Hey Ramm-Jaeger what happened to hero status & MkB42H/AVT40 being rare weapons?

[Golf33]

I think it's a real shame that there aren't greater differences between realism & arcade modes. As far as I can tell the only diff is a few bits of HUD info. Big deal. Even kill cam is a server ini setting, instead of being off by default in the 'realistic' setting.

Would it have broken anything really to make the realism mode actually realistic, by imposing a few reasonable limits on the fantasy weapons?

 

[melipone]

Why not change "Elite Rifleman" to just "Elite Soldier". I mean the Mkb plays like a Semi auto but also with decent full auto use at short to medium range. The AVT is just a semi with a less useful full auto element. Let people choose either SVT or AVT, G41 or Mkb. I wouldn't mind seeing that actual class slot reduced in addition to this. 1-2 per team. Then you would have a small number of Mkb's, sometimes none at all if someone prefers G41. Same with AVT. The assault class would then feel like a unique class rather than a way to put more semi type guns in.

Going further, I would then give Squad Leaders SMG's only and probably reduce them by a couple. People take them just for the semi rather than to act as the mobile spawn point/smoker/arty spotter, and I'd rather have SMG's than Semi rifles tbh. Semi's are too similar to the bolt role. I might then tweak the SMG's a bit, just to make them a little harder to use well.

 

[Blainy]

Why not change "Elite Rifleman" to just "Elite Soldier". I mean the Mkb plays like a Semi auto but also with decent full auto use at short to medium range. The AVT is just a semi with a less useful full auto element. Let people choose either SVT or AVT, G41 or Mkb. I wouldn't mind seeing that actual class slot reduced in addition to this. 1-2 per team. Then you would have a small number of Mkb's, sometimes none at all if someone prefers G41. Same with AVT. The assault class would then feel like a unique class rather than a way to put more semi type guns in.

Going further, I would then give Squad Leaders SMG's only and probably reduce them by a couple. People take them just for the semi rather than to act as the mobile spawn point/smoker/arty spotter, and I'd rather have SMG's than Semi rifles tbh. Semi's are too similar to the bolt role. I might then tweak the SMG's a bit, just to make them a little harder to use well.

It would make less semi autos and assault rifles/smgs about. There should be around 2-4 who can use MKB/AVT, 2-4 smgs, 2-4 semi autos (including squad leaders) per game. Thats a total of 6-12 out of the 64 giving the minimum of 48 using rifles, mgs, anti tank rifles and the 1/2 snipers per team.

It should be around half the team with rifles and yeah i know that in Stalingrad smg tactics, blah blah, machine gun tactics, blah blah. But MKB and AVT were both rare weapons so realism was thrown out of the window.

What I'm asking for were those matches on the Leningrad map on RO1. Rifles -big part. I'm surprised they took out the carbines and fixed bayonets.

This game in my opinion, is a very good game but with a few improvements that 'good game' could turn into a 'great game'.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

i'm very disappointed you decided to include the mkb42 for all assault classes, and i really don't think it's a reasonable comparison to say that ro1 included the mp41 and the ppd40.

The mp41 wasn't different to the mp40 - only an aesthetic difference (correct me if i am wrong), and it was only available to the squad leader class on standard maps (iirc).

The ppd40 was in service with the soviet army for years before the outbreak of the war, so whilst it may have been rare due to it's low production number, or never mass produced like the ppsh41 i imagine it still existed in significantly higher number than the mkb42 ever did - it was a standard issue weapon at one time or another.

Also - the mp41 and the ppd40 are not game changers, in rost the mp41 is an mp40 and the ppd wasn't drastically different from the ppsh41.

We can all agree that the inclusion of the mkb42 to the german assault class is a very significant game changing weapon.

i'm not saying it is "game breaking" to add them in the manner in which you have, but it has a dramatic impact on the game in comparison with the loadouts i had been playing since the beta started - i personally had a much better time playing ro:hos before these "rare" weapons were added.

After all you've done over the years with your integrity and respect for the source material (so to speak) how can you turn around and make an extremely rare prototype weapon as readily available as the mp40 (same applies to the avt and ppsh41)? Especially when it doesn't add anything to the game - all i can see happening is you losing some of the respect you've earned from your previous approach. It makes no sense to portray stalingrad in such a detailed and realistic way and then turn around and stick in something like this in this way with no historical consideration.

