how much would character DLC need to cost to turn a profit?

[LolzMan1325]

In the recent Tripwire Interactive Community Report, product lead David Amata answered a question about whether or not any new characters will be coming to KF2 (at this point in its life), to which the answer was "no", and continued to explain that this is due to the high cost of writing, casting, recording, and localization.

Looking back on character DLC, both Badass Santa and Mrs. Foster were both a measly $10. That's how much guns are now. If new characters cost that much to make, they should've been like $30, which I think would've been more than worth it because that's a whole new face, a whole new voice, and you use that content all the time just by playing as them, so you'd definitely get your money's worth out of the time you spend playing as that character. And, I think if more highly requested characters were made, most people would see it as a worthwhile investment if they really like that character, given that compared to KF1 in which characters were a dime-a-dozen but had no personality to bring to the table via their voice, the novelty of seeing an old favorite fleshed out without the limitations KF1 had could've been a nice selling point. If nothing else, I really wish Ash Harding could've been brought back before reaching that conclusion, she was a highly requested favorite from the beginning.

And some people might say, "Well, $30 is how much KF2 itself costs, a new character should cost as much as the game?" and to that I say why not? The price of a game shouldn't dictate how much the paid content is allowed to cost, at this point games are about player retention & spending, the game doesn't need new players, it needs to support the people already playing it. Team Fortress 2 is free and there's content in that game that costs money, already exceeding the base game's price of $0. Additionally, in games like Overwatch, players who play the game frequently and buy lootboxes every holiday will eventually spend more money total on lootboxes than the game costs as well. This is just the nature of "games as a service" in that they need a constant source of revenue in order to keep producing content, which is most likely why weapons stopped being free, as in order to produce more weapons, they needed to turn a profit on the production cost.

But maybe the price wasn't the problem, maybe it's just lack of player interest that wouldn't make the production investment worth it, plus a price increase would probably still lead to a net loss. Another reason I can understand is that the demand for new characters just isn't there, especially not if they were $30. In all honesty though, I personally would pay $30 for a character if it meant we would keep getting them. I guess above all else I'm just very slightly disappointed that what we have now is the final lineup, especially with such a diverse cast from KF1 in which a lot of them could have easily made a return, I.E. Ash Harding (as mentioned earlier), Officer Thorne, Harold Lott, and the TF2 Pyros.

So I guess my question to David Amata, if he ever sees this, is how much would character DLC need to cost to turn a profit/keep characters being added? And if price isn't the problem, then what else would need to be done to make new characters worth the production investment?

 

[Yoshiro]

The full on economics is quite complex and we are unlikely to go into that sort of detail with the community. But a few considerations:

• It doesn't necessarily mean it was unprofitable to not be worth doing.
  • Things that break even or do better can be deemed as the resources better and more effectively going elsewhere
• Pricing anything is a bit of a gamble (be it a game or DLC), you are trying to figure out the value of a product that will entice a set amount to purchase it.
  • Too high and you likely won't reach your target audience size
  • Too low, you may sell more, but not make the profits you had hoped to reach
• We've experimented with multiple DLC/Transaction types within KF 2 and have gravitated towards what has worked/is working at any given moment with the community
  • This at times means we have moved away from things we were doing and puts efforts elsewhere

 

[Aleflippy]

You are out of your mind if you believe 30$ is a fair price for a new character. Let's take a quick example with another genre that thrives on DLC characters : fighting games.


Characters are not part of the appeal of these kind of games... They ARE the game. Just like classes in FPS (or "heroes" as we often call them now), they all have their movesets, their peculiarities, and more often than not : quotes. And a personality (hopefully). They also need to have a striking design in order to be recognized instantly.

So far so good. That's common in a lot of games. But here's where it gets interesting :

Killing Floor 2 characters actually have most of that (design, quotes, personality, backstory...) BUT they don't behave differently at all. You can pick any character and it won't change your gaming experience. Sure, it might be more pleasing to hear the jokes of the Fostinator or the joy of Ana using explosives. But that's pretty much it.

