Heroes system to unlock tanks as it does with weapons

[VariousNames]

@VariousNames

As stated from TWI, you can gain "Rank" by completing the Offline Training. And we don't know how exactly the Progression System works.

Even if we take the unlock System from BF:BC2 (i think TWI will easily surpass the "quality" of that System), you gain only minor Improvements as you progress through the Ranks. Within 10 to 20 hours of relaxed play your having more than half of everything avaible.
And even in BF:BC2 the last Weapons were seldom the "Best", its all about personal preference. A lot of players prefered the "noob" Assault Rifle, because the diferences between ARs was so minute.

So if BC2 got it right and not bothersome, do you really think TWI will do worse ? Really ? I don't think so, considering they have worked and probably tweaked on it for years now.

BC2 did not get it right for the following reason.

If the weapons are all equal, they should be available to all players at level 1. The grinding portion of acquiring them is totally unnecessary, limits player selection and variety. Only the players willing to buckle down and shoot the same 3 guns for, as you say....lol....10-20 "relaxed" hours (this is a lie BTW, at best a severe underestimate) have access to a bunch of samey assault rifles with remixed stat bars?

Of course, as an aside, there's the "perks" that Bad Company offered that new players did NOT have access to. Even Call of Duty managed to get that part right....if some players should have perks, all players should have them. It's virtually the equivalent of allowing some players to have rifles while others can't.

The solution is obvious, give me all the fun stuff and I'll decide which of it I want to use. The locking system is just a scheme to extort more playtime out of the user.

 

[Dwin]

I'm genuinely distressed that I can explain things in that great of detail and still be misunderstood.

I understand you perfectly. I'm telling you to look at things from a different context.

The only difference is, when you force me to work, or jump through specific hoops for unlockables, now the objects are not available to me at the beginning, whereas if you simply give them to me on the outset, I will have more variety immediately.

I'm not suggesting you remove the skins, extra weapons, tanks, or anything else. I'm suggesting you remove the locking system.

I'm not suggesting that your solution is removing locked content. I'm simply addressing your view that locking content only restricts the amount content/variety available to the player.

Again, it depends on how you look at it. There is always the potential to add more content. If TWI were to remove the unlocking system and make all content available without restriction, one could make the argument that the game lacks the variety of of additional unlocks on top of that. And of course, you would argue that such additional content should simply be provided freely without restriction. And then one would argue again that there could be more unlockable content in addition to that new content, ad nauseum. At what point do you make the distinction between, "lots of content with a few special unlockables" and "not enough content with too many unlockables"? It matters.

And how do you know what route HoS is taking?

I don't. But I'm pretty confident in my assumption that we won't be starting off as Level 1 Rifleman and having to accumulate experience points to unlock grenades and machine guns.

All I'm interested in is leaving totally useless grinding out of the equation, because it's akin to work and therefore is a waste of time because there is no real product here from unlocking videogame items. If the system requires people merely to learn how to use a specialized role, I think that's fine. Forcing them to work for it or jump through hoops is arbitrary and silly.

I agree. But again, you assume the game will be a grind without unlocks, which I highly doubt will be the case (because the devs at TWI aren't stupid).

 

[Dwin]

The locking system is just a scheme to extort more playtime out of the user.

People play a game to have fun, not because they want unlocks. Half your argument is based on the assumption that players won't have any fun because they won't have immediate access to all the toys.

 

[VariousNames]

People play a game to have fun, not because they want unlocks. Half your argument is based on the assumption that players won't have any fun because they won't have immediate access to all the toys.

No, it's not. What you just did was misrepresent my position, which is a formal fallacy called a strawman.

I don't make that assumption. That invalidates the rest of your post, which was based on...a mistaken assumption.

 

[VariousNames]

I'm not suggesting that your solution is removing locked content.

Good!

I'm simply addressing your view that locking content only restricts the amount content/variety available to the player.

That isn't my view.

The fact is that locking content does not reduce the amount of content in the software. Neither does it reduce the amount of content available to players who meet certain qualifications.

What it does is reduce the amount of content available to players who do not meet those qualifications.

[...] you assume the game will be a grind without unlocks, which I highly doubt will be the case (because the devs at TWI aren't stupid).

I don't assume that the game will be a grind without unlocks, I think that the game will include grinding if it ships with unlocks whose requirements entail grinding.

I repeat, grinding is not variety. Grinding is not fun. Grinding is unnecessary for delivering either variety or fun, and ergo anything requiring grinding for unlocks is unnecessary as a game mechanic.

 

[Uffz.Juschkat]

No, it's not. What you just did was misrepresent my position, which is a formal fallacy called a strawman.

I don't make that assumption. That invalidates the rest of your post, which was based on...a mistaken assumption.