Judging by the number of threads in these forums about the effectiveness of the mp40, smg accuracy, and the generally faster pacing (certainly in comparison with rost) the last thing you'd think the community wanted, or needed was the "rare" weapons to be as readily available as they are.

I'm not really going to get onto how you changed your mind mid-development as you are entitled to do that - it's your game and your development studio - but i am really quite saddened that you decided to do so and that you decided to keep it to yourself until post-release considering how much of a big deal for the (original, and new) forum community it was when the "rare" weapons were announced. It's historically largely nonsense, and you went back on your previously stated plan for implementation for no real gain - i mean, can you tell me how the game benefits?

q-f-t.

 

[hockeywarrior]

I'm very disappointed you decided to include the Mkb42 for all assault classes, and I really don't think it's a reasonable comparison to say that RO1 included the MP41 and the PPD40.

The MP41 wasn't different to the MP40 - only an aesthetic difference (correct me if I am wrong), and it was only available to the squad leader class on standard maps (iirc).

The PPD40 was in service with the Soviet army for years before the outbreak of the war, so whilst it may have been rare due to it's low production number, or never mass produced like the PPSH41 I imagine it still existed in significantly higher number than the MKb42 ever did - it was a standard issue weapon at one time or another.

Also - the MP41 and the PPD40 are not game changers, in RO:Ost the MP41 is an MP40 and the PPD wasn't drastically different from the PPSH41.

We can all agree that the inclusion of the MKb42 to the German assault class is a very significant game changing weapon.

I'm not saying it is "game breaking" to add them in the manner in which you have, but it has a dramatic impact on the game in comparison with the loadouts I had been playing since the beta started - I personally had a much better time playing RO:HOS before these "rare" weapons were added.

After all you've done over the years with your integrity and respect for the source material (so to speak) how can you turn around and make an extremely rare prototype weapon as readily available as the MP40 (same applies to the AVT and PPSH41)? Especially when it doesn't add anything to the game - all I can see happening is you losing some of the respect you've earned from your previous approach. It makes no sense to portray Stalingrad in such a detailed and realistic way and then turn around and stick in something like this in this way with no historical consideration.

Judging by the number of threads in these forums about the effectiveness of the MP40, SMG accuracy, and the generally faster pacing (certainly in comparison with RO:Ost) the last thing you'd think the community wanted, or needed was the "rare" weapons to be as readily available as they are.

I'm not really going to get onto how you changed your mind mid-development as you are entitled to do that - it's your game and your development studio - but I am really quite saddened that you decided to do so and that you decided to keep it to yourself until post-release considering how much of a big deal for the (original, and new) forum community it was when the "rare" weapons were announced. It's historically largely nonsense, and you went back on your previously stated plan for implementation for no real gain - I mean, can you tell me how the game benefits?

I couldn't agree more. At this point I'm done arguing about this -- I've said all that I need to say, and people can read my billions of past posts to get my thoughts, if they care. I'll just steal other peoples' like-minded posts from now on Luckily, there are countless to choose from.

 

[LoneMerc2]

I'm very disappointed you decided to include the Mkb42 for all assault classes, and I really don't think it's a reasonable comparison to say that RO1 included the MP41 and the PPD40.

The MP41 wasn't different to the MP40 - only an aesthetic difference (correct me if I am wrong), and it was only available to the squad leader class on standard maps (iirc).

The PPD40 was in service with the Soviet army for years before the outbreak of the war, so whilst it may have been rare due to it's low production number, or never mass produced like the PPSH41 I imagine it still existed in significantly higher number than the MKb42 ever did - it was a standard issue weapon at one time or another.

Also - the MP41 and the PPD40 are not game changers, in RO:Ost the MP41 is an MP40 and the PPD wasn't drastically different from the PPSH41.

We can all agree that the inclusion of the MKb42 to the German assault class is a very significant game changing weapon.

I'm not saying it is "game breaking" to add them in the manner in which you have, but it has a dramatic impact on the game in comparison with the loadouts I had been playing since the beta started - I personally had a much better time playing RO:HOS before these "rare" weapons were added.