Meanwhile, whenever we add a new character in a fighting game, they need to balance it out... AND find new cool stuff to give him/her (if it's just a clone of another character, what's the point?). And while the fighting games of yesterday rarely had voice actors (or just for grunts or victory quotes), it is becoming more commonplace to have them say tons of stuff (take the last two Mortal Kombat games for example)

And yet, I believe the most expansive character I bought for a fighting game was something like 8€ max. Let's say a little under 10$.

Now I know : Tripwire is no Capcom or Namco. And it isn't backed-up by Warner Bros either. But if Lab Zero managed to do it for Skullgirls. If ArcSys managed to do it despite the animation nightmare that comes with their work... So can Tripwire.

And certainly not for 30 bucks a piece. It's already barely selling at 10$.

 

[LolzMan1325]

I feel like Lab Zero and ArcSys have less to worry about, though. I think maybe after reading your post, now to my understanding the actual issue is manpower or focus, maybe? For fighting games, making a new character is a core gameplay addition, like you said, and a character in a game like that involves making the animations, moves, voicing, and balancing.

But the thing is that's just about half the work when it comes to fighting games, the other half being stages. Lab Zero has it a bit easier since the characters are all artwork instead of 3D models that would need rigging and different animations programmed (in that case it's just about programming certain pictures to come out with certain button combinations), so let's take ArcSys into account.

Again, characters are half the work of a fighting game, the other half being stages. It's very easy to build your development team in half (give or take) and dedicate one half to all the work involved with stages, and all the work involved with characters, and ArcSys has quite a bit more employees (133 in 2018) than Tripwire (87 in 2019).

With just 46 more employees, ArcSys has no trouble creating content for their current project (in this case, Guilty Gear). Meanwhile, Tripwire, with 46 less employees than them, has to not only worry about guns, maps, enemies, and gamemodes for Killing Floor 2, but also content for Rising Storm 2 and Maneater. It's safe to say fewer employees have more responsibility than that of a fighting game, so what you said about how Tripwire should be able to pull off the same probably isn't true given what I see as an inadvertent lack of focus in the company with not a lot of people to go around working on all these projects without at least one of them suffering as resources get put elsewhere for whatever is deemed more important.

To this end, I can't help but bring up something Tripwire talked about at the end of 2019: collaborating with the developers of World War Z developer Sabre Interactive to "develop future Killing Floor 2 features and content", which according to Wikipedia, would add a repertoire of up to 950 new employees to work with (though probably significantly less than that, as obviously the whole company wouldn't be taken in to work third-party). Perhaps maybe this is why weapons started costing money? They need to be able to pay all the people working on the game for all that they have to do, and considering it feels to me like this deal fell through, it's probably still a lot of work for so few people.

So again, taking another look at it after reading your reply, I do agree in that the price of the DLC isn't the issue. It's just... whatever is going on at Tripwire. I don't mean to sound so malicious in my opinion of Tripwire, essentially calling mismanagement the issue hindering the game's development. I don't claim to know what's going on or basically dictate that all work at Tripwire be focused on the game that matters most to me, KF2, when that's definitely not how things should work. It's just from how this all seems on the outside, I can't help but wonder.

Now I'm just wondering what happened to that deal with Sabre Interactive, if the deal really did fall through, or Sabre saw it more important to focus on getting their own projects out the door first before designating more employees to third-party work on KF2?

 

[Aleflippy]

What you say is indeed very true. I mean... Some of it is pretty much mere facts that you can't deny (the number of employees for example)

However, I do have a few gripes I'd like to point out.

-Tripwire has a lot of projects going on... But ArcSys does too. In the past THREE years, they have released Dragonball FighterZ, Blazblue Crosstag Battle and updates for Guilty Gear Xrd. They are currently working on the new Guilty Gear and still releasing DLCs for DBZ. While they were helped by Cygames, "Granblue Fantasy Versus" was also partially made by Arcsys, as can be felt on the animation and overall aesthetics.

That's quite a lot too. And while they have a meaty +46 employees in comparison to Tripwire, working on multiple games at once is still no easy feat.

Similarly, while Tripwire has to work on OTHER things besides characters... Don't forget that the community helps a lot in regards of items or maps.

