Homogenization of perks and lack of hard counters

[Quintuplin]

Well back to homogenization, here is how I see the direction classes need to go.

Those are some fascinating changes, some of which I agree with. I think the Zerk's evis really just needs the ammoless chainsaw and 100% sawblade shot accuracy. The increase in saw magazine size is rather bizarre.

Otherwise it's mostly a bunch of things that I'd love to play with, but could easily fit into the balance mod trap where "they're cool ideas, but not actually better"

As such my favorites of your suggestions are firebug and zerk. The microwave gun has always annoyed me since I just want the flamethrower all game.

Commando changes enough for me to be wary, medic has some very neat perks but they're all buffs and the perk doesn't need buffing... and support's survive skill is just a little too RPG for a shooty shooty gun game for my tastes. But I dunno, I guess if you're gonna do a perk tree right you have to go deeper into the RPG balance style.

Come to think of it, that makes me think that that is part of why KF2 feels less satisfying in many ways. With these branching skill trees, your class starts branching off into a modified role that doesn't necessarily fit what the elemental class is... and this is AFTER KF2 tore apart the core of some classes to make them into two. You just get this feeling of having more decisions, but less important ones.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

There has to be some measure of accounting for the current state of the playerbase when talking about "homogenization".

In my experience so far in ~750 hours in-game, there have been countless instances of:

• Demos not knowing that level 20 'nades actually stun fleshpounds
• Countless instances of people not knowing that medic weapons leg-stumble
• Berserkers either not knowing or not applying the knowledge that their EMP 'nade stores could have been thrown at the scrake instead of letting it charge through an entire team, laying waste to all in its path
• People magdumping FPs before the team has had a chance to heal up in that 10-14s breather

Long story short, I don't think the perks are homogenized so much as I think the playerbase doesn't know enough about the game - also how to apply that knowledge in ways that are most effective.

When I mentioned these issues in another thread, one poster stated it succinctly:

It comes with time

 

[Mr. Someguy]

Well back to homogenization, here is how I see the direction classes need to go.

As a Commando I am offended by these suggested changes.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

As a Commando I am offended by these suggested changes.

This, I cannot believe someone would want to be rid of Backup. It effectively makes mando invincible from waves 1-3, allowing him to rush the SCAR with ease.

Also, stay away from my Support's Tenacity.

 

[Icytor44]

Those are some fascinating changes, some of which I agree with. I think the Zerk's evis really just needs the ammoless chainsaw and 100% sawblade shot accuracy. The increase in saw magazine size is rather bizarre.


As such my favorites of your suggestions are firebug and zerk. The microwave gun has always annoyed me since I just want the flamethrower all game.

Commando changes enough for me to be wary, medic has some very neat perks but they're all buffs and the perk doesn't need buffing... and support's survive skill is just a little too RPG for a shooty shooty gun game for my tastes. But I dunno, I guess if you're gonna do a perk tree right you have to go deeper into the RPG balance style.

.

For the first bolded quote, I do agree and if I could edit the post I would have taken out the clip size increase. I might have instead meant capacity, but honestly I think just the previous changes were fine. Zerk I feel is actually in a weird spot where he is both good and almost teetering on too powerful because of his ability to parry and block reliably in games.

For the seconded bolded statement, I actually took that from the Demolition skill which is very similar, but put it on the support. With a 25% increase in shotgun damage I didn't believe he needed more perks to do more damage.

Commando changes were mainly to convey the teamwork part of Commando that seems to be what they were going for before, along with support. More surprised that people actually hated the removal of Tenacity and Back-up, since they don't really do anything that some passive level up increases couldn't do better. Or they forgot that Commando would have more ammo for almost all of his guns XD! Still good to know that people like those skills. Maybe increase the damage for Covering Fire to 10%? More of the skill meaning then the numbers, which could always be re-tweaked.

 

[captainyodels]

Long story short, I don't think the perks are homogenized so much as I think the playerbase doesn't know enough about the game - also how to apply that knowledge in ways that are most effective.

