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Historically incurrate ww2 series?

The existence of the 1st Allied Airborne Army made MG, or something like it, inevitable. There was no way these troops would have been allowed to linger in England for much longer. Aircraft capacity limits demanded they be used in 21st AG's area. Ergo, MG was going to happen, no matter who was in command.


So better to throw away men's lives in an operation just for the sake of it? I find it hard to believe all commanders would have agreed with you there, especially during the actual period we are discussing. In fact there were plenty of commanders who objected to Market Garden.


The fact is there were other options, you make it sound as if Market Garden was inevitable, how would we be able to even possibly determine that? I mean I lost my crystal ball yesterday so.... :D


From what I understand, your logic is that the mere existence of Airborne forces on reserve in England necessitated the operation? We simply cannot make such a broad statement, especially since war is an evolving process. I.e. if Market Garden had not happend, there would have been other circumstances arising which would have lead to different strategic decisions, there was no way that at the highest levels of command that it was held as inevitable that the Airborne forces had to be used in that sector...there was actually fervent debate on teh subject.


BTW This is typical English military folly.

The same folly that results in things like the Charge of the Light Brigade, basically boiling down to that you have men, you have the enemy, so if nothign else is going on, you might as well send them into a meat grinder head on, simply because you have something to put through the meat grinder.


We have beef....so lets make some hamburger, no sense in letting it sit. Bah.



Besides, even IF Market Garden was inevitable, the details of it were still resultign from Monty's thinking. The ambitions of the operation, and how it would be carried out, were germinated under his watch, there was no inevitability to the particulars of how the operation would go down.







This is the main thing about Monty, because as you say if we account for numerical advanatage many commanders are brought down a notch.

But there are other factors, like using tactical and strategic acumen.


Monty does not have a very illustrious history of using either. Alamein was an extremely strightforward operation, simply consisting of builidng up massive reserves, a large openign barrage, clearing mine zones, and then a tank assault.


In neither Sicily nor Normandy was there any brilliant flash of tactical success on his part, and Market Garden is then left of course as his strategic brainchild. Market Garden was fundamentally flawed.

The entire operation's success hinged upon a single armored force making their way over long range, through enemy territory, up a single, narrow road. There were no other mechanzied forces moving forward, the Germans could bottleneck the single force on this road and delay them the entire way.


If military history teaches us anything, it is that plans which are exceedingly rigid and don't allow for contigencies are almost certainly doomed to fail. Underestimating your enemy has historically always resulted in woe as well.

Market Garden was such a plan. It presupposed success based upon the very arrogant notion that XXX Corps would achieve complete surprise and speed with minimal German opposition. It contained no contingencies if XXX Corps was held up, leaving the "airborne carpet" entirely cut off. All that was needed for Market Garden to fail was for one single portion to not work as intended, and when this happened, it indeed failed.
 
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We can't help it if Americans woop ass... and our troops have never really been valued by their brittish counterparts. "the Americans are overpayed, oversexed, and over here" this is the quote from WW2 that sticks with me over all others. And how many times now have we saved the Crown?

Meh...let bye gones be bye gones.

And as to Yanks being overly Patriotic, I would feel sorry for any man who didn't love his country like we love ours... thinking of our history brings a tear to my eye, especially since my family has been here since the French Indian War and helped found this country.
 
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Bolt said:
Are you.. are you serious?? Oh my god, that's a huge irony: this phrase you said was popular in 60-70 in USSR. People awoke in the middle of the night crying because of the fact that they live in such a great country...
Yea, I feel sorry for those guys...

I am not the only American to feel this way about our land...
IronEyesCody.jpg

People start pollution'
people can stop it.
 
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Nevermind.
Just to me this US patriotism is more of peacockery (i think that's the word, i might be wrong because of my english) than true deep feeling. I think every normal man would try to do everything for his country, but when there is need (war, for example). Look at finns. When war came to their home, they did not call their food freedom fries, they did not put their flags everywhere they could, instead they just did everything possible to save their motherland. That's the real patriots.
 
