That does not change how they would severely devalue the Commando to near nothingness. It still becomes equally as effective as or more effective than even the SCAR for that matter if you were to look at cost v. weight v. damage. Commando would only exist for fans of Assault Rifles or added challenge, no longer for practicality. It also doesn't change how the Lever Action would be severely depreciated (again looking at cost v. weight v. damage; also firerate and reload). Having them be Sharpshooter weapons or not at all makes little difference in the implications it would bring if they were to one shot crawlers on Hell on Earth with bodyshots.
Handcannon thread. Theory, balancing, anything about it.
- Thread starter Utopia-Phoenix
- Start date
That does not change how they would severely devalue the Commando to near nothingness. It still becomes equally as effective as or more effective than even the SCAR for that matter if you were to look at cost v. weight v. damage. Commando would only exist for fans of Assault Rifles or added challenge, no longer for practicality. It also doesn't change how the Lever Action would be severely depreciated (again looking at cost v. weight v. damage; also firerate and reload). Having them be Sharpshooter weapons or not at all makes little difference in the implications it would bring if they were to one shot crawlers on Hell on Earth with bodyshots.
Hey smarty-pants, you're forgetting that the assault rifles have way, way larger magazines, way more ammo, shoot way faster, reload way faster, and are cheaper to maintain and come with giant damage bonuses that puts them way over pistols in terms of performance.
Mag-dumping a Lv6 mando's bullpup into a single zed will guarantee that you will do so much more damage than a mag-dumping an off-perk handcannon.
1 less shot on zeds like sirens and husks can be a game changing factor, and in fact i have had very many instances where i have spammed the magnum into the face of either zed at close range, and it has saved my hide. the penetration isnt much a big deal, but 1 more shot on stalkers can also be a deal breaker, considering that is only 2 dead stalkers instead of 3 if you do happen to miss your headshots, which can happen especially in times of confusion such as when the camp is compromised and you find yourself having to abandon and kite, or do you always hit all of your headshots in every situation?
yes aiming for the head is always the best bet, and while yes it is a sharp weapon, you dont always use it LIKE a sharp weapon offperk. take demo for example, the times i would be using the magnum is when a zed(s) happens to get in my face, or i am helping clear trash around a teammate as he/she dispatches say a scrake, where i wouldn't want to shoot my grenades near. In this case, the spammability of the magnum also comes in use as it can cut through stalkers and crawlers fairly easily, obviously not what sharps are intended to do, but a niche role that it fills well, while not being gamebreaking or overpowered in any way due to the low ammo capacity and moderate reload offperk. given the demo's extremely shoddy excuse for a weapon that provides some closeup protection (m4203), i think the magnum is an excellent backup when SHTF or you are not in a position to fire grenades. It is also quite useful as commando for dropping decapped bodies if you need to conserve ammo, and just an added little punch if you need to finish off some zeds and your rifles are empty, or do you always perfectly time your reloads and have your guns locked and loaded in every situation as well?
now of course the Mk23 outshines the magnum in this area given its larger clip and comparable damage, which can be sustained over a longer period of time, which is why i think it should weigh 3 and have its penentration severely reduced or even removed, so you must sacrifice certain loadouts if you want to use the more effective pistol, though some will obviously remain possible, and there really isn't much you can do about that without nerfing everything into oblivion.
perhaps im just not as good a player as you, but i have found myself in many situations where the magnums punch has pulled through for me, and given your suggested balances, i fear that the magnum would even LESS used, which is a shame given how well it is balanced currently IMO
123 damage, for crawlers, I understand, and I think that could be a great change.
But why 140? Do you actually have some reasons to take it that far? If not, through unintended consequences, it might get OP.
For instance, you could then kill scrakes with 8 onperk headshots, as opposed to 9 with 123, and the current 10. Not needing to reload, you could kill a scrake in 2 seconds flat.
A wee nerf on the MK23 would be good too. I'd recommend decreasing penetration, to where it only hits two zeds, and only hits the second zed with 40 damage, enough to decap trash.
Or, there's my other idea for the MK23, but I imagine most won't people won't like it. Give mk23 only 40 damage, (low, but always decaps trash) very low recoil, (alter the viewmodel ADS recoil animation too, along with the actual aim displacement) no penetration, 200 cost. Now it's just an upgrade from the 9mm, and the pistols have a nice, clear incremental balance of 9mm < MK23 < .44 < HC.
And make dual 9mms weigh 1, but TWI will never do that, because clearly they specifically want them to be terrible. How else could they have not done something about them yet, after years of hearing the same complaints?
But why 140? Do you actually have some reasons to take it that far? If not, through unintended consequences, it might get OP.
For instance, you could then kill scrakes with 8 onperk headshots, as opposed to 9 with 123, and the current 10. Not needing to reload, you could kill a scrake in 2 seconds flat.
A wee nerf on the MK23 would be good too. I'd recommend decreasing penetration, to where it only hits two zeds, and only hits the second zed with 40 damage, enough to decap trash.