Then how come so many players that do know enough about the game are complaining about the homogenization?

I'm actually someone that plays with OP, but I could never pinpoint why I just did not enjoy playing. I can attest that he has a near perfect understanding of what makes KF enjoyable. We played recently and I realized that to level up my medic I needed to be killing more zeds than healing which is a baffling enough **** up on TW's part on its own.

Essentially, I support OP's assessment completely. I had neither the patience nor experience to dissect what made KF2 so unenjoyable, but he hit the nail right on the head.

 

[weeman2412]

Commando changes were mainly to convey the teamwork part of Commando that seems to be what they were going for before, along with support. More surprised that people actually hated the removal of Tenacity and Back-up, since they don't really do anything that some passive level up increases couldn't do better. Or they forgot that Commando would have more ammo for almost all of his guns XD! Still good to know that people like those skills. Maybe increase the damage for Covering Fire to 10%? More of the skill meaning then the numbers, which could always be re-tweaked.

Half measures when designing perks is the reason we ended up with dull boring perk abilities.

If commando is meant to be a team buffer, then go all in on his abilities to buff team mates powers while disabling his own abilities. Lose 50% weapon damage, buff all team mates weapon powers by 30%. These are the kind of extreme exchanges that change the dynamic of the game and adds for interesting plays. Another example, reload 2x slower during zed time, all team mates reload 2x faster during zed time.

Something interesting for the medic, carry no nades, healing ticks lowered by 35%, all homing syringes splits in to triplets and can target different players around the medic at the same time.

Support specialist, every 30 seconds the support specialist may drop one special ammo crate with ammo that offers a random selection of poison, burning, piercing, or explosive ammo for the player that picks it up for 15 seconds. The alternative is increased carry weight. How about that for tough decisions.

What we have right now is a bunch of boring and unoriginal perk abilities that all do the same thing. Run faster, jump higher, shoot harder, shoot faster. The stumbling is practically worthless with all these cool downs with no indicators. The only knock down that has any sort of guarantee is the gunslinger.

The state of the game is just sad.

 

[Mr. Someguy]

If commando is meant to be a team buffer, then go all in on his abilities to buff team mates powers while disabling his own abilities. Lose 50% weapon damage, buff all team mates weapon powers by 30%. These are the kind of extreme exchanges that change the dynamic of the game and adds for interesting plays. Another example, reload 2x slower during zed time, all team mates reload 2x faster during zed time.

This would just kill Commando, there's be no reason to play it over Firebug or Gunslinger, and most people already choose those classes over it. You just end up with a class who is completely ineffective at defending itself, **** damage and slow reloads. Sure everyone else is slightly stronger, but what do you do? Sit around and do nothing, because you can't do anything. At least the Medic has an active job, not a do-nothing passive.

 

[weeman2412]

This would just kill Commando, there's be no reason to play it over Firebug or Gunslinger, and most people already choose those classes over it. You just end up with a class who is completely ineffective at defending itself, **** damage and slow reloads. Sure everyone else is slightly stronger, but what do you do? Sit around and do nothing, because you can't do anything. At least the Medic has an active job, not a do-nothing passive.

That isn't the only leadership ability. Your damage is also boosted by 20% for each ally standing within 3 METERS. There are many ways to make leadership a very interesting gameplay concept. If everyone is just stacking on top of each other you basically do 2x more damage.

 

[Juizer]

...
stun locking SC's, instantly dying FP's, etc.

The only justified thing in your post is about welding being nearly useless. The only thing.

Everything else is just about that you don't like that game became harder in some aspects.

First when I read the topic I though that I will see something about siren resistance and that it makes demo too generic or something like that, but no, you just want the game to become easier.

 

[macready84464]

The only justified thing in your post is about welding being nearly useless. The only thing.

Everything else is just about that you don't like that game became harder in some aspects.

First when I read the topic I though that I will see something about siren resistance and that it makes demo too generic or something like that, but no, you just want the game to become easier.

