[Game] Heroes and Generals (WW2 MMO FPS/RTS)

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Moyako

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 10, 2008
2,163
636
0
Venezuela
www.xfire.com
Why it "doesn't look good for the game"? There's nothing wrong with arcadey games, and it's positive that the developers are clear with that from the start.

The problem is those developers who claim that their game is the most realistic stuff evah, and it turns to be arcade (MW for example).
 

DiedTrying

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 17, 2011
1,433
843
0
USA Prime Credit
you'll never find a massive online war sim. The markets are contradictory.

Sims are niche, nothing "massive" about them.

I always have ARMA to fall back on though
 

Flogger23m

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
3,438
538
0
WIIONLINE and Arma2 are the worse examples to use. Not only are they not realistic but are damn boring with clunky game mechanics and hard to navigate GUI.


ArmA 2 is unrealistic in some ways such as the lack of animations, or the speed and ease of doing certain tasks such as setting up mounted weapons and reloading anti tank weapons, but it is defiantly a realistic infantry simulated. Mounting into vehicles, being dropped off, large scale operations with realistic goals, the scope, ect. makes it a simulator. To argue otherwise is very naive. You don't have to like the series, but it does offer a more realistic portrayal of infantry combat than any other game in history.
 

HLudwig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
227
212
0
ArmA 2 is unrealistic in some ways such as the lack of animations, or the speed and ease of doing certain tasks such as setting up mounted weapons and reloading anti tank weapons, but it is defiantly a realistic infantry simulated. Mounting into vehicles, being dropped off, large scale operations with realistic goals, the scope, ect. makes it a simulator. To argue otherwise is very naive. You don't have to like the series, but it does offer a more realistic portrayal of infantry combat than any other game in history.

I don't find Arma2 a "realistic portray of infantry combat" when you have AI in span of 20 seconds go from bionic eyes to the world's dumbest AI.

But to be fair, if it weren't for the Project Reality team, there still wouldn't be a true and often times filled PvP server.
 

Flogger23m

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
3,438
538
0
I don't find Arma2 a "realistic portray of infantry combat" when you have AI in span of 20 seconds go from bionic eyes to the world's dumbest AI.

But to be fair, if it weren't for the Project Reality team, there still wouldn't be a true and often times filled PvP server.

The AI can be very dumb at times, but no game offers a proper scale or missions for infantry combat. And to be fair, I can't think of an infantry game which has AI that has to react to as many variables as the AI in ArmA 2 do. So while poor, it is the only example in its class.

Hopefully as time goes on the AI will become more intelligent.
 

HLudwig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
227
212
0
The AI can be very dumb at times, but no game offers a proper scale or missions for infantry combat. And to be fair, I can't think of an infantry game which has AI that has to react to as many variables as the AI in ArmA 2 do. So while poor, it is the only example in its class.

Hopefully as time goes on the AI will become more intelligent.

The point is that I don't want to play with AI. And if that is the definition of a "sim", I don't want to play that genre of games. I want a tactical shooter with historical accuracy and multiplayer - PvP.

To answer your last question. I can say with a high level of certainty that in the next 10 years you will still have scripted bots. Why? If the US government spent millions on private research firms and universities to try and create artificial intelligence hasn't produced much, then how is a small game developer going to pull it off?
 

Murphy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
7,067
743
0
35
liandri.darkbb.com
You do, of course, realize that artificial intelligence that has to process and navigate real terrain has nothing whatsoever to do with bots in a game that have to behave somewhat reasonably...:rolleyes:
Besides, we already have bots. They just still stink because they can't properly adapt to close quarters, for example. So they either ridiculously slow reaction times in close combat or shoot you in an instant from a mile away. Or they try their open ground formations with buildings in the way and get stuck and move through cities in a retarded fashion. Those are all things that can be addressed.

We really don't need practical, war-zone applicable AI the military may or may not be working on for whatever purpose...