Or, there's my other idea for the MK23, but I imagine most won't people won't like it. Give mk23 only 40 damage, (low, but always decaps trash) very low recoil, (alter the viewmodel ADS recoil animation too, along with the actual aim displacement) no penetration, 200 cost. Now it's just an upgrade from the 9mm, and the pistols have a nice, clear incremental balance of 9mm < MK23 < .44 < HC.
And make dual 9mms weigh 1, but TWI will never do that, because clearly they specifically want them to be terrible. How else could they have not done something about them yet, after years of hearing the same complaints?
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ding ding ding, we have a winner, maybe raise the damage a bit higher than 40, since the 9mm is 35 iirc
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Basically make the Mk23 move from versatile nice gun to ****-tier from what it used to be. I don't like it.
I had the idea of doing something similar to that, but it was to be a seperate pistol - a Browning HP (brit army version), and have a counterpart for the same tier that emphasies ROF/capacity over damage, that being a Glock 17. Both would be
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So it's a second 9mm that I need to pay for that does the same thing as the 9mm but has a smaller mag? How does making the MK23 worse make the .44 or the deagle better than they currently are? It doesn't. It only improves them comparatively. That's not an actual improvement...
I'm not sure if I'm still at the "overwhelmed" stage as much as having progressed into "dgaf" territory. It's amusing either way. Making pistols non-perk-specific would be an interesting idea but I can't see it happening. Since they're (in all likelihood) going to stay as Sharpshooter weapons it would be nice, as you said, to try and have them fill a niche than be the same weapon with a different model.
brick_top1982 said:
You read my mind Nips.
Anyway, I say just remove penetration from the MK23 completely (If you want to bump the weight up as well, fine but I don't think it's completely necessary). Now the Magnum and HC have a good advantage over it, but they still wouldn't be better in all situations.
As for the Magnum and HC, I think they're fine as is and don't need any changes.
Having the MK23 be in its own, low tier would be more of a niche than being on par with the handcannon, I think. The low price would make it greatly more approachable as an offperk sidearm. I was considering a weight of 1 for it too. If you think the MK23 after my proposed changes would be a waste of ram, then how would the addition of a hi power, serving the same role, not be?
Spicy, did you miss the part about 40 damage causing 1-shot offperk trash decaps? That makes a world of difference. For example, check out how bad the Bullpup is on HoE, compared to on Sui. Up to 55 damage could be fine, too, though.
As far as actual improvements, I don't think it's quite unanimous that everyone wants those. When TWI added battle rifles, an anti materiel rifle, triple med guns, etc, the game got easier, and not everyone liked that. If I'm the very only person that would like the game to be made a little harder in some respects in the process of future non-urgent weapon balancing, though, please ignore my suggestions for that, TWI.
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Alright I've been thinking about it and if you guys really want the Handcannon to one shot Crawlers (if this is done, I think other balancing changes are in order) then here are a list of changes I came up with for all 3 pistols:
Handcannon
Increase base damage to 123
Increase recoil by 35%
Increase base reload time from 2.2 seconds to 3.7 seconds
Increase base price to
Handcannon
Increase base damage to 123
Increase recoil by 35%
Increase base reload time from 2.2 seconds to 3.7 seconds
Increase base price to
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I like the idea of a pistol that behaves like a tiny M14, but I don't think that the Mk23 should be it.
We still need a balanced all-rounder, then we have the more specialised .44 and HC. In fact I thought that the 44 would be the one to get the mega headshot bonuses, the HC being the body-smasher, and the Mk23 sitting somewhere inbetween, but with no penetration and its advantage a bit more in balance and speed.
Also I don't like those price changes.
We still need a balanced all-rounder, then we have the more specialised .44 and HC. In fact I thought that the 44 would be the one to get the mega headshot bonuses, the HC being the body-smasher, and the Mk23 sitting somewhere inbetween, but with no penetration and its advantage a bit more in balance and speed.
Also I don't like those price changes.
Ok, I'm willing to compromise with DarkFalz's suggestion. Though the Handcannon in this new suggestion is still able to single-bodyshot crawlers, at least there is compensation to its added strength that penalizes poor aim. Also the price of 800 is a good option (maybe 750 would be slightly better but still decent nonetheless) since players spawn in as Sharpshooter anyhow. If players die as perks other than Sharpshooter, then they must deal with the higher cost as a trade off for choosing the Handcannon (which would outclass the LaR at this point since it has MUCH more ammo and penetration, though it had a long, clip reload).
As for the .44 Magnum suggestion, I partially agree. There are still hardly any differences in terms of body-shots and headshots (looking at .44 Magnum vs. the Handcannon). At least penetration decreases, but since the proposed damage decrease hardly changes it in terms of function (on HoE) I'd probably like penetration to go down one more to 2 (since you are also decreasing recoil so you can land quicker, more consistent headshots).
And for the MK23, I can agree wholeheartedly. Now there will be a gun that feels much more rewarding when used properly.