REALLY?!?!?! Various, you're going to go that far? Thats a little too intense for me. You got my take on it. I don't think TWI is looking for the possible worst case unlocking perks and weapons scenario, and I don't know if its just me, but it seems that you're over reacting to this all... If TWI can make RO:Ost then they aren't going to make a newer better version (RO:HOS) and ruin it with unrealistic crap. As Winston Churchill said "The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see." Think Ostfront on steroids of pure awesomeness. The end result should be HOS.

 

[Reise]

I don't remember anyone saying weapons will be unlocked with rank, either.

 

[Witzig]

Only the players willing to buckle down and shoot the same 3 guns for, as you say....lol....10-20 "relaxed" hours (this is a lie BTW, at best a severe underestimate) have access to a bunch of samey assault rifles with remixed stat bars?

Well for one, i'd suggest you don't call me a Liar again. Thanks

I've written after to 10 to 20 hours you got 50% unlocked, and thats easily reachable IF you play with Teamwork or are simply an average Player (like me).

And the Weapons are NOT the same, they differ widely (M60 anyone) there is variety in BC2 Weaponry. Could one give all Perks/Unlocks to new Players ? Yes ofc.
But it simply adds an Element which a lot of People enjoy, this might not be to YOUR Liking, but generally speaking a lot of people enjoy it.

But as long as none of us have acess to the Beta, nobody knows how exactly the System HoS will employ works....


You assume that you will take Several hundred hours to get some variety in your Weapons, but that would be stupid, so this will not be what it's going to be.....



EDIT
We're getting a bit Off Topic here btw.

Back to Topic:
I think like others that needing unlocking basic Classes/Tanks ist not a good Idea.

 

[VariousNames]

Well for one, i'd suggest you don't call me a Liar again. Thanks

If you lie again, I will freely call you out on it.

But it simply adds an Element which a lot of People enjoy, this might not be to YOUR Liking, but generally speaking a lot of people enjoy it.

Who? How many? And why?

You assume that you will take Several hundred hours to get some variety in your Weapons, but that would be stupid, so this will not be what it's going to be.....

I didn't assume that. Quit putting words in my mouth.

 

[VariousNames]

REALLY?!?!?! Various, you're going to go that far? Thats a little too intense for me. You got my take on it. I don't think TWI is looking for the possible worst case unlocking perks and weapons scenario, and I don't know if its just me, but it seems that you're over reacting to this all... If TWI can make RO:Ost then they aren't going to make a newer better version (RO:HOS) and ruin it with unrealistic crap. As Winston Churchill said "The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see." Think Ostfront on steroids of pure awesomeness. The end result should be HOS.

Did you even read the post you quoted?

 

[Witzig]

If you lie again, I will freely call you out on it.

Who? How many? And why?

I didn't assume that. Quit putting words in my mouth.

Getting a bit aggressive aren't we ?

It does take 10 to 20 hours to unlock 50% of BF:BC2 unlocks.

EDIT:
Checked a toon i made to get a different Screenname, but never played much. Its got about 13 hrs and 53 thingies unlocked (Starting Guns not included), from total avaible = 85. Thats a tad over 60 % of all avaible unlocks in 13 hrs...
And no i didn't have to use repitive/non-entertaining Gameplay to get there (aka grinding), i just played the Game. It didn't frustrate me either to not have all options avaible to me .

EDIT END

You need more than this to reach max Rank, but those are not unlocks...



And imho there was no grinding in BC2, since grinding is

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.

Quoted from Wikipedia, yeah may slap me now.


Okay i admit playing a Game "might" repetive here and there, but i didn't get bored in my 40 hours of BC2 (that took QUITe longer). This had nothing to do with the unlock System, i just enjoyed the Game itself.



As long as we don't know how the Progression System works, we can't really discuss it anyway....

 

[VariousNames]

Regarding BC2, I still don't believe you.

Regarding unlocks, they're unnecessary. Nothing you've said has even begun to convince me of the contrary. Do you really enjoy jumping through a series of hoops just to have access to a new skin or a new player model?

In any case, I don't.

I've leveled up in dozens of games, unlocked all the cage fighters and the special gameplay modes, and I for one am sick of it. I just want, for once, to be able to purchase a game and actually enjoy all of the features without working for them.

 

[SheepDip]

TWI have already said that the unlocks are not intrusive, they are not easy to get, and they certainly aren't going to be the same as MW2/BC2 whatever.

You aren't "jumping through hoops" to have access to the unlockables, you're playing the game...the same was you would normally but if you work hard enough - and play the right way - and you're good enough you will be rewarded.

The unlockables aren't going to make you a significantly better player, they aren't going to augment you to a whole new level in comparison to other players. What's the big deal exactly? If you don't like the unlockables, ignore them as you play, they're not going to be slapping you in the face...or as you've said before, don't buy the game.