In addition, it's not just "stages and characters" (which, by itself, is a huge amount of work). It's also about presentation and music. Quite often, a new character gets a new theme song in addition to everything we mentioned prior. A new stage is also common. And in the case of fighting game... the community almost NEVER contribute to anything. Besides maybe one or two costumes based on fan-arts ... and the fantastic creative lab that is MUGEN.

Finally, I would also say that while it's perfectly understandable that Tripwire would put fewer employees to work on KF2 (which is already five years old), and that fewer employees mean more responsibilities for the few who do work on it... you can't complain that people are less interested in a game that you are not focusing on anymore. Some people pointed out that DLC weapons felt less "refined" than weapons produced during the game prime. Yet, they are priced at 10$... Which makes me think that your thought about the deal with Saber interactive is interesting.

My first reaction was to say that the lack of refinement in both the models and animations of the new weapons was proof that it was indeed Saber's work (considering Tripwire made a reputation out of perfectly tuned guns). Similarly, I'm fairly sure that Tripwire mentioned in multiple WWAUT that Saber was indeed helping with Killing Floor 2.

YET. It is also entirely possible that the guns are less detailed than before precisely because the deal failed and thus with less employees and resources, they decided to focus instead on the effectiveness and balancing of the weapons rather than the details. Which would be understandable. But paying more to get less is... Strange. And a tough sell. But then the argument would be that "we paid for the full game, anything that is added afterward are extras". To which I also agree.

But as unfair as it may seem, considering that Tripwire has less employees than other big developers... You cannot use the fact that it's a smaller team to pay more for the same thing. If you speak of ethics, sure. But from a business standpoint? Not really, sadly. Most people wouldn't want to. Because they'd think the way that I do : why should I pay so much for a character that doesn't add anything gameplay wise? Or for something I didn't ask? Gamers are egotistic... And developers are greedy. With exceptions, of course (and thankfully)

As Yoshiro mentioned, "finding the right balance" is difficult. Too expensive and nobody will want to pay for it. Too cheap and they won't get their investment back. And yet, sometimes it's not even about the price...But just out of disinterest.

Now my bottom line would be that we're actually in the same train of thought. The main problem is whatever is happening at Tripwire. And I would add : they stuck to the "big update every three months" formula for way too long. And here's the proof : the latest updates had very little to do with the overall themes of the events. We had pirates during summer FFS... And every update is easy to predict : one new map, between two and four weapons, half of them being DLCs... and a few tweaks. Barely any. And barely meaningful.

I believe that's what they should do : either skip an update to put a LOT of tweaks and rebalancing. The Survivalist and Sharpshooter perks have been clamoring to get better skills for example. Similarly, the behavior of zeds are often too random... Sometimes you can steamroll through the game with ease, and then suddenly get two fleshpounds, three QPs right in front of you, with a bloat and siren spawning on your back.

Then, after that big clean-up. They should maybe release one or two major updates to wrap up the game... even as DLCs if necessary! Maybe a big pack priced at like 25$ (like an expansion) with multiple guns, maps, one new character and stuff. As for things to impress the players, if they put let's say two packs... Maybe one with the fully-fledged version of the upgrade system (that would surely add dozen of hours of gameplay as people try every combo), and the other with plenty of new "weekly challenge" (at least ten more).

Because that's another issue : it seems Tripwire add plenty of ideas and went nowhere with them, and nothing testify it more than the weeklies and upgrade system.

And yet, with rumors that they're pondering on a potential KF3... So why bother at all? They could wipe the floor clean and start with new basis.

I guess everything is a "wait and see" now.

 

[LolzMan1325]

I suppose so. That has me thinking, if maybe TWI has a small team still working on KF2 while the folks from Sabre and a larger part of TWI are working towards KF3. I feel this is fairly plausible considering KF2 came out at a rather unfortunate time where Unreal Engine 4 was just a couple years off, so now they're just kinda stuck developing with outdated tools. Not to mention Nvidia Flex, which is basically a dead feature in KF2 as it has continued development on Unreal 4 while KF2 is still stuck on Unreal 3. Through no fault of TWI of course, Unreal 4 is just the natural progression of technology, so it couldn't help being left behind.

