place with him gone, (it couldn't possibly get any worse, that's for sure) and it is for this reason that I propose he should be banned.

A few things for you to consider.

1) No one says that you have to participate in a particular thread.
2. I don't call anyone names.
3. I only ignore people who are only interested in continually calling names and throwing insults. I think about 4 people.
4. I respect and welcome everyone's opinion. If someone thinks that one of my ideas is crazy or the simply the worst idea ever (or since the last worst idea ever), that's fine. Post that. Then leave the thread. After all, there isn't any reason for someone to post that they hate the idea every day, is there?
5. We don't have to agree. You can think I'm wrong, and I can think you are wrong. That's cool. I can live with that. But we can be polite about it, yes?
6. No one can make you respond a certain way. Only you decide that.

One last thing to consider. You started off calling me an idiot and ended your post with calling everyone who agrees with me an idiot. Think about that for a while.

Oh, and thank you for for saying that I am successful at stirring debate.

 

[CandleJack]

A few things for you to consider.

1) No one says that you have to participate in a particular thread.
2. I don't call anyone names.
3. I only ignore people who are only interested in continually calling names and throwing insults. I think about 4 people.
4. I respect and welcome everyone's opinion. If someone thinks that one of my ideas is crazy or the simply the worst idea ever (or since the last worst idea ever), that's fine. Post that. Then leave the thread. After all, there isn't any reason for someone to post that they hate the idea every day, is there?
5. We don't have to agree. You can think I'm wrong, and I can think you are wrong. That's cool. I can live with that. But we can be polite about it, yes?
6. No one can make you respond a certain way. Only you decide that.

One last thing to consider. You started off calling me an idiot and ended your post with calling everyone who agrees with me an idiot. Think about that for a while.

Oh, and thank you for for saying that I am successful at stirring debate.

Stirring debate is a wonderful thing.

It's stirring arguments that's the problem. I'm sure FlakAttack's vocabulary isn't big enough to fit both those words in

And so far, nutterbutter's the logical one in the debate, and the only one so far not in the argument.

 

[Benjamin]

4) No ammo cost unless required. Berserker can go the entire game without spending a single pound on ammo if he wants.

4) Abundance of cash. Since the berserker doesn't need to purchase ammo on a regular basis, the zerker can afford to purchase and reload any weapon.

Both these are just part of the inherent nature of the perk, which I don't personally think there's anything wrong with. Yes, the berserker doesn't have to reload, meaning he'll never be caught with his pants down, and he never really has to spend money apart from for armour, but why do these things necessarily make him OP? Truth is he doesn't really need the money anyway, since his most effective weapons he can get for cheap. As for not having to reload, none of the other perks require you to get up close.

 

[timur]

Well, I didn't read the thread, as I know what will happen already (Nutters has a sort of aura about him that creates arguments despite his calm demeanor).

But I don't feel like arguing, so I'll just state my opinion:

The zerker is only overpowered to those few who master it. It is a perk where you can be infinitely bad or good at it. If course, about 98% estimated players are masters. In fact, about half are exceedingly bad at zerker. And most are just not up to par with most.

Of course, the main problem with this is that there is no "ceiling" if you will. You just keep getting better, and slowly become invincible. However, the solution cannot be nerfing, or anything directly against the perk. If you did that, then it becomes even more useless to the average Joe. And that average player is important. This is a Co-op game, not mw2 or starcraftII.

So the main problem is just not having a way to close it from being invincible, while not tampering with the lower levels. And here is my solution: since pretty much all masters of the zerker feel obliged to play on Suicidal, make that difficulty have that 1-hit stun from the current beta (one of the negative effects will have to be taken off for lower tier players, I suggest this), thereby capping the zerker by getting rid of their inherent invulnerability to scrake surprises.

 

[Salad Snake]

Sadly that is wrong.

You can not balance a game on average gamers! It doesn't work that way and never will.

SC2 is a prime example of this.
Blizzard let the worlds best players pound the hell out of it and find the problems.
If people like you and me did it the game would be a mess.

Same with this game. If you let low-end/mid-range gamers balance it it would be ruined within minutes.

Sadly gaming skill is very much like intelligence...you see things from a different level.

As smug and big headed as it may seem its true which does suck, but its just the way it is...sadly.

But as it stands the Zerker is getting a nerf anyways right? so we might aswell just wait and see what happens

Funny, if you make every class with the same structure as a honors class it would be horrible for everyone but the quickest-thinking 10% of students. Yet that would be balancing on the top-tier no?