 

[VariousNames]

The unlockables aren't going to make you a significantly better player, they aren't going to augment you to a whole new level in comparison to other players. What's the big deal exactly? If you don't like the unlockables, ignore them as you play, they're not going to be slapping you in the face...or as you've said before, don't buy the game.

It's not a big deal, and I won't be buying it.

 

[Apos]

Guys, no one said, that rank system in Heroes has anything in common with Bad Company 2 or Modern Warfare 2. TWI had been started planning his rank system in 2006 way before those games arrived.

I really think it will works way different than all what we've experienced so far in Other games. The hero system will be more dynamic. In one of the interviews TWI says that rifle man if he will be enough good during battle he can temporary use elite class weapon (SVT-40) for example. What's more, hero won't be a terminator with all unlocked weapons and vehicles, but more like morale inspiring soldier on the field. His present will boost capping power and "morale" whatever it will be.

ps. if you don't like unlocks, hero system you always can play on non ranked servers

 

[Witzig]

Regarding BC2, I still don't believe you.

Regarding unlocks, they're unnecessary. Nothing you've said has even begun to convince me of the contrary. Do you really enjoy jumping through a series of hoops just to have access to a new skin or a new player model?

I do not enjoy jumping through Humps, and i definitly don't enjoy the Grind of MMO play (i don't play these anymore, got tired of it several Years ago). But BC2, wasn't a grind for me, its a shooter.

Start the game and play, even with basic Gear (no unlocks) you can play and compete, even though others have a slight advantage you can have fun. I personally didn't experience it as a burden since in very short amounts of time i got lots of unlocks 53 unlocks in 13 hrs = about 4/hour. Thats not what you get in your average Grindgame (MMOs). And in those 13 hrs i didn't have to do anything but play the Game in a normal way.

To get some of these Badges/Awards etc. one would have to go out of your Way to achieve them, True. But those give you nothing but a virtual Badge, can be fun to get them all for some, but it's by no means required.




Though to wrap it up:
I agree with you that grinding ain't fun.
I will play HoS as i did Ostfront, RO 3.3 and before and enjoy the Game, that i might get some Rank is secondary too me. This System won't be like anything you/i know. And knowing TWI you will be able to fully participate in the Game without Grinding.

 

[VariousNames]

I do not enjoy jumping through Humps, and i definitly don't enjoy the Grind of MMO play (i don't play these anymore, got tired of it several Years ago). But BC2, wasn't a grind for me, its a shooter.

Start the game and play, even with basic Gear (no unlocks) you can play and compete, even though others have a slight advantage you can have fun. I personally didn't experience it as a burden since in very short amounts of time i got lots of unlocks 53 unlocks in 13 hrs = about 4/hour. Thats not what you get in your average Grindgame (MMOs). And in those 13 hrs i didn't have to do anything but play the Game in a normal way.

So what was good about the unlock system? What is one good reason for its inclusion.

Though to wrap it up:
I agree with you that grinding ain't fun.
I will play HoS as i did Ostfront, RO 3.3 and before and enjoy the Game, that i might get some Rank is secondary too me. This System won't be like anything you/i know. And knowing TWI you will be able to fully participate in the Game without Grinding.

But playing the game IS fun? Then why can't we just have a game without unlocks?

 

[Witzig]

So what was good about the unlock system? What is one good reason for its inclusion.


But playing the game IS fun? Then why can't we just have a game without unlocks?

I don't mind it coming out without Ranks, or with Ranks.


We could but TWI thought about that for several Years, before other implemented such a System. I guess it might be a new better way of implementing it.

Even Games like WWIIOL have such a system, (i personally do not like that too much), but this is included in this Game (WWIIOL) to let people get experience with the lower Tier equipment so they do not "waste" the higher tier Equipment (which is rarer).

 

[SheepDip]

But playing the game IS fun? Then why can't we just have a game without unlocks?

Because TWI decided they were going to include them - 4 years ago. So it's in there. Too bad. Stop expecting it to be like other unlockable systems. Aside from the fundamentals of "Good play = reward" - It's not going to be the same.

It's not a big deal, and I won't be buying it.

Then why are you still posting on this forum? Given that you now have zero interest in the game & you'll not be buying it, what does it matter how the game turns out?

It's not like this discussion is anything but circular by now.

 

[BlackLabel]

Unlocking entire tanks for service? No. The IS2 wasnt around for the entire conflict, nor was it anyway near as occuring as the T34 - having a top-level guy spawning IS2's in early war maps makes no sense. However, the cosmetical suggestions, especially with the barrell-bands, I strongly support.

You forgot that only another IS2 can unlock the IS2 itself. Wich practicly means you should at least play 120h of RO:Hoes in 2 weeks to get your phunny little newbie tanker status upgraded...