Homogenization of perks and lack of hard counters

[Juizer]

Ah yes well, while there should be some fun for playing the highest level in the game you should also take into account that it is the vast minority of players who do play at that high difficulty.

Then you can play suicidal and just don't touch HoE and don't ask devs to make it easier. I'm not against making suicidal easier, but I find it pointless.

I just don't understand those who don't like that HoE is hard and at the same time don't want to pick easier difficulties.

 

[weeman2412]

There is impossible hard and frustration where the only way to win is to cheese, meta, and glitch to victory. Aka Diablo 3 Hell Mode on release, Far Cry 2, Counter Strike source Expert bots, and Killing Floor 2 HoE.

Then there is proper difficulty with proper balancing so that everyone who plays it finds it at least enjoyable and actually see a possibility of winning without cheesing, metaing, and glitching to victory. Examples includes Left 4 Dead 2 Realism mode, Killing Floor 1 HoE, Rainbow Six Vegas 1 and Vegas 2, Ghost Recon Advance Warfighter 2.

In about 95% of my HoE games, we always do one of the following. Zerk Wall, Safe Corridor Camping, Corner Camping, or all 3. The other 5% resulted in a wipe due to experimenting and testing stuff and not following the meta and "strategy."

 

[Juizer]

There is impossible hard and frustration where the only way to win is to cheese, meta, and glitch to victory. Aka Diablo 3 Hell Mode on release, Far Cry 2, Counter Strike source Expert bots, and Killing Floor 2 HoE.

Well, your problem is that you're projecting your inability to beat KF2 HoE without using all of these things. I used zerk wall only on Black Forest and we did it in third try simply because me and my friends hate this map and at the same time it's extremely easy to beat it that way and forget about it forever. I'd recommend tripwire to fix that spot.

We did not need to use any kind of abuses to beat any other map in reasonable amount of tries. You make too many mistakes - you wipe, that's easy to understand. Of course, there are some cheesy things in the game (i've not met a single game without cheesy things), but you definitely don't have to use it to beat HoE if you're any decent. If you can't beat HoE without it - it only means that you're not good enough.

 

[weeman2412]

You make too many mistakes - you wipe, that's easy to understand. Of course, there are some cheesy things in the game (i've not met a single game without cheesy things), but you definitely don't have to use it to beat HoE if you're any decent. If you can't beat HoE without it - it only means that you're not good enough.

Prove it, show me a game, where a 6 man team played through HoE without cheesing, zerk walling, and using a pure meta setup which always includes a berserker and medic. Spoiler: You can't because you're all talk.

Not asking for much, a team of 6 with any combination of commandos and support beating HoE while running around the map or simply sitting out in the open is good enough for me. Don't even need a full game, just show me wave 10 HoE.

You're not a real Killing Floor 2 player unless you play 6 Man 10 Wave long Hell on earth. Any other mode and player count is irrelevant to balance.

 

[Juizer]

Prove it, show me a game, where a 6 man team played through HoE without cheesing, zerk walling, and using a pure meta setup which always includes a berserker and medic. Spoiler: You can't because you're all talk.

Not asking for much, a team of 6 with any combination of commandos and support beating HoE while running around the map or simply sitting out in the open is good enough for me.

Such salty. It's pretty easy to do, actually. As I said, we didn't cheese any maps but black forest, and we've done farmhouse to the boss without both berserker and medic. You don't need berserker and medic to get to the boss, i hope that you're no that stupid to not understand that.

You're right in one thing (only one thing): it is harder (not impossible) to kill hans (hans =/= whole HoE difficulty) without berserker and medic. That's bad, I agree.

First of all, it's pretty easy without just berserker. Everyone can take hammer and just parry/block him. We can easily do it with just support/medic parrying, berserker is not required at all.

Second, i bet that its possible to beat hans using only 6 berserkers. I don't have 5 friends playing KF2 and only one of my friends plays berserker (and he is only lvl 10), but I'm sure it's possible, simply because it's easy to change aggro. So, medic is not required either.

Third, the word "meta". Your problem is that you don't understand that you can only blame yourself for using bad team compositions, not the "meta".

May be you're stupid enough to blame the game for not being able to beat it using only knives, because it forces you(oh my god!) to use t3-t4 weapons to beat it?

And if we're talking about Patty (you can beat HoE by killing Patty too if you didn't know) - then you don't even need a berserker and anybody with hammer/eviscerator at all. Medic is more than enough, and from my experience if you play carefully having med pistols is fine too.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Prove it, show me a game, where a 6 man team played through HoE without cheesing, zerk walling, and using a pure meta setup which always includes a berserker and medic.