Also funny how most games that are balanced on top-tier only become fun after putting hours of work into it and making it to mid-tier. CS would be a case in point (or at least they claim to be balanced by top-tier, personally I don't think CS is balanced at all), SC and DOTA would be two others. About the only games I find that are comp-tested and still fun on the casual level are fighting games such as SF or MvC2.


The thing about KF is that it's a blast right from the get-go, even learning the controls and what the different weapons do is fun due to the oftentimes-humorous tool-tips that pop up on the HUD. I think accessibility was and still is important to KF's success, and balancing for casual play is a big step toward that.

 

[timur]

Funny, if you make every class with the same structure as a honors class it would be horrible for everyone but the quickest-thinking 10% of students. Yet that would be balancing on the top-tier no?


Also funny how most games that are balanced on top-tier only become fun after putting hours of work into it and making it to mid-tier. CS would be a case in point (or at least they claim to be balanced by top-tier, personally I don't think CS is balanced at all), SC and DOTA would be two others. About the only games I find that are comp-tested and still fun on the casual level are fighting games such as SF or MvC2.


The thing about KF is that it's a blast right from the get-go, even learning the controls and what the different weapons do is fun due to the oftentimes-humorous tool-tips that pop up on the HUD. I think accessibility was and still is important to KF's success, and balancing for casual play is a big step toward that.

Couldn't have said it better myself

I do love those HUD messages, to this day. They can be so unhelpful, and yet I would prefer them to actual hints any day.

 

[nutterbutter]

Both these are just part of the inherent nature of the perk, which I don't personally think there's anything wrong with. Yes, the berserker doesn't have to reload, meaning he'll never be caught with his pants down, and he never really has to spend money apart from for armour, but why do these things necessarily make him OP?.

Well, just those two things don't make him OP. And I completely agree with your earlier point that such things are inherent to zerkers. What makes him OP is that he has every advantage with no weaknesses.

Zerker needs to have some weaknesses. He has speed, quickness, significant resistances, dirt-cheap weapons, top tier weapon the very next wave, no reloading pauses, no ammo problems, no money problems, can equip any weapon, can break off combat at any time, can attack with their top tier weapon continually and indefinitely, and can't be grabbed by clots.

Zerker needs some weaknesses. Lower weight capacity? No armor? Inability to attack 100% of the time. Can't equip any weapon over a pistol? Some kind of fatigue? Make his weapons expensive just like everyone else's? Remove the retarded ability for the berserker to stand perfectly safe on one side of the door and mindlessly attack the air in front of the door while specimens walk into damage? I don't know. I'm just thinking things off the top of my head. But zerker has to have some situations or enemies where another perk would be better.

 

[Salad Snake]

But zerker has to have some situations or enemies where another perk would be better.

Yeah, like a range restriction or something.....


Here's one: Bad decisions hurt Berserker more then any other perk. You can conceivably just focus on shooting anything that moves as another perk, and do alright (say, if you're a long-time FPS'er and your aim/reactions were just unbelievably good) so long as your team's knowledgeable for you. But if you try to W+M1 without any care for spacing and situational awareness as Zerker, you will die within seconds on any difficulty, with little to no chance that your teammates can save you.


I know you're just going to say "Well that's bad players for you, who cares about them?", and I'll say that it demonstrates how Zerker, while having the highest skill ceiling (arguably) also has the lowest skill floor. A poor Zerker is worse then a poor anything-else.

 

[nutterbutter]

Yeah, like a range restriction or something.....

A berserker can't equip a LAR or m79? Every zerker I have ever played with uses one or more ranged weapons as well as their melee weapons.

Here's one: Bad decisions hurt Berserker more then any other perk.

I disagree with that. Zerker has the speed and damage resistance to get out of bad decisions better than any other perk other than medic and that is if the medic has armor. I see it all the time. Zerker runs into the middle of a group and 20 seconds later he runs back and screams for the medic. No other perk, other than medic, has the speed to get out of trouble.

I know you're just going to say "Well that's bad players for you, who cares about them?", and I'll say that it demonstrates how Zerker, while having the highest skill ceiling (arguably) also has the lowest skill floor. A poor Zerker is worse then a poor anything-else.

From my original post "I am assuming competent players, tactics, and decisions. I don't expect or require anyone to do anything suicidal or idiotic."

As for worse that a poor-anything-else, I am sure you have played with people who have no problem flaming everything in sight so other players can't see. Or demos who continually shoot 3 feet in front of the group. Or commandos, support, and sharpies who aggro the FP and scrake 100 feet away.