To the "wait and see" end though, I guess it'd be pretty great to see this potential KF3 on Unreal 4, if it ever comes to be. I'd say it's probably not that far off, considering (last time I checked), Killing Floor: Incursion was on Unreal 4, perhaps as a test bed for the development tools.

 

[Aleflippy]

I suppose so. That has me thinking, if maybe TWI has a small team still working on KF2 while the folks from Sabre and a larger part of TWI are working towards KF3. I feel this is fairly plausible considering KF2 came out at a rather unfortunate time where Unreal Engine 4 was just a couple years off, so now they're just kinda stuck developing with outdated tools. Not to mention Nvidia Flex, which is basically a dead feature in KF2 as it has continued development on Unreal 4 while KF2 is still stuck on Unreal 3. Through no fault of TWI of course, Unreal 4 is just the natural progression of technology, so it couldn't help being left behind.

To the "wait and see" end though, I guess it'd be pretty great to see this potential KF3 on Unreal 4, if it ever comes to be. I'd say it's probably not that far off, considering (last time I checked), Killing Floor: Incursion was on Unreal 4, perhaps as a test bed for the development tools.

I'm gonna take another weird example, but Mortal Kombat 11 is proof that you can work wonders with outdated technology. The game looks gorgeous, probably the prettiest fighting game ever made so far (and we're talking of a serie that got popular thanks to its fatalities after all).

Yet, I would say two other things to kinda disagree with myself here. First, Netherrealm Studios may be a fairly young studio, but it has experienced staff in it... and certainly lots of resources since it is owned by Warner Bros. Of course, it cannot be compared to Tripwire.

Another thing to keep in mind is that one doesn't have to be realistic to look pretty. When you take some of the finest retro (or neo-retro) games out there, you can sometimes find games with lots of flair and personality despite being full of pixels ! After all, PS1 graphics used to be the future... And yet, they certainly aged less gracefully as 16-bits games.

Finally, let's also think of games that still got updates looong after their prime... Team Fortress 2 (although it has been on stand-by for like 3 years now), Terraria, Age of Empires or World of Warcraft. Now of course I'm talking about games that had (and still have) a huge fanbase, with a lot of involvement from said fanbases. But it proves that even old technology can still produce some good stuff.

I would also say two other things :

First, the main problem I got with Killing Floor 3 is that I don't really see what it could do that KF2 couldn't... If the premice of the game stays the same (survive a certain number of waves until the last boss and upgrade your arsenal in the meantime), it will really feel outdated and samey. No matter if we had new perks, new weapons etc.

So we should either go for the spin-off route (many people asked for something similar to Left 4 Dead, where we follow the colourful band of mercenaries introduced in KF1 and 2... But we could also introduce a bigger "versus" component. Or something else entirely, like a single, never ending wave for example). OR we could take the same approach...But with many quality of life improvement. I believe a real and well-developed upgrade system (and the new capabilities of Unreal 4) would warrant a brand new game. But not a mere "KF2, but with more of everything"

 

[LolzMan1325]

Yeah of course, that's mainly what I mean. TWI could and would use the new capabilities of Unreal 4 to improve many systems not (easily) possible on Unreal 3, as well as maybe even improve the gore (something I've always felt Left 4 Dead 2 did better with the whole modular system they built around it).

 

[pie1055]

It's also really good timing to begin working on KF3 using Unreal Engine 4 because they just announced Unreal Engine 5 earlier this year. Nothing says Killing Floor like using the previous Unreal Engine shortly after the new one comes out.

I'd say there's many things that'd warrant a KF3. Chief among them would be that KF2 isn't going to see any big additions at this point. Matriarch was the last big thing to hit KF2 and I can't see them making a similar addition when they're talking about how they can't even fund the current content pipeline.

KF2 does also have a lot of potential for meaningful additions that'd be warranted for a sequel.