After all you've done over the years with your integrity and respect for the source material (so to speak) how can you turn around and make an extremely rare prototype weapon as readily available as the MP40 (same applies to the AVT and PPSH41)? Especially when it doesn't add anything to the game - all I can see happening is you losing some of the respect you've earned from your previous approach. It makes no sense to portray Stalingrad in such a detailed and realistic way and then turn around and stick in something like this in this way with no historical consideration.

Judging by the number of threads in these forums about the effectiveness of the MP40, SMG accuracy, and the generally faster pacing (certainly in comparison with RO:Ost) the last thing you'd think the community wanted, or needed was the "rare" weapons to be as readily available as they are.

I'm not really going to get onto how you changed your mind mid-development as you are entitled to do that - it's your game and your development studio - but I am really quite saddened that you decided to do so and that you decided to keep it to yourself until post-release considering how much of a big deal for the (original, and new) forum community it was when the "rare" weapons were announced. It's historically largely nonsense, and you went back on your previously stated plan for implementation for no real gain - I mean, can you tell me how the game benefits?

Great post, I completely agree!

 

[Rumo]

...

QFT! I hope John will read it and think about his decisions done lately.

 

[ComeAndSee]

The STG44 from RO1 isn't nearly as powerful as the MKB is in RO2 considering how much closer the battles are and easier it is to shoot. It has a 30 round magazine, little to no recoil, strong wall penetration, and is extremely accurate to the point its a 30-round G41 in semi-auto. I've watched time and time again as somebody with a MKB walks into a room, sprays down the entire room, and kills everyone inside and two people through a wall. It's such a one-sided advantage because the Russian's have to EARN their PPSH drums which were standard issue in their armies.

Also, the AVT-40 was just an extreme experimental prototype by changing the trigger group + assembly and there's no way that it could realistically handle repeated full-auto with the oversized 7.62x54R rounds without ruining itself. The AVT-40 itself in-game isn't much different than the SVT-40 because of its horrendous recoil on full auto so that's why nobody seems to complain about that as much.

 

[Conscript]

I'm very disappointed you decided to include the Mkb42 for all assault classes, and I really don't think it's a reasonable comparison to say that RO1 included the MP41 and the PPD40.

The MP41 wasn't different to the MP40 - only an aesthetic difference (correct me if I am wrong), and it was only available to the squad leader class on standard maps (iirc).

The PPD40 was in service with the Soviet army for years before the outbreak of the war, so whilst it may have been rare due to it's low production number, or never mass produced like the PPSH41 I imagine it still existed in significantly higher number than the MKb42 ever did - it was a standard issue weapon at one time or another.

Also - the MP41 and the PPD40 are not game changers, in RO:Ost the MP41 is an MP40 and the PPD wasn't drastically different from the PPSH41.

We can all agree that the inclusion of the MKb42 to the German assault class is a very significant game changing weapon.

I'm not saying it is "game breaking" to add them in the manner in which you have, but it has a dramatic impact on the game in comparison with the loadouts I had been playing since the beta started - I personally had a much better time playing RO:HOS before these "rare" weapons were added.

After all you've done over the years with your integrity and respect for the source material (so to speak) how can you turn around and make an extremely rare prototype weapon as readily available as the MP40 (same applies to the AVT and PPSH41)? Especially when it doesn't add anything to the game - all I can see happening is you losing some of the respect you've earned from your previous approach. It makes no sense to portray Stalingrad in such a detailed and realistic way and then turn around and stick in something like this in this way with no historical consideration.

Judging by the number of threads in these forums about the effectiveness of the MP40, SMG accuracy, and the generally faster pacing (certainly in comparison with RO:Ost) the last thing you'd think the community wanted, or needed was the "rare" weapons to be as readily available as they are.

I'm not really going to get onto how you changed your mind mid-development as you are entitled to do that - it's your game and your development studio - but I am really quite saddened that you decided to do so and that you decided to keep it to yourself until post-release considering how much of a big deal for the (original, and new) forum community it was when the "rare" weapons were announced. It's historically largely nonsense, and you went back on your previously stated plan for implementation for no real gain - I mean, can you tell me how the game benefits?

An excellent post, well said. I agree with all of that.

 

[Keyser_Söze]

Given the player count of the game lately & the # of responses in this thread it's hard to believe Tripwire can't admit a mistake was made. I simply cannot believe that including the mkb/avt sold a single extra copy of the game. In fact, it probably cost you some sales with the realism crowd.