How about you list the weaknesses of each perk up so I have a clue what on earth constitutes as a "weakness" since the ones I -repeatedly- mentioned somehow don't exist/don't count as a "weakness".

IIRC, let's go over the two scenarios you mentioned. The first being 6 crawlers with 2 sirens behind them and the second having 3 husks across the map.

Ok, the crawlers. 6 crawlers drop on a player (because anyone including the zerker can just shoot them if they crawl up) while 2 sirens pop from around the corner. In this scenario, I'd take the zerker over every perk because the zerker can create time by creating space from the specimens. Every other perk, except medic, /has/ to fight the crawlers /right now/ while backing away from the sirens and taking damage from the crawlers. Now, let me add a small wrinkle. Let's put 3 gorefasts and 3 clots 20 feet away. For the zerker, it really isn't a problem. Run to one side, sideswipe the closest gorefast, then spin and attack them all. Now, let's consider what every other perk has to do. Sirens, along with any crawlers that are still alive, are behind the slow moving perk. What does the perk's biggest threat? The clots. That's right. Out of the sirens, crawlers, gorefasts, and clots, the clots are the biggest threat because if /one/ of those clots grab him, the player is a statue, all three gorefasts will attack, and the crawlers and sirens will catch up.

3 husks across the map. I'd still take the zerker because the zerker has the speed to break line of sight the fastest. Even if I had the xbow, no way would I fight them where all 3 have a shot at me. Add in additional specimens, and it is all zerker because the zerker can run while the other perks /have/ to fight the specimens while trying to dodge the fireballs. Add in that the specimens are now dodging the fireballs which makes killing them even more difficult.

I could be wrong, but I see the zerker as having the best chance in both of those scenarios and adding more specimens to either scenarios, only tilts the favor to the zerker.

 

[outofrealman]

There's ALWAYS a perk that will be best to solo. If you make zerker's solos ability on par with any other perks, you will make them extremly underpowered in team play. And even you do it, there will be another "best" perk to solo.

 

[9_6]

IIRC, let's go over the two scenarios you mentioned. The first being 6 crawlers with 2 sirens behind them and the second having 3 husks across the map.

Ok, the crawlers. 6 crawlers drop on a player (because anyone including the zerker can just shoot them if they crawl up) while 2 sirens pop from around the corner. In this scenario, I'd take the zerker over every perk because the zerker can create time by creating space from the specimens. Every other perk, except medic, /has/ to fight the crawlers /right now/ while backing away from the sirens and taking damage from the crawlers. Now, let me add a small wrinkle. Let's put 3 gorefasts and 3 clots 20 feet away. For the zerker, it really isn't a problem. Run to one side, sideswipe the closest gorefast, then spin and attack them all. Now, let's consider what every other perk has to do. Sirens, along with any crawlers that are still alive, are behind the slow moving perk. What does the perk's biggest threat? The clots. That's right. Out of the sirens, crawlers, gorefasts, and clots, the clots are the biggest threat because if /one/ of those clots grab him, the player is a statue, all three gorefasts will attack, and the crawlers and sirens will catch up.

3 husks across the map. I'd still take the zerker because the zerker has the speed to break line of sight the fastest. Even if I had the xbow, no way would I fight them where all 3 have a shot at me. Add in additional specimens, and it is all zerker because the zerker can run while the other perks /have/ to fight the specimens while trying to dodge the fireballs. Add in that the specimens are now dodging the fireballs which makes killing them even more difficult.

I could be wrong, but I see the zerker as having the best chance in both of those scenarios and adding more specimens to either scenarios, only tilts the favor to the zerker.

Okay, scenario 1, crawlers close to you, sirens closing in while clots and gorefasts are on your trail.
If he has no room, for instance in a biotics hallway, the zerker is simply screwed cause once he's surrounded by crawlers or, worse, does the mario-jump, it's over.
Siren surround sound and gorefast machetes will easily do the rest.

A firebug can do his dragon punch to get out of this easily, killing everything around him.
A commando can spray the crawlies dead, whip out his second weapon, spray the sirens dead and have an alley to run through while reloading and then taking care of everything else.
If everything is lined up well, a support only needs to shoot 1 time to get through this.
Demos are screwed. Medics are screwed (siren scream).

So in this scenario, I'd rather be a firebug than a zerker.