What's wrong with the game being easier? You know on average only 1 percent of the owners of KF2 have even beaten a map on HOE? I want the game to be fun, and if you bother to read the entire thread you would see why. The game in its current state is an unguided mishmash of ideas and "improvements" on kf1 that have been mindlessly put together without regard for results or entertainment. Many of the mechanics or lack thereof result in an experience that many, if not most of the people who played KF1 find unsatisfying. And in a way yes I do want the game to be easier, on the easier difficulties. Many of the examples I gave were for the easier difficulties on KF1. There's no reason why the easier difficulties of KF2 can't have more "gamey" mechanics in it. HOE and suicidal can remain hard I don't care, I just think the game would see many more players if normal and hard were more fun, or in your words "easier". The current meta pushes away the average person who just wants to play some game and blow away monsters. There's no reason why HOE would even change, but the current amount of players KF2 has is painfully low considering they just had a sale and free weekend, and maybe you're alright with that but I want the game to last me another 1000+ hours like KF1 but at this point it's a chore to get myself to play. Most of the people I know that own KF1 and KF2 don't play on HOE or suicidal, they play on normal and hard and just want to have fun. But the current meta isn't "fun."

 

[infntnub]

You really hit the nail on the head. I have nothing else I want to add to what he said besides the fact that perk specialization is absolutely vital to the KF formula. I'm really hoping that Tripwire will devote some time to this issue next year when they say they will do a bunch of balancing.

This - so much this.

Although, don't get me wrong, I somewhat enjoy the added chaos caused by the need now for an entire group to focus on a FP or Scrake when they stroll in, but it's not the experience I had hoped for/expected based on my experiences in KF1...

I'd love to see the game go back to that formula.

I'm amongst the population who believes the addition of the sharpie will be accompanied with some rebalancing that will help achieve this.

 

[Icytor44]

I do agree, with the current trajectory of the game, I would like to have a priority put onto the classes and their skills above almost all else except for Hans.

As for "all-in leadership/support/etc." I can agree with the mindset, though not as much the suggestions given. Classes do need to fill a niche, but at minimum they should be able to play offline solo and not feel as if this would be an impossible task due to their lack of self-buffs.

But I would love commando to go all in. Have every single one of his perks give a small bonus to himself, and a larger bonus to allies. Or have support be able to specifically drop special ammo. Who knows. So long as the class retains a modicum of self-sustainment and power, those changes could be great.

 

[xmrmeow]

I completely agree. It's nice to have one or 2 jack of all trades like gunslinger, but it's going too far. Demo can spam down even single zeds without running out of ammo, but can only be another dps in the big picture when it comes to killing FPs, which he is supposed to hard counter. If Sharpshooter is just another ammo rich dps that can't kill scrakes/FPs efficiently, this game is gunna take another step down with a new update.

I completely support a nerf to crowd control perks' ability to heavily damage FPs and scrakes if the classes that are supposed to kill them were able to do just that/were in the game. Just a simple nerf to damage taken from certain sources to the FP and scrake, and a less ammo pool for more damage rework for demo as well as the addition of sharpshooter to the game would more than suffice. It would be a simple change that would make this game feel a lot more like a better version of the last game instead of better in some cases like graphics and mechanics for certain perks, but much worse in others.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

Then how come so many players that do know enough about the game are complaining about the homogenization?

Two things - first, there's so much discussion about how X perk is better than Y perk, how Z perk needs better passives blah blah blah. The list goes on. How can there be so much complaint about perk disparity at the same time as complaints about homogenization?

Secondly, I posit the following - it's more a matter of how you implement your knowledge of the game, with other players, than simply having said knowledge and doing nothing with it.


The game isn't suffering from homogenization in the slightest - it's suffering from players not banding together and helping each other out. Saying there's a lack of hard counters is a diversion from saying "I'd like to be able to solo a particular enemy so I don't have to rely on my team to help me".