 

[Uffz.Juschkat]

POST

Awesome post SheepDip! Very diplomatic and level headed, unlike many posts where people are very reasonably upset including myself. I think if I am to respond now I would get banned or put on "vacation", because I am very upset with what the devs have done. So again, thanks for being reasonable! Hopefully it will go further than our rage posts... but with the way things are being handled I really have my doubts.

 

[Serrow]

Anyone with a ppsh that loses to an Mkb in close-quarters really needs to just get better with the ppsh.

Blaming the lack of a drum is just plain silly, what, you not have twice as much ammunition in your gun causes you to just instantaneously die?

 

[ComeAndSee]

Anyone with a ppsh that loses to an Mkb in close-quarters really needs to just get better with the ppsh.

Blaming the lack of a drum is just plain silly, what, you not have twice as much ammunition in your gun causes you to just instantaneously die?

It's the mere fact that you have to earn 1000 kills to get a weapon that is on-par with the power output of a small squad of MKBs. The MKB is in a league of its own because it switches from a G-41 and MP40 by pressing your 6 key while the PPSH is basically a spray-and-pray CQB weapon.

Also, in that situation the MKB gunner would just bayonet the PPSH.

 

[Uffz.Juschkat]

Anyone with a ppsh that loses to an Mkb in close-quarters really needs to just get better with the ppsh.

Blaming the lack of a drum is just plain silly, what, you not have twice as much ammunition in your gun causes you to just instantaneously die?

This is the crap I'm talking about... You don't get it man you're completely lost as to why people are upset in the first place... Its not about getting better with the Ppsh... its about being realistic, and historically correct. First the Ppsh WAS given to soldiers with the drum mag not the stick mag. Second the recoil on the Ppsh is still very reminiscent of RO1. Making it harder to use in CQB and even mid-range. Third the Mkb wasn't in Stalingrad... and even for game play sake they didn't limit it to one role like they said... So please stop confusing the argument.

 

[DingDong09]

Ive been playing the game more and enjoying it now that it's less bug filled. I am also beginning to understand why they preferred to give everyone an auto or semi - the hit detection isn't very good , with automatic/semi weapons that problem is less noticeable.

 

[shadowmoses]

how many COD and BF games came and went and were never able to kill RO1. When you offer players something unique that they can't get anywhere else, there is always a market.

The unique game market was RO1...and then you put out RO2. RO2 is too far into the mainstream gameplay for realism guys and not enough in the arcade shooter range for everyone else. You give all these people on the forum lip and nit pic what the members are saying and tell them that they are wrong and so on, but at the end of the day the majority of these guys on the Forum are here because they LOVE red orchestra and they are seriously and vocally disappointed (who ever they may be) at the product they have been given and the product they did not receive. You said it yourself in another post:

Given that Ostfront used STG44's in a similar amount (or more) I'm quite surprised at the outcry. There weren't any 100 page threads in Ostfront with tons of people in an uproar over having "too many assault rifles" in Danzig and similar maps. We designed RO2 with pretty close to the same realism measures that we did in RO1.

If there werent 100 page threads about the subject then and there is now then maybe there is actually something wrong with the current formula. if not with the MKb itself then with the combination of it and the change in map style/ gameplay speed. Something.

These people love what you have done in the past. I myself used to talk about the MOD and RO1 to every person I saw. All my dorm mates knew of the damn games because I was so in love with what this small development team was doing. something for someone like me. I would show them the Mod and the level of realism that the first retail game had and boast that the community helped create this game. It is just such a shame to see how you distantly respond to these people when, as fanatic as they may be, they are just passionate and care about what was done to their niche escape. The market Ramm? We, the old players, are a large percentage of your market. Certainly the most passionate and to tell us that our ideas of how we want things to be is harsh.

You can clearly see the majority of ppl based on a poll, comments, that do not want the MkB42/AVT40 and whatnot. Yet you seem to disregard them and keep dwelling on being impervious to any arguments as if RO2 is great no matter what. The small percentage of the people on the forum doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the community isn't of the same opinion. I think the poll just in another thread very accurately represents more or less the entire base of players.

I absolutely agree with this mans post whole heartily.