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Bolt said:
Nevermind.
Just to me this US patriotism is more of peacockery (i think that's the word, i might be wrong because of my english) than true deep feeling. I think every normal man would try to do everything for his country, but when there is need (war, for example). Look at finns. When war came to their home, they did not call their food freedom fries, they did not put their flags everywhere they could, instead they just did everything possible to save their motherland. That's the real patriots.
IA, finns are pretty cool.

Nothing wrong with being patriotic, there's something wrong with being extremely patriotic/nationalistic/etc. Every man is proud of his country, no matter how others look upon it.

"Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right".
Arthur Schopenhauer
 
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Nothing wrong with being patriotic, there's something wrong with being extremely patriotic/nationalistic/etc
Absolutely agree with you. Just in my mind, it's better if you are patriot on the inside (that is, you don't show this to all people around you) than on the outside (red-white-and-blue everywhere where is possible. "people, look, i love my country!").
 
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Bolt said:
Nevermind.
Just to me this US patriotism is more of peacockery (i think that's the word, i might be wrong because of my english) than true deep feeling. I think every normal man would try to do everything for his country, but when there is need (war, for example). Look at finns. When war came to their home, they did not call their food freedom fries, they did not put their flags everywhere they could, instead they just did everything possible to save their motherland. That's the real patriots.
Meh no worries mate, but if that is your perception... then you know about as much about the USA, as I know about Lithuania. :D
 
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Well, my sister has been working somewhere in Boston area for some time. How about your relatives, did they work somewhere near Kaunas? :D Just joking, i don't mean to be rude.
It's just that you don't see such actions (flag on every house, every car, bumper badges with patriotic slogans etc) here a lot, so that's quite strange to me. Must be other mentality. If you really love US, and not just showing off, there is no problem with me.
 
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Heldentod said:
i would not call the american love for their country "patriotism", i would call it "pre-nationalism"
How could some one not Love our Basic Foundation:
Preamble

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life. Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.


This means that Men are judged from their deeds, and not who their Father was. And a persons Rights are recognized and guaranteed by this document, given by 'The Creator" which means no Man or King has any right to take away or infringe upon these Divine Blessings.



If we were "Nationalists" we would have assimilated Canada and Mexico a long time ago. Not to mention we gave Germany back to the Germans, and supported the re-Unifacation of East and West Germany. The same goes for Japan.
 
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Pre-nationalism? Nationalism is not a "state of being," thus you can't have "pre " and "post" nationalism.





Anyway, this argument is a two way street regarding over-done patriotism.


I mean, the United States was engaged against Nazi Germany, which put a dictator into power riding on the waves of fervent nationalism.

When the Germans lost the war, it seems silly to then critique Americans for having over exuberant patriotism and "dissrespecting" the Germans.


I mean I am sorry but I am just going to be frank: at least our nationalistic fervor was in support of liberating conquered peoples not rooted in a desire to take over others and to completely eradicate entire populations.






As of late, I think many Americans are characterized by a misguided patriotism, one which justifies imperialisitc behavior. However, you must deal with each moment in history on its own basis. In WWII, America was not involved for imperialistic reasons, and the patriotism displayed by our fighting men and women was wholly genuine and did a great service to the rest of the world.











Finally, this talk of Americans "disrespecting" their enemies is pure BS. In Band of Brothers, those events are taken from the actual after action reports.

It isn't Steven Ambrose's or anyone elses' fault that the Germans were using large numbers of old men and young boys at some of those engagements, that is just the facts of the actual historical situations.


Besides, look at the other thigns in the series which depict Germans fighting very well, like at Foy or that one village (can't remember the name, the episdoe where Bull has to hide in the barn) where the Americans and Brits are routed and must withdraw.


And of course, the end episode, where it depicts Winters and others treating the German officers that surrender with upmost respect, as the senior German commander in the area gives his men a farewell address.


How was any of that "disrespectful?"