Besides everything else: ArmA is not a simulation. It doesn't simulate anything, therefore it's not a simulation. In Forza you can try and simulate with reasonable accuracy how different rubber mixtures or suspension settings affect your car's handling. That's a simulation.
ArmA doesn't simulate jack. It has unrealistic cars, unrealistic weaponry, horrible AI, clunky movement, terrible tanks... It's a game. A game that tries to convey a feeling of authenticity and depending on how far you're willing to immerse yourself into it despite its problems it does a pretty good job with that. Better than any other game anyway, I'd say. But it's still a game. Not a simulation.
I know the military uses a special version of Flashpoint for training purposes, but that's along the lines of "if you see this happen, what do you do? Excellent". It's like an interactive driver's license practicing game. It does what it sets out to do reasonably well, but it's not a simulation.

And it'll be quite a while until we see a simulation of war. Flight sims, yes, racing sims, yes, shooting range sims, maybe even hunting sims, yes. But an actual war simulation with the amount of detail that it's a playable shooter and not a statistics-driven table-top... not any time soon.
 
Last edited:

Flogger23m

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
3,438
538
0
The point is that I don't want to play with AI. And if that is the definition of a "sim", I don't want to play that genre of games. I want a tactical shooter with historical accuracy and multiplayer - PvP.

To answer your last question. I can say with a high level of certainty that in the next 10 years you will still have scripted bots. Why? If the US government spent millions on private research firms and universities to try and create artificial intelligence hasn't produced much, then how is a small game developer going to pull it off?

Player VS Player doesn't equal simulation. Typically it turns into something like RO or at best Project Reality. Unless you can get together 100s of people to properly play their roles (some marking positions for a mortar for a few hours, others driving an unarmed transport truck) it will be impossible to make a simulation with PvP only. And this is for any type of military simulation. If you don't want to play simulators, that is fine, there are some decent half realistic games out there like RO1 and Wings of Prey.


Besides everything else: ArmA is not a simulation. It doesn't simulate anything, therefore it's not a simulation.

Quite the opposite. It does a very nice job of simulating infantry combat. The weapons are modelled nicely, though they lack proper animations, 3D scopes, and some other usable accessories. But no game has done weapons perfectly, aside from maybe Infiltration. RO1 certainly did not, with the insane recoil for certain weapons, to the disappearing MG42 belt when you press the R key. But the key factors are there: large size battle fields, logistics, transports, aircraft, realistic engagement ranges, artillery, ect.

The vehicles are poorly done, but that is not the focus of the game (even if BIS marketing says otherwise). They are mainly there to enhance the infantry. AI can always be undependable, so it is very important to have the vehicles controllable. That being said, ArmA 3 will include the ToH flight model for the AH-6 and some other helicopters I believe so they are getting better.

Though we're going off topic so I'll stop here.
 

dogbadger

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2006
3,230
553
0
here to kill your monster
i'm no expert but i don't think the process of producing effective AI in games is similar to true government lead AI projects in so far as creating actual 'learning' intellegence -

It's an illusion created by programming as many variables and if/then routines in as possible ie..
If you have the upper hand chase down enemy, if you are out gunned retreat to cover or withdraw, if player uses weapon/vehicle x counter with weapon y, if alerted to level x respond at level y and so on and so forth - as well as certain decisions made regarding use of cover with respect to the direction of the threat, and while these reactions are given a weight of priority when all are taken into account, a random factor ideally can be added to produce less predictable human like behavior.

Do games put enough into AI programming? In many ppl's opinion not at all.

Why not? I guess PvsP is a stronger seller anyway , staged events seem to suffice for many game campaigns, it's easier to tout other features of a game rather than say 'advanced AI' which is what every game says anyway.

Arma etc is a fair attempt, but there's only so much they can figure in when depicting a huge battle environment with many players and vehicles - all of which already effect performance to a great extent.
They leave much it to the mission editor in the form of triggers to produce a relaistic experience.