• The perk system is still underdeveloped. A binary choice tree is a balancing nightmare and everyone generally agrees on the top meta perk skill loadouts. I could see a perk system where lv1-25 gives you 10 points per level and you spend the points on unlocking perk abilities with different abilities costing different amounts based on how valuable they are (damage vs magazine size on Commando for example). This method would allow them to balance and re-balance the abilities without affecting how powerful players are in combat.
• I'm pretty sure the current upgrade system was a WIP version until the full version was going to be completed so that'd be an easy candidate for KF3.
• The gore system has been notably gimped as time has gone on and is nothing like Early Access's gore. This could also be returned to in a sequel but not in KF2 as it stands.
• Sounds. KF1 had 32 max channels and KF2 only has 16(both by default but how many players know to edit a random ini?), meaning important sounds like Husk's charging their fireballs or eDAR Trappers charging their clot-grab beam sometimes just don't play at all and you suffer the consequences with no warning. KF2 is also missing EAX support, something that made sounds in KF1 sound different based on your surroundings and was a night-and-day difference. EAX was removed in Unreal Engine 3 but perhaps a replacement or similar implementation could be made in Unreal Engine 4/5. Whether or not it's related to the previous issues positional audio is generally non-existent in KF2. You're constantly getting attacked from silent zeds you didn't see coming. In KF1 you could hear every zed coming a mile away and you'd know if there was one behind you and what type it was, no question about it.
• A chance to make the game difficult without having to resort to artificial/unfair difficulty. This sort of change would require affecting too much code to happen at this point in KF2's life. It includes sources of difficulty players have no control over and very few tools to mitigate. Things like enrage spawns, <5m spawns, teleportation, the previously-mentioned lack of positional audio, and the whole spawn-with-a-tougher-version replacement system that gives us unending eDARs on Endless's "Stalker-only" waves.
• A chance to make changes to the game without worrying over affecting system requirements. Basically it'd be assumed KF3 would require more powerful hardware and with that the developers would be able to do more with the game. Maybe instead of a max of 16/32 concurrent zeds solo/multiplayer you could rebalance the game around 24/48, for example.

 

[Aleflippy]

It's also really good timing to begin working on KF3 using Unreal Engine 4 because they just announced Unreal Engine 5 earlier this year. Nothing says Killing Floor like using the previous Unreal Engine shortly after the new one comes out.

I'd say there's many things that'd warrant a KF3. Chief among them would be that KF2 isn't going to see any big additions at this point. Matriarch was the last big thing to hit KF2 and I can't see them making a similar addition when they're talking about how they can't even fund the current content pipeline.

KF2 does also have a lot of potential for meaningful additions that'd be warranted for a sequel.

• The perk system is still underdeveloped. A binary choice tree is a balancing nightmare and everyone generally agrees on the top meta perk skill loadouts. I could see a perk system where lv1-25 gives you 10 points per level and you spend the points on unlocking perk abilities with different abilities costing different amounts based on how valuable they are (damage vs magazine size on Commando for example). This method would allow them to balance and re-balance the abilities without affecting how powerful players are in combat.
• I'm pretty sure the current upgrade system was a WIP version until the full version was going to be completed so that'd be an easy candidate for KF3.
• The gore system has been notably gimped as time has gone on and is nothing like Early Access's gore. This could also be returned to in a sequel but not in KF2 as it stands.
• Sounds. KF1 had 32 max channels and KF2 only has 16(both by default but how many players know to edit a random ini?), meaning important sounds like Husk's charging their fireballs or eDAR Trappers charging their clot-grab beam sometimes just don't play at all and you suffer the consequences with no warning. KF2 is also missing EAX support, something that made sounds in KF1 sound different based on your surroundings and was a night-and-day difference. EAX was removed in Unreal Engine 3 but perhaps a replacement or similar implementation could be made in Unreal Engine 4/5. Whether or not it's related to the previous issues positional audio is generally non-existent in KF2. You're constantly getting attacked from silent zeds you didn't see coming. In KF1 you could hear every zed coming a mile away and you'd know if there was one behind you and what type it was, no question about it.
• A chance to make the game difficult without having to resort to artificial/unfair difficulty. This sort of change would require affecting too much code to happen at this point in KF2's life. It includes sources of difficulty players have no control over and very few tools to mitigate. Things like enrage spawns, <5m spawns, teleportation, the previously-mentioned lack of positional audio, and the whole spawn-with-a-tougher-version replacement system that gives us unending eDARs on Endless's "Stalker-only" waves.
• A chance to make changes to the game without worrying over affecting system requirements. Basically it'd be assumed KF3 would require more powerful hardware and with that the developers would be able to do more with the game. Maybe instead of a max of 16/32 concurrent zeds solo/multiplayer you could rebalance the game around 24/48, for example.