What are you implying here? That a team should be able to do a HoE map simply without a zerk and medic? There is one, it's called kiting, and I've seen / experienced it; it requires an enormous amount of skill, map awareness, and top notch attentiveness. Outside of the elusive kool kidz klub where all the Killing Floor nobility congregate to indulge in such strategies, it's a rare experience. And before you ask, no I can't show you any such proof, I don't have recording technology and KF2 doesn't save replays.

Not asking for much, a team of 6 with any combination of commandos and support beating HoE while running around the map or simply sitting out in the open is good enough for me. Don't even need a full game, just show me wave 10 HoE.

If this game wasn't midway through completion I'd agree with you here. Zerks are not a requirement by any measure, but one medic sorta is. Needing a healer, it's an old video game thing that has become integral to certain genres.

I used zerk wall only on Black Forest and we did it in third try simply because me and my friends hate this map.

Saddest thing I've ever seen today. Black Forest is the best map for kiting.

 

[Juizer]

Saddest thing I've ever seen today. Black Forest is the best map for kiting.

May be it is, but all of us hate this map for some reason and we just wanted to get rid of that achievement. :'{

 

[Jr175]

Well, your problem is that you're projecting your inability to beat KF2 HoE without using all of these things.

I'm going to assume you're assuming this.

We did not need to use any kind of abuses to beat any other map in reasonable amount of tries. You make too many mistakes - you wipe, that's easy to understand. Of course, there are some cheesy things in the game (i've not met a single game without cheesy things), but you definitely don't have to use it to beat HoE if you're any decent.

This is unreasonable to believe though. There are few successful ways of playing HoE to win at all.

If you can't beat HoE without it - it only means that you're not good enough.

One of the things I know for sure is that HoE is too easy in some aspects, and too hard in others. Certain perk weapons and skills also affect how easy a game on HoE can be. Saying people aren't good enough is really pretentious and elitist in the context of an unbalanced difficulty.

You're not a real Killing Floor 2 player unless you play 6 Man 10 Wave long Hell on earth. Any other mode and player count is irrelevant to balance.

I love how only one half of this is true. I hope all of you know which half

What are you implying here? That a team should be able to do a HoE map simply without a zerk and medic? There is one, it's called kiting, and I've seen / experienced it; it requires an enormous amount of skill, map awareness, and top notch attentiveness. Outside of the elusive kool kidz klub where all the Killing Floor nobility congregate to indulge in such strategies, it's a rare experience.

• The way he phrased it, I'm pretty sure he meant that you can't win without zerk/med.
• Kiting is the least skillful method of playing the game. Period.
• Kiting isn't rare at all in pubs. Infact, I'm all but certain that is what those soloists do when they go off and kill everything or die like scrubs.

Edit:thanks for reminding me not to post at an hour I'm too tired for. When I say kiting is the least skillful I mean the kind where you just keep on running with perk bonuses while avoiding as much damage as possible while killing so few as opposed to killing as quickly as someone who stands their ground and tanking/supporting teammates. No, I am not unaware of exploiters, I simply chose to say kiting is a much worse offense. Because at least in one you get some form of cohesive teamwork from pubs. I should've been a bit more clear but camping done right is definitely not the lesser of the betters when compared to kiting done right. but they do have their respective ups and downs.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Kiting is the least skillful method of playing the game. Period.

(prenote: Just before I begin, this thread's gotten a little hot. I'm not trying to add to the fire here, just hoping you didn't really mean what you say.)

This statement cannot be serious. It cannot be. You're being intellectually dishonest simply to further your argument. Or you are completely unaware of zerkwalling. Or you think kiting is a zerk / medic only affair. Or you have yet to encounter the randomness of zed teleporting.

Or a combination of the above. I don't know. I'm just blown away by such a statement when zerkwalling virtually killed the HoE scene back in InD.

And actually, I will modify my statement where I claim kiting takes an enormous amount of skill. I was wrong there. It takes a substantial amount + in depth knowledge of the game's hidden mechanics.

 

[Escadin]

Prove it, show me a game, where a 6 man team played through HoE without cheesing, zerk walling, and using a pure meta setup which always includes a berserker and medic. Spoiler: You can't because you're all talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGx9liCJiic

There is a pretty huge difference between pub meta and what's actually possible.

 

[FoolishNinja]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGx9liCJiic

There is a pretty huge difference between pub meta and what's actually possible.

dude thats almost impossible to do with random people that have played the game for 10h and join HoE as level 25 mando.
The guys in the vid definetly know how to play this game and I bet they have more than 200h in KF2.

 

[Shambler]

dude thats almost impossible to do with random people that have played the game for 10h and join HoE as level 25 mando.
The guys in the vid definetly know how to play this game and I bet they have more than 200h in KF2.