Scenario 2 is easy. Why would you want to be a zerker if you're immune to husk shots as a firebug?
I've seen someone run around the map for 2 minutes with nothing much to be able to do as a zerker because of 1 siren, 2 husks and some meatshields.
One shotgun blast/grenade/flamer shot would be enough to take care of all of them.
You can also stun husks with the LAR bodyshot as a sharpshooter which makes even it a better perk in this situation.

However once husks are involved, you'll be glad you are a firebug rather than a zerker.
They'll even occasionally burn their friends down for you while you don't need to pay any attention to their shots.

Also every perk other than zerkers only become better if in a team.
Only the zerker becomes better if left alone.

 

[nutterbutter]

There's ALWAYS a perk that will be best to solo. If you make zerker's solos ability on par with any other perks, you will make them extremly underpowered in team play. And even you do it, there will be another "best" perk to solo.

I think you are missing my point. I'm not looking to nerf the zerker. I've stated many time before I think he /should/ be able to do the most damage. After all, every time he slices or cleaves a specimen should be an instant kill. I've got no problem with that. I've got no problem with the zerker being the best bet against FP & scrakes.

But some type of give and take with "speed, quickness, significant resistances, dirt-cheap weapons, top tier weapon the very next wave, no reloading pauses, no ammo problems, no money problems, can equip any weapon, can break off combat at any time, can attack with their top tier weapon continually and indefinitely, and can't be grabbed by clots."

I'd drop his speed to 10% but keep his current quickness. Lower his carrying weight so he can only carry katana + a pistol/mp7. No long range shooting. raise the price of melee weapons so they have to be earned. 1000 for a katana for a lvl 6 zerker? Make the machete a decent weapon. Make it so he has full speed running for 10 seconds then he has to run normal speed for 10 seconds. Same with medic. And do something that prevents the zerker from being able to continually attack every second of every wave.

 

[9_6]

I'm not looking to nerf the zerker.

Okay.
/thread

I'd drop his speed to 10% but keep his current quickness. Lower his carrying weight so he can only carry katana + a pistol/mp7. No long range shooting. raise the price of melee weapons so they have to be earned. 1000 for a katana for a lvl 6 zerker? Make the machete a decent weapon. Make it so he has full speed running for 10 seconds then he has to run normal speed for 10 seconds. Same with medic. And do something that prevents the zerker from being able to continually attack every second of every wave.

Wait...

 

[nutterbutter]

Okay, scenario 1, crawlers close to you, sirens closing in while clots and gorefasts are on your trail.
If he has no room, for instance in a biotics hallway, the zerker is simply screwed cause once he's surrounded by crawlers or, worse, does the mario-jump, it's over.
Siren surround sound and gorefast machetes will easily do the rest.

Don't forget that the zerker can run out and has resistances to the attacks.

A firebug can do his dragon punch to get out of this easily, killing everything around him.
A commando can spray the crawlies dead, whip out his second weapon, spray the sirens dead and have an alley to run through while reloading and then taking care of everything else.
If everything is lined up well, a support only needs to shoot 1 time to get through this.
Demos are screwed. Medics are screwed (siren scream).

So in this scenario, I'd rather be a firebug than a zerker.

If the weapon has enough ammo in it to kill everything before a reload. If I was the berzerker and cornered, Id rush the sirens and kill one on a drive-by and keep running. Resistances will keep him alive.

However, firebug was a very clever solution.

Scenario 2 is easy. Why would you want to be a zerker if you're immune to husk shots as a firebug?
I've seen someone run around the map for 2 minutes with nothing much to be able to do as a zerker because of 1 siren, 2 husks and some meatshields.
One shotgun blast/grenade/flamer shot would be enough to take care of all of them.
You can also stun husks with the LAR bodyshot as a sharpshooter which makes even it a better perk in this situation.

However once husks are involved, you'll be glad you are a firebug rather than a zerker.
They'll even occasionally burn their friends down for you while you don't need to pay any attention to their shots.

Sure, but my priority in that situation is to break line of sight with the husks and then attack them one at a time.

Ok, we got 4 viable solutions and somewhat agreement on one of them. This is good.

Also every perk other than zerkers only become better if in a team.
Only the zerker becomes better if left alone.

I disagree. If every player is doing their role's job, the all players are better. Players thinning the attack for the closer players, and the players in the rear picking off the groups and healing the ones in front. When everyone knows what they are doing and how to do it, it is a wonderful thing.

I would rephrase "Only the zerker becomes better if left alone." to "Only the zerker is affected less than the others, when he has to solo."

This is fun. Come up with some more scenarios.