It's the same with most perk complaints:

• "This Berserker nerf is absurd" translates to "I can't solo every enemy in the game anymore with my Zwei and Smash"
• "3 reasons to buff support" translates to "I'd like to be able to go nuts with my AA-12 on big zeds and not have to worry about ammo conservation"
• "Commando: the full-auto sadness discussion thread" basically translates to "I want more ammo, more penetration for Commando so I don't have to be accurate, fast and use my ammo in the most efficient manner"
• Even my own thread about Demo, deep down, was centred on the idea of wanting to be able to do the maximum damage to fleshpounds without intervention from other players - I call myself out for that

How about we move away from the KF1 concept of "teamwork" in terms of six individual players doing concurrent, self-aware roles, and start looking at what KF2's concept of teamwork is - which is six players having to be actively aware of, and mutually participate in the work of the entire team, including but not limited to:

• trash cleaning and crowd control
• healing team-mates
• big zed takedowns

The sooner the players really grasp this overall, the better the game's going to be.

 

[Senario]

Two things - first, there's so much discussion about how X perk is better than Y perk, how Z perk needs better passives blah blah blah. The list goes on. How can there be so much complaint about perk disparity at the same time as complaints about homogenization?

Secondly, I posit the following - it's more a matter of how you implement your knowledge of the game, with other players, than simply having said knowledge and doing nothing with it.


The game isn't suffering from homogenization in the slightest - it's suffering from players not banding together and helping each other out. Saying there's a lack of hard counters is a diversion from saying "I'd like to be able to solo a particular enemy so I don't have to rely on my team to help me".

It's the same with most perk complaints:

• "This Berserker nerf is absurd" translates to "I can't solo every enemy in the game anymore with my Zwei and Smash"
• "3 reasons to buff support" translates to "I'd like to be able to go nuts with my AA-12 on big zeds and not have to worry about ammo conservation"
• "Commando: the full-auto sadness discussion thread" basically translates to "I want more ammo, more penetration for Commando so I don't have to be accurate, fast and use my ammo in the most efficient manner"
• Even my own thread about Demo, deep down, was centred on the idea of wanting to be able to do the maximum damage to fleshpounds without intervention from other players - I call myself out for that

How about we move away from the KF1 concept of "teamwork" in terms of six individual players doing concurrent, self-aware roles, and start looking at what KF2's concept of teamwork is - which is six players having to be actively aware of, and mutually participate in the work of the entire team, including but not limited to:

• trash cleaning and crowd control
• healing team-mates
• big zed takedowns

The sooner the players really grasp this overall, the better the game's going to be.

You do have to take into account that people who played KF1 liked it for being exactly what it was, its version of teamwork included. While I would agree with trash cleaning and crowd control is a group responsibility having no perk specialize in killing big zeds means that if one or two people just don't see or don't react fast enough to start to take down the big zeds you will start losing people because they simply are too much of a bullet sponge. This also makes it a problem for most perks as they will run out of ammo to deal with trash because they used it on the big zeds. They can't even move around to collect ammo boxes because 1) you're competing with the rest of your team who also needs ammo and 2) the zed teleporting and pathing makes it somewhat difficult to safely move around and not lose a few people in the process.

Basically, by going through the new direction you stated they are in some ways alienating their fans. Of course there are different extremes to it but as it stands they just need to make all the perks feel like they are worth it to use for varying reasons without nerfing the current good ones, which make other perks the new "good", then nerfing them, and repeating.

 

[macready84464]

How about we move away from the KF1 concept of "teamwork" in terms of six individual players doing concurrent, self-aware roles, and start looking at what KF2's concept of teamwork is - which is six players having to be actively aware of, and mutually participate in the work of the entire team, including but not limited to:

• trash cleaning and crowd control
• healing team-mates
• big zed takedowns

The sooner the players really grasp this overall, the better the game's going to be.