I don't think programmers in any way lack the capability of producing top AI.
But truley complex AI variables will have a big impact on performance, and while most ppl are demanding on what they actually see in terms of visuals and effects, there's very little space left for anything that elaborate i guess.
 

DiedTrying

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 17, 2011
1,433
843
0
USA Prime Credit
Back on subject fellows lest ye be reported =/

The game hasn't seen an Alpha update in a few weeks, but the next one is a couple days away and is going to be rather large, I suspect. Lots of fixes/changes/new things including testing of the strategy portion of the game.
 
Last edited:

HLudwig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
227
212
0
i'm no expert but i don't think the process of producing effective AI in games is similar to true government lead AI projects in so far as creating actual 'learning' intellegence -

It's an illusion created by programming as many variables and if/then routines in as possible ie..
If you have the upper hand chase down enemy, if you are out gunned retreat to cover or withdraw, if player uses weapon/vehicle x counter with weapon y, if alerted to level x respond at level y and so on and so forth - as well as certain decisions made regarding use of cover with respect to the direction of the threat, and while these reactions are given a weight of priority when all are taken into account, a random factor ideally can be added to produce less predictable human like behavior.

Do games put enough into AI programming? In many ppl's opinion not at all.

Why not? I guess PvsP is a stronger seller anyway , staged events seem to suffice for many game campaigns, it's easier to tout other features of a game rather than say 'advanced AI' which is what every game says anyway.

Arma etc is a fair attempt, but there's only so much they can figure in when depicting a huge battle environment with many players and vehicles - all of which already effect performance to a great extent.
They leave much it to the mission editor in the form of triggers to produce a relaistic experience.

I don't think programmers in any way lack the capability of producing top AI.
But truley complex AI variables will have a big impact on performance, and while most ppl are demanding on what they actually see in terms of visuals and effects, there's very little space left for anything that elaborate i guess.


That's why I used the word "scripted." The only reason AI is used by game developers is because bots isn't a good marketing term to use. Could you imagine if EA said they are producing a game with advanced bots?

Anyhow, I don't think we have to worry about bots in Heroes and Generals, since it seems to be a pure PvP game, which I'm happy about. I can't say the same thing about the "arcadey" direction the game is going in.
 
Last edited:

Skew

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 11, 2006
1,027
17
0
Denmark
I don't find Arma2 a "realistic portray of infantry combat" when you have AI in span of 20 seconds go from bionic eyes to the world's dumbest AI.

The point is that I don't want to play with AI.

You play with the AI, yet you say you don't want to play with them?

I don't even.

Do you often look for features in a game you dislike against the other, then play those rather than what you enjoy?
 
Last edited:

HLudwig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
227
212
0
You play with the AI, yet you say you don't want to play with them?

I don't even.

Yeah, that's exactly why I stopped playing Arma. I thought Arma 2/OA would be different, but it was the same old CO-OP only servers, which that type of game play grows very boring after, oh, 60 seconds.

I then come back to play the Invasion44 mod, which had a PvP only server that was hosted on the weekends by Hogan's Heroes, but that soon died along with the mod.

I also heard good reviews that the PR team has actually delivered on providing a true PvP experience to Arma2/OA, but don't feel like downloading yet another mod.

Do you often look for features in a game you dislike against the other, then play those rather than what you enjoy?
Um, you do realize that the FPS market is dominated by zero tactical shooters with any shred of realism, right? I mean, unless you know of a game or games that the rest of us don't know exist and are forced to like Arma or play games that are already dated, such as Darkest Hour and Project Reality and Resistance and Liberation.
 
Last edited:

DiedTrying

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 17, 2011
1,433
843
0
USA Prime Credit
I see you are getting into it with Organic on the other forum...

He's typically a good guy, but he's being quite myopic in that thread.
 
Last edited:

HLudwig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
227
212
0
heroesgenerals_016.jpg