Maybe HoE isn't meant to be beatable by random unskilled pubs?

 

[Escadin]

dude thats almost impossible to do with random people that have played the game for 10h and join HoE as level 25 mando.
The guys in the vid definetly know how to play this game and I bet they have more than 200h in KF2.

I don't see the adverse implication there. KF has always been a skill based game and they really push the teamplay aspect of it with KF2. Yes this means playing pubs sucks even more but then again would you rather hand out HoE 6p wins for free for anyone who didn't even accomplish a level 25 perk yet?

200h playtime just seems like the natural benchmark for anyone who is really is into the game. Everyone else is just passing through while enjoying the show and they can have that on any other difficulty.

 

[FoolishNinja]

200h playtime just seems like the natural benchmark for anyone who is really is into the game. Everyone else is just passing through while enjoying the show and they can have that on any other difficulty.

thats what i mean. People should join HoE, when they know what each perk and zed can do and what to avoid. But people that use the damn levelmap ruin it.
Yesterday I saw people as level 25 with 10h playtime. They didnt know **** and just enraged Sc and FPs. What I mean is, they were useless and this is destroying the fun of the game, since I play HoE only.

 

[weeman2412]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGx9liCJiic

There is a pretty huge difference between pub meta and what's actually possible.

Cool video, too bad that was when commando was playable and doesn't have messed up recoil.

 

[Juizer]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGx9liCJiic[/URL]

There is a pretty huge difference between pub meta and what's actually possible.

And it seems that they even didn't use a voice chat.

Also, about supports. Supports main problem is the lack of ammo. But can somebody imagine team of 6 supports having any problems with ammo?

All they have to do to gain access to additional 100 shells for AA-12 and 30 shells for DBS is to press E sometimes. One of them can take a hammer+DBS+AA-12 for additional SC/FP control.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Cool video, too bad that was when commando was playable and doesn't have messed up recoil.

Hate to ruin your hopes of a "fix", but that new recoil on the mando guns is how it was intended from the very beginning. It was simply bugged for the longest time and was just recently fixed. I don't like it either, it renders full auto on the SCAR virtually unusable.

 

[milez]

Elitism killed this game and their ego contributed so much in the development. They are legion, plain and simple.

 

[Escadin]

Elitism killed this game and their ego contributed so much in the development. They are legion, plain and simple.

Eh what?

 

[Munchiesaurus Rex]

(prenote: Just before I begin, this thread's gotten a little hot. I'm not trying to add to the fire here, just hoping you didn't really mean what you say.)

This statement cannot be serious. It cannot be. You're being intellectually dishonest simply to further your argument. Or you are completely unaware of zerkwalling. Or you think kiting is a zerk / medic only affair. Or you have yet to encounter the randomness of zed teleporting.

Or a combination of the above. I don't know. I'm just blown away by such a statement when zerkwalling virtually killed the HoE scene back in InD.

And actually, I will modify my statement where I claim kiting takes an enormous amount of skill. I was wrong there. It takes a substantial amount + in depth knowledge of the game's hidden mechanics.

I have to disagree with you. Kiting nor Camping or Zerk on a door or whatever requires skill whatsoever.

All you do in this game is run and shoot. There is no skillfull way of doing anything.

Kiting is really easy since the zeds teleport and you can kill only the ones in front of you untill there are only SC and FP left.

Camping is equally easy except the zeds are all over the place. Not like in KF1 where if you let the zeds close you are wiped, here zeds wallk right next to you and do nothing ...

Untill there are ways that skilled players can deal with mobs other than just run and shoot - KF2 will remain a casual FPS shooter for consoles. Untill there are actually hard to pull off combos in this game so that you have to really up your game in order to be able to pull them off perfectly in every situation KF2 will just be a circlejerk for cosmetics. Hey look at my golden skin that I got by spending my parents credit card money *dies on wave one* ...

I really hope TWI make difference between console release and PC release. Most of the problems with the game come from the fact that it is done with controller in mind. Ofcourse there will not be any hard to pull off combos, it is impossible to do them with controller.

Only time will tell, but seeing all the 1000 people playing in steam almost a year after release and the 10 000 people that gather when there is an update is telling me that things arent going so well and consoles will be the major income factor as long as RNG crates ... and all those things give me a pretty good idea of what to expect, and I expect KF2 to become a mediocre game with nothing different to offer.

You can see it in the workshop right now. Hundreaths of skins for the curator. Not a single map or mutator or anything in the normal workshop and if the people who can do mods and maps and such don't do it, then the game will never be as great as KF1 because those people made the game great.

As much as I hate to admit it KF2 is not my favorite game.