As for the MKb
The STG in RO1 was a great and versitile weapon. but easy to use it was not. For one many of the maps were larger in RO1 and it was a slightly harder weapon to control. So range in maps coupled with its wield-ability (or rather the challenge of it) toned down its over use/over abuse slightly. Long range shots required careful placement and a longer time because RO1 had fatigue and sway. It also never had a stupid scope that nerfs it to the point of practically uselessness nor did it have a Bayo that, at least at the date of this thread, goes the complete opposite way and allows you to have one of the most OP attacks in the game... Melee.. Seeing as how close quarter hip shooting is in the trash. (It's easier for me to kill someone from 50 yards than it is from 50 inches!)
I mean the only thing its missing a giant 'WTF?" sticker on the side.

And lets be honest... there are only two reason that I can think of that the AVT was put in instead of something like the AVS-36 (which was actually issued and used during this time)... It was easier to use the same model over + give it a different rate of fire, and because having prototypes is 'cool for the kiddies'. The avt does not match up to the MKb well at all. you see this clearly when you go into any TDM match. You see the majority of players on German with Assault class and the Majority of players on Russian on the Elite Rifleman class (where the AVT should be). At least I avoide it unless i absolutely have to use it and when I do I make sure its on Semi (and for goodness sake just change it to "Full-Auto" and "Semi-Auto"... 'Normal' and 'alternative' are very vague).

I think a fare and relatively simple compromise that has been suggested before, would be to add a mutater/mode that would bring a higher play of realism to players that want it. I higher level of control over weapon loadouts, and perhaps that 'perks' are enabled if at all. I dont care about leveling up my character... I do care about having the same feeling i get when I play RO1 and when I used to play the Mod.

 

[Piscator]

The unique game market was RO1...and then you put out RO2. RO2 is too far into the mainstream gameplay for realism guys and not enough in the arcade shooter range for everyone else. You give all these people on the forum lip and nit pic what the members are saying and tell them that they are wrong and so on, but at the end of the day the majority of these guys on the Forum are here because they LOVE red orchestra and they are seriously and vocally disappointed (who ever they may be) at the product they have been given and the product they did not receive. You said it yourself in another post:


If there werent 100 page threads about the subject then and there is now then maybe there is actually something wrong with the current formula. if not with the MKb itself then with the combination of it and the change in map style/ gameplay speed. Something.

These people love what you have done in the past. I myself used to talk about the MOD and RO1 to every person I saw. All my dorm mates knew of the damn games because I was so in love with what this small development team was doing. something for someone like me. I would show them the Mod and the level of realism that the first retail game had and boast that the community helped create this game. It is just such a shame to see how you distantly respond to these people when, as fanatic as they may be, they are just passionate and care about what was done to their niche escape. The market Ramm? We, the old players, are a large percentage of your market. Certainly the most passionate and to tell us that our ideas of how we want things to be is harsh.


I absolutely agree with this mans post whole heartily.

As for the MKb
The STG in RO1 was a great and versitile weapon. but easy to use it was not. For one many of the maps were larger in RO1 and it was a slightly harder weapon to control. So range in maps coupled with its wield-ability (or rather the challenge of it) toned down its over use/over abuse slightly. Long range shots required careful placement and a longer time because RO1 had fatigue and sway. It also never had a stupid scope that nerfs it to the point of practically uselessness nor did it have a Bayo that, at least at the date of this thread, goes the complete opposite way and allows you to have one of the most OP attacks in the game... Melee.. Seeing as how close quarter hip shooting is in the trash. (It's easier for me to kill someone from 50 yards than it is from 50 inches!)
I mean the only thing its missing a giant 'WTF?" sticker on the side.

And lets be honest... there are only two reason that I can think of that the AVT was put in instead of something like the AVS-36 (which was actually issued and used during this time)... It was easier to use the same model over + give it a different rate of fire, and because having prototypes is 'cool for the kiddies'. The avt does not match up to the MKb well at all. you see this clearly when you go into any TDM match. You see the majority of players on German with Assault class and the Majority of players on Russian on the Elite Rifleman class (where the AVT should be). At least I avoide it unless i absolutely have to use it and when I do I make sure its on Semi (and for goodness sake just change it to "Full-Auto" and "Semi-Auto"... 'Normal' and 'alternative' are very vague).