How about if it ain't broke don't fix it? I don't understand why people keep reiterating the current meta's form of cooperation. I didn't start this thread because I can't beat a map on normal or something, I started this thread because KF2 is just not fun. I don't need to beat a map to have fun, I don't need to beat the game on any difficulty to have fun. This thread isn't about winning, it's about TW choosing to disregard everything they learned about what players like in KF1 and trying too many things at once in KF2. The current meta is alienating to new players, the gameplay is unrewarding, and the amount of current players shows. Telling everyone to change their attitude after posing legitimate complaints is little more than sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling. And if new players can't enjoy the game on their own then the amount of people playing KF2 will only continually drop.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

You do have to take into account that people who played KF1 liked it for being exactly what it was, its version of teamwork included.

I agree, I bought KF2 because I loved KF1. If I want the KF1 experience, I click it and play it.

While I would agree with trash cleaning and crowd control is a group responsibility having no perk specialize in killing big zeds means that if one or two people just don't see or don't react fast enough to start to take down the big zeds you will start losing people because they simply are too much of a bullet sponge.

I disagree that any enemy is bullet spongy as such. For starters, scrakes don't take a lot of headshot damage to be killed. Here's a 6-player HoE scrake:

https://youtu.be/wdXdGjnbKLI[url]https://youtu.be/wdXdGjnbKLI[/URL]

It does have a hard counter in the Gunslinger. It has another means of being countered via headshot with EMP and any high-DPS ballistic weapon.

Fleshpounds don't technically have a hard counter on the highest difficulty - however, on 6-player Hard difficulty, it takes [from a level 25 Demo]:

• 2 C4, 1 Demo 'nade, 1 RPG; or
• 1 C4, 1 Demo 'nade, 2 RPG

to kill a fleshpound outright. This combination is easy to apply if you use the game mechanics reasonably well.

This also makes it a problem for most perks as they will run out of ammo to deal with trash because they used it on the big zeds.

Why would "most perks" be firing at a fleshpound if the Demo and the Zerk are doing their job? Commando, Support and Gunslinger shouldn't really need to fire at a single-spawn fleshpound unless something's gone dramatically wrong. Unless you don't have players running either of these perks, in which case I'm confused as to why anyone would blame the game when it's the players not selecting perks well-suited to certain tasks.

 

[FoolishNinja]

almost all perk skills arent good. you use some skills like backup for mando only for the first 3/4 waves. after that you change to the normal standard perk skills. same goes for zerker and firebug. there should be sone different builds for the whole match, not temporary skills that are only usefull for few waves. there is no free room to create intersting and different gameplay. the perk skills are just passive skills...

 

[Jr175]

I disagree that any enemy is bullet spongy as such. For starters, scrakes don't take a lot of headshot damage to be killed. Here's a 6-player hoe scrake:

But scrakes are laughably easy in comparison to fleshpounds. They don't share the same Head or body health to begin with. Not even the resistances.
Scrakes are also a lot more predictable without the random rage mechanic.

Fleshpounds don't technically have a hard counter on the highest difficulty - however, on 6-player hard difficulty, it takes [from a level 25 demo]:

• 2 c4, 1 demo 'nade, 1 rpg; or
• 1 c4, 1 demo 'nade, 2 rpg

to kill a fleshpound outright. This combination is easy to apply if you use the game mechanics reasonably well.

Do you want to know what a trained gunslinger can do on HoE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuWbZdIacR4
and no damage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5tcmRMqbQU
A demo could only wish to do this on HoE without dying.

Why would "most perks" be firing at a fleshpound if the demo and the zerk are doing their job? Commando, support and gunslinger shouldn't really need to fire at a single-spawn fleshpound unless something's gone dramatically wrong. Unless you don't have players running either of these perks, in which case i'm confused as to why anyone would blame the game when it's the players not selecting perks well-suited to certain tasks.

Because of different contexts. Not every team will have 6 players and not every team will have a certain perk picked and readily available. Let's not forget 3 more perks are planned, coming to a total of 10 to pick in a match with 6 slots. God forbid 2 people want to go the same perk instead of picking the, "prerequisite perks" or just not wanting to play certain perks at all. Right?