Good point ! I actually mentioned it numerous times before and apparently "forgot" about it this time. But yeah : they should greatly improve on the skill trees. I'm not asking for dozens of skills for every perk as it would be a balancing nightmare, but having at least 15-20 would be much better. And maybe not binary as you said, but having to choose from a "pool", so you could combine them in a lot of different ways. Right now, I pretty much never switch whichever skills I'm using...

Nothing to add regarding the upgrade system. I'm wondering why they bothered at that point. Either try to add a few things in KF2 or let it make its grand return in a sequel. Similarly to an expansion of the skill tree system, more customization regarding weapons would be greatly appreciated.

I'm a gorehound, but I am quite pleased with what they did in KF2... Do you have other ideas in mind to improve it? Besides increasing the gruesome details, I don't really see what could be improved tbh.

Never noticed that about sound, but that's a very good point ! I obviously know even less about the technical aspects, so I don't know if this would be doable in KF2 or if a full-blown sequel would be needed. But yeah, this should be tackled.

A million times yes about the difficulty. It's ridiculous how you can steamroll through the waves for the most part of a game only to get flattened in a matter of seconds just by some unlucky spawns. I'd just like to be able to be challenged and still find it fun. Right now, the only thing truly posing problems are swarms of zeds you can't deal with...

Finally as for technical aspects... Well, it's merely facts. Nothing to debate. Better equipment allows for better things... Better and more of them. So yeah. All in all : I agree with everything you just said.

TL;DR ?

 

[pie1055]

Good point ! I actually mentioned it numerous times before and apparently "forgot" about it this time. But yeah : they should greatly improve on the skill trees. I'm not asking for dozens of skills for every perk as it would be a balancing nightmare, but having at least 15-20 would be much better. And maybe not binary as you said, but having to choose from a "pool", so you could combine them in a lot of different ways. Right now, I pretty much never switch whichever skills I'm using...

Nothing to add regarding the upgrade system. I'm wondering why they bothered at that point. Either try to add a few things in KF2 or let it make its grand return in a sequel. Similarly to an expansion of the skill tree system, more customization regarding weapons would be greatly appreciated.

I'm a gorehound, but I am quite pleased with what they did in KF2... Do you have other ideas in mind to improve it? Besides increasing the gruesome details, I don't really see what could be improved tbh.

Never noticed that about sound, but that's a very good point ! I obviously know even less about the technical aspects, so I don't know if this would be doable in KF2 or if a full-blown sequel would be needed. But yeah, this should be tackled.

A million times yes about the difficulty. It's ridiculous how you can steamroll through the waves for the most part of a game only to get flattened in a matter of seconds just by some unlucky spawns. I'd just like to be able to be challenged and still find it fun. Right now, the only thing truly posing problems are swarms of zeds you can't deal with...

Finally as for technical aspects... Well, it's merely facts. Nothing to debate. Better equipment allows for better things... Better and more of them. So yeah. All in all : I agree with everything you just said.

TL;DR ?

Ugh, exactly about current perk skills. The only one I change is Support's spread vs penetration and that's simply based on which shotguns I'm using.

The other reason I mentioned expanding perk abilities and weapon customization is you could tie them both to current perk level. I think it would enhance the prestige system to reset a large number of unlockables and allow you to try different combinations or focus on different ones first as you go through the levels again. If it gets complex enough I could even see a system where each perk has loadouts you can save, so you could easily jump from My Commando Mk1(lv25) to My Commando Mk2(lv16), for example.