What I feel like saying, as an American, is that I am tired of Europeans complaining about American disrespect, and that you are actually all lucky were weren't as evil as you think.

At the end of the war, we stood at a position of immense power. We were the only nuclear nation. We could have domiated the entire earth and put you all under our boot heel. Economically and politically, America has indeed reached out over the entire span of the globe and till this day holds the reins in these sectors, but one thing we did not do was enslave or kill for the sake of building a "Greater American Reich."




I mean just ponder this for a minute: what if the United States had dealt with Germany in the same manner in which Germany had dealt with its vanquished foes? What if Americans rounded up Germans, stole their property, shot them and threw them into pits, made them work off the war debt by manual labor in chains, and forever held control over German lands?

No. Instead we poured millions of dollars into rebuilding, sent our miltary forces to defend West Germany, did the Berlin Airlift for God's sake...and then all of that is a sign of a disrespctful people? Just because we have a few movies where it shows Germans losing? What kind of twisted psychologies do some of you guys have?


Same thing with the Japanese. We didn't have to "ask" them to use their islands for bases post-war: we could have just killed off the entire population (and in fact there were quite a few Americans that wanted to do just that). But no, we didn't deal with the Japanese as they had dealt with their enemies.


In victory we were compassionate and tolerant, and that is something that no one can erase regardless of what happens in the future.

America will forever be remembered in history for this: at no other time in human existence has one people held so much power and yet been so benevolent. Of course there have been stains on our record, and as I said within the last few years the United States has been involved in some very dispicable things, but for over 60 years now our example has been unique and should be awe inspiring.
 
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kabex said:
There's a reason why American tourists are hated the most throughout the world. :D :D :D

Okay, this thread is now becoming a huge flame war and I think I started it. I was kidding. :(

People can't take a joke, you know?
No offence, but if "We' did not visit Mexico, your country would be even poor'er than it is now. Not to mention more Mexicans have high-paying jobs in the USA than they do in Mexico. If we traded "La Rassa" California for Mexico, in ten years Mexico would be the richest State in the Union, and California would be in a Fatal economic decline.

Or not?
 
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BuddyLee said:
No offence, but if "We' did not visit Mexico, your country would be even poor'er than it is now. Not to mention more Mexicans have high-paying jobs in the USA than they do in Mexico. If we traded "La Rassa" California for Mexico, in ten years Mexico would be the richest State in the Union, and California would be in a Fatal economic decline.

Or not?
Nope. Mexico is one of the strongest economies in the entire world.

It is an economic power. Tourism actually is a small part of our economy, we are a heavily industrialized nation with a very educated population.

We suffer poverty because unlike the Americans, we did not massively slaughter the Amerindian population. We gave them equal rights to white citizens since centuries ago. We had our first Amerindian president in the 19th century, where is your black president? Native American president?

I believe tourism accounts for like 8% of our industry. By the way, the United States of America depends as much on Mexico as we depend on you, economically.

We're both very close trading partners, of equal importance to each other. Mexico's Gross Domestic Product is around $700 billion USD, or 1 trillion USD in Purchasing Power Parity(relative number, commonly used tool of measurement to compare different countries). The USA's is 11 trillion.

Considering 50% of the worlds currency is USD and noting the USA's complete hegemony over the world(and 3x the population), we're not doing bad.

Quit the "lol Mexico your country is worthless" attitude. At least my country isn't hated by the entire world for being completely incompetent and an embarrassment to itself.

We do not need the help of the US for anything. Sure, our economies help each other but we can seek other markets. We actually stopped collaborating with the US militarily and lost our military aid, we don't need it.
We've always stood alone, denying any allegiance to our northern neighbor. We criticized the invasion of Iraq, along with countless other things.

When you talk about giving back California, well, you have to remember that those were our states. That the USA fought one of the most unjust wars in modern history against us.

By the way, our country right now is the epitome of democracy, while yours is a complete joke.

I am just trying to educate here. ;)
 
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