I think a fare and relatively simple compromise that has been suggested before, would be to add a mutater/mode that would bring a higher play of realism to players that want it. I higher level of control over weapon loadouts, and perhaps that 'perks' are enabled if at all. I dont care about leveling up my character... I do care about having the same feeling i get when I play RO1 and when I used to play the Mod.

I agree with most you say. Gameplay is a bit better now that assault class is less. So TWI saw a problem there and "fixed" it by reducing the assault class. Does not satisfy anyone entirely but it is slightly better to play now.

We need to wait for mods!

 

[Apos]

I'm very disappointed you decided to include the Mkb42 for all assault classes, and I really don't think it's a reasonable comparison to say that RO1 included the MP41 and the PPD40.

The MP41 wasn't different to the MP40 - only an aesthetic difference (correct me if I am wrong), and it was only available to the squad leader class on standard maps (iirc).

The PPD40 was in service with the Soviet army for years before the outbreak of the war, so whilst it may have been rare due to it's low production number, or never mass produced like the PPSH41 I imagine it still existed in significantly higher number than the MKb42 ever did - it was a standard issue weapon at one time or another.

Also - the MP41 and the PPD40 are not game changers, in RO:Ost the MP41 is an MP40 and the PPD wasn't drastically different from the PPSH41.

We can all agree that the inclusion of the MKb42 to the German assault class is a very significant game changing weapon.

I'm not saying it is "game breaking" to add them in the manner in which you have, but it has a dramatic impact on the game in comparison with the loadouts I had been playing since the beta started - I personally had a much better time playing RO:HOS before these "rare" weapons were added.

After all you've done over the years with your integrity and respect for the source material (so to speak) how can you turn around and make an extremely rare prototype weapon as readily available as the MP40 (same applies to the AVT and PPSH41)? Especially when it doesn't add anything to the game - all I can see happening is you losing some of the respect you've earned from your previous approach. It makes no sense to portray Stalingrad in such a detailed and realistic way and then turn around and stick in something like this in this way with no historical consideration.

Judging by the number of threads in these forums about the effectiveness of the MP40, SMG accuracy, and the generally faster pacing (certainly in comparison with RO:Ost) the last thing you'd think the community wanted, or needed was the "rare" weapons to be as readily available as they are.

I'm not really going to get onto how you changed your mind mid-development as you are entitled to do that - it's your game and your development studio - but I am really quite saddened that you decided to do so and that you decided to keep it to yourself until post-release considering how much of a big deal for the (original, and new) forum community it was when the "rare" weapons were announced. It's historically largely nonsense, and you went back on your previously stated plan for implementation for no real gain - I mean, can you tell me how the game benefits?

This,

TWI that's what your community and customers think about rare weapons in RO2.

 

[[tR]Mad Mac]

I brought my forum account out of retirement to come here and say that I really WANT to like RO2, but I'm just not having any fun with it in its current form.

There are many gameplay changes that have improved upon RO1 (suppression, penetration, weapon deployment/mantling), but the decision to increase the availability of semi-automatic rifles and the MKB are game breakers, in my opinion.

A lot of this stems from the fact that rifles are at a disadvantage in the mostly CQ based maps included in the game. That's fine... Understandably, a K98 or Mosin isn't the appropriate weapon for storming a control point in Apartments. However, an MKB or SVT/G41 is pretty much the perfect weapon in all situations, so to the average player there isn't a reason to ever use anything else. When said weapons are readily available and commonly used, I personally don't feel very immersed in the game and instead feel like I'm playing Secret Weapons of WW2.

I guess I just don't understand the rational behind painstakingly recreating real locations for historical accuracy, but then modifying player equipment such that the fights don't even hint at historical authenticity. Please consider at least reducing the number of special weapons available when playing in realism servers.

 

[nebsif]

^ well, they reduced the max number of German assaults by 3 or 2 and for that im grateful, there's still a long way to go tho.

edit: ..the dude I was replying to got his post deleted?.. lots of posts were deleted?
edit2:

I guess I just don't understand the rational behind painstakingly recreating real locations for historical accuracy, but then modifying player equipment such that the fights don't even hint at historical authenticity. Please consider at least reducing the number of special weapons available when playing in realism servers.

This! Same goes for stuff like cover system when you can insta ADS while sprinting as if u have some holo sight (try holding W+shift -> RMB while still holding w+shift..)