On gore I'm going mostly on what I've heard others say over the years but I'm pretty sure in EA you could cut zeds up with melee weapons into chunks based on the direction you swung. I'm fairly certain I remember downward strikes with the Katana slicing zeds down the middle and that not happening as of late. I think at some point they also removed the ability to inflict gore to dead zeds. While that initially sounds like a "why would someone do that in the middle of a match" sorta thing I think it has potential for bodies near sources of damage that are targeting nearby live zeds. An explosion could go off and further gib a zed's body that was only decapitated, for example. A flamethrower could lick a pile and "crisp" the bodies like it does with live ones. While minor and I'm unsure if this happened earlier or not, it'd also be nice if the zeds gibbed differently depending on the source of damage. Currently they feel like they always spawn the same gibs. In KF1 if you hit a zed with enough explosive power I'm pretty sure it wouldn't spawn gibs at all and instead turn into red mist(I made a fleshpound gauntlet weapon that did just that, actually). Complete liquefaction. Would save on processing collisions for the gibs at least. Gore is something you kinda don't actively notice so I'm unsure how much, if any of what I've stated is true about the current state of gore in KF2, although I will stand by the fact that it feels like what I've stated is true. It's also a lot of little details that do negatively impact performance and are mostly unnecessary for a game with gore in it as it still feels "good enough", but KF2 was marketed as being entirely focused on the three pillars of "Bullets, Blades, and Blood" so you'd think they'd ADD to the blood over the years, not LESSEN it.

On difficulty I feel like some problems in KF2 stem from changes made to the three main components of zeds- toughness, speed, and damage. In KF1 zeds were slow but dealt high damage and were tough due to the focus on headshots combined with hitboxes that change depending on if you play solo/host a listen server or play dedicated/join a listen server(and also being just a cylinder and a sphere was plain bad hitboxes to begin with). In KF2 each of these properties got flipped and now you have to deal with fast zeds that deal little damage and are frail. How do you make zeds like that more difficult? Due to their frailty and lack of damage you need them damaging players as much as possible, so you basically need to spawn them on top of players with no warning at all times. Due to this you usually die in KF2 when you get body-blocked and become unable to move, as opposed to messing up in KF1 and getting hit like three times in a row like a pathetic fng fresh meat lv0 sharpshooter noob. The way you lose in KF2 doesn't feel like it was your fault. It was the two Fleshpounds that wont let you slide by, or the open door you accidentally backed into that ended up getting you surrounded. And in those cases you almost always don't die immediately. It takes like 5-10 seconds of zeds hitting you nonstop before they finally finish you off, like they're trying to stab you to death with spoons. In KF3 I'd like to see zeds balanced out more like in KF1 so that their attacks are easily avoidable but if I mess up I get punished for it, because I should have been able to avoid the damage but failed to do so somehow. I hate how much zeds in KF2 feel like they're slapping you on the wrist, but constantly, and you only get into trouble if you forget to heal after they hit you 23 times because it'd be pointless to heal after only 5 minor hits, right?

Overall I am one of those types that prefers KF1(I can even reason why its terrible hitboxes can be a good thing) but I do recognize it'd be unwise at this point to make KF3 into KF1 HD because there are a lot of fans of KF2 and they shouldn't have to deal with a sequel that changes the game into something less recognizable to them even if KF1 fans did. Surely there should be a middle ground between KF1 and KF2 that makes a game better than both.

If your post has less words than mine usually do- it's not TL;DR, at least for me

 

[Edomaro]

I lurk the forums from time to time, and even comment here and there. But I like reading @Aleflippy 's comments because they tend to be unbiased and very accurate. I was reading about this KF 3 thing and what new it could do... I think what KF 2 lacked the most was real unlockables, like that's one of Call of Duty's most fun mechanics, it's all about playing with all the diferent guns, unlocking camos, attachments and whatnot. If KF 3 is going to be a thing, creating a fun unlockable system that REWARDS players for using different guns should be hella fun. And you can acutally implement the upgrades as part of the unlocks "Kill X amount of clots with headshots to unlock a reflex sight" or something... DUDE I'D BE SO DOWN FOR THAT . Takes me back when I used to binge Modern Warfare 1 and Modern Warfare 2, I remember unlocking EVERY SINGLE ATTACHMENT AND CAMO. Why not do something like that? And some campaigns that unlock characters and/or character outfits you know? But please do an incredibly insightful overhaul of the collectible inventory system because right now KF 2 inventory SUCKS SMELLY @$$, it has no way to organize, search for something specific or apply a real filter, and this is a nightmare for me because I have over 700 items from KF 2 according to my steam inventory.

While the reading was lengthy, I actually enjoyed it.

But yeah, those are my .02 cents.