As far as I know, you have more experience at this game than I do. I've stopped playing other perks at ~1,000 hours and have stuck to M14 + LaR Sharpshooter (~95% of the time and since I dislike penetration weapons) and Claymore + Katana + Handcannon/M79 or Katana + Axe + LaR Berserker (~5% of the time) since then, meaning that I no longer can play other perks as well outside of basic combos and a few advanced ones. If you talk of perks outside of Sharpshooter and Berserker, then you're probably more knowledgeable and I'm all ears. I'm just not for changes that blur the niches between perks, but the situations that you present do not demonstrate that, which makes what you say a totally valid point in my book.
My feelings for Hell on Earth is that it no longer is as rewarding as it used to be. Sure, some of that could be because I slowly got better at this game over long hours, but weapons that reward poor play also play a major factor.
thats the point spicy, make the Mk23 into more of sidearm instead of having it be the end all of sharps pistols. I suggested a higher base damage than azukis, so the Mk23 would effectively become a really nice upgrade from the 9mm for offperk users, while also gaining the sharpshooter bonus which im sure would still drop all trash in 1 shot, whilst removing penetration. Mk23 would still have the highest mag size, a quick reload speed, and the highest ammo pool, thus still making it quite useful as sharpshooter. Not to mention you can still carry magnum/mk23 as bowsharp.
of course this does nothing to "improve" the .44 and the HC, because they dont NEED any improvement, they are fine the way they are, just devalued greatly ever since the induction of the MK23 into the vanilla game. Nerfing the Mk slightly brings all the pistols in line with eachother, so each has its clear role.
The Handcannon would remain the powerful sharp pistol it always has been, the Magnum would be the go to offperk weapon when you need a little more punch, and the Mk23 would be the versatile pistol that is good offperk and as sharp, but characteristically different than both the HC and magnum due to no penetration, and much higher mag capacity, plus the highest ammo pool.
Clear niches for all the pistols, without nerfing everything into oblivion, bow users still have the luxury of carrying both, and offperk users have the choice between a little penetration and higher base damage, or higher mag capacity/ammo pool for longer sustained fire and thus possibly more dead specimens per clip, plus it being dirt cheap to afford at 200.
i can sympathize with that feeling and i totally agree about weapons that reward poor play, but i do NOT think the magnum is one of these weapons.
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Functionality-wise, the .44 Magnum is basically as powerful as the Handcannon (Or so I believe). Since I also believe that the Handcannon is balanced in terms of its ability, I also believe that the Magnum is too (in terms of functionality); however, the Magnum let's you carry more things that the Handcannon does not permit you to carry. The balance between its function in game and its weight was why I was somewhat against. But then again, I've been looking at this only from the Sharpshooter's side. I think reducing penetration to 2 instead of reducing its damage then will be a better option then. Allowing a Sharpshooter to decap only 2 specimens will be good-enough compensation while still not taking away too much from off-perk usage.
The handcannon is suppose to be the pistol with the most power hence why a weapon with a small mag and small ammo pool weighs the most.......
HoE flare gun,off perk, kills crawler one shot
HoE handcannon doesn't.....
You can shoot a husk 3 times with mk23 just as fast as you can put two into him with hc, so why would you pick hc over mk/mag combo? As things stand you wouldn't.
I like to sit in the back with my crossbow and my job is to take the big boys and protect my guys while they are reloading, I've always picked hc because I could destroy a group of crawlers switch to my bow and stun that scrake who just turned the corner....you telling me from now on I need to buy an off perk flare gun to do this? Either fix the hc or take it out of the game because as things stand its useless.
HoE flare gun,off perk, kills crawler one shot
HoE handcannon doesn't.....
You can shoot a husk 3 times with mk23 just as fast as you can put two into him with hc, so why would you pick hc over mk/mag combo? As things stand you wouldn't.
I like to sit in the back with my crossbow and my job is to take the big boys and protect my guys while they are reloading, I've always picked hc because I could destroy a group of crawlers switch to my bow and stun that scrake who just turned the corner....you telling me from now on I need to buy an off perk flare gun to do this? Either fix the hc or take it out of the game because as things stand its useless.
MK23 is slightly better than HC now. Magnum is way behind.
#1. HC one-shotting a Crawler would outshine anything out there. HC is balanced, leave it.
#2. Magnum reload should be faster, it has better DPS than MK23 or Magnum but its effectiveness is greatly reduced because of slow reload.
#3. MK23 damage should be nerfed for a small bit, or its weight should be increased because it works as a mini-M14 right now and actually outshines Magnum in every aspect.
#4. Dual 9mm should only weight 2 or 3 blocks, not 4; that's a stealth nerf to other counterparts. Who uses dual 9mm for God's sake?
#1. HC one-shotting a Crawler would outshine anything out there. HC is balanced, leave it.
#2. Magnum reload should be faster, it has better DPS than MK23 or Magnum but its effectiveness is greatly reduced because of slow reload.
#3. MK23 damage should be nerfed for a small bit, or its weight should be increased because it works as a mini-M14 right now and actually outshines Magnum in every aspect.
#4. Dual 9mm should only weight 2 or 3 blocks, not 4; that's a stealth nerf to other counterparts. Who uses dual 9mm for